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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:02:04 GMT -5
I'd get a Samadhi check up if I were you, it's defective and then followed by TMT... We are not 'in' this body or 'in' any body or 'in' the world... We are the 'awareness' in which bodily sensations and the world arise... Haha, TMT on that last bit, TMI on the first bit, and TMWL on the middle bit ;-) (To Much Imagination) (To Much Word Lawyering) Your aware of that??  |
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Post by amit on Jul 16, 2013 16:03:14 GMT -5
It seems there is a clear distinction between the two. 1) The former takes the view that practice is required and that there is a doer who can practice. 2) The latter holds that there is no such requirement and no doer. What is it about the character of a seeker that is attracted to one rather than the other? If there any reading who would describe themselves as seekers, I would be interested to hear your views. amit Hello Amit, Your questions contain certain assumptions that create a false premise. I am very much in favor of practice, despite have no "doer" ;-) When I started on this path a couple decades ago, it was Martial Arts study that lead me to spirituality practices, inquiry, and meditation. Frankly, it was probably a desire for more POWER and effectiveness in Martial Arts that got me intellectually studying meditation, though, in hindsight I have been undoing into Samadhi since I was a small child, I'm a naturally slow breather, and for as long as I can remember I have been sitting so still that breathing sometimes stops with no awareness of self, and in my teenage years I was a long distance runner and would run for hours in a kind of Relative Samadhi where the body was "floating" effortlessly across the miles at speed with no awareness of self. Later, when Martial Artist that I respected started talking about Han and no mind meditation, it drew me in and a more formal study was pursued. But VERY quickly it stopped being about increased effectiveness, and became more about Enlightenment, which in turn was pursued because I had always had an insatiable curiosity about God and the nature of our existence etc. Meditation practice became about finding methods to see what was beyond the Mind's limited capacity to "see", or rather, increasing my capacity to see my true nature and the true nature of existence. I can't say that my "character" lead me to this pursuit, as that curiosity has been there since the first moment that I recognized that I was having word based thoughts, a moment I remember very clearly, along with the conversation that I had with my Mother about it :-) These days, Practice is recommended, but not in the false parameters that your question put forth. There is no goal to practice, nor a doer present or imagined, it just is. It's like a roller coaster ride in a way, in that I settle into Samadhi, and then later in the day "come up" into mind movement, and then settle back into Samadhi, over and over throughout the day. It just happens, no doer required ;-) It should be noted, that Ramana, Niz, Osho, UG, all them continued "practice" long after letting go of doing, knowing, understanding, or self ;-) While you are in this body, there is a benefit from "practice". Though no "goal" or benefit should be pursued in "practice". Hi Steven. Perhaps we can clarify this by the following question. Would you say that practice is in any way helpful in terms bringing about realization/enlightenment/liberation/awakening or what ever term you may prefer? amit |
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Post by serpentqueen on Jul 16, 2013 16:04:05 GMT -5
Can falling in love be a practice? It's THE practice of the Sufi's ;-) Okay I revise my answer again. That's my practice. Fall in love and fall in love good. Let it break your heart into pieces, and fall in love all over again. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:06:11 GMT -5
Haha, TMT on that last bit, TMI on the first bit, and TMWL on the middle bit ;-) (To Much Imagination) (To Much Word Lawyering) Your aware of that?? Your Aware of this?? haha, seems like an odd thing to "finger point" over Kinda like? HAHa, Your Breathing? Which is really more word lawyering lol Why are words so important? |
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Post by amit on Jul 16, 2013 16:09:20 GMT -5
Hi Top, I had not heard of that. Thanks. Saying that a practice is not required would seem more inclined towards 2). Did he believe in realization and have a view about how it came about that was not just an accident whilst practicing? Yes it is not surprising that a seeker takes up a practice. Compared with prescriptions, 2)is rare, may not even be heard, and even if heard not easily understood bearing in mind the likely conditioning of the character to do something if there is a need. It seems to be less so with the increase in Neo-Adviata speakers but its still a minority description alongside the many paths and practices on offer. "Without acting on the intention to become self-aware and conscious, can there be movement in that direction?" In my view resonance requires nothing. I'll repeat something here as don't know how to refer you to it:- "That inexplicable, elemental tug. That surprising sudden feeling you've been waiting for, when you find something and just fall for it. Illogically, irresistibly, and find yourself thinking of nothing else. Attraction and the dream of love to follow that keeps the imagination alive, that makes life pop and sparkle and fizz". I doubt if that can be taught or practiced. It may result in the end of the feeling of disconnection but is not required to bring about connection for according to 2) disconnection is already impossible if All is One. It must already that not resonating or realizing. amit Can falling in love be a practice? Hi Serpentqueen, "Can falling in love be a practice?" Not if its "That inexplicable, elemental tug. That surprising sudden feeling you've been waiting for, when you find something and just fall for it. Illogically, irresistibly, and find yourself thinking of nothing else. Attraction and the dream of love to follow that keeps the imagination alive, that makes life pop and sparkle and fizz" Would you say falling in love was different to that for you? What would you say about it? amit |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:12:16 GMT -5
Hello Amit, Your questions contain certain assumptions that create a false premise. I am very much in favor of practice, despite have no "doer" ;-) When I started on this path a couple decades ago, it was Martial Arts study that lead me to spirituality practices, inquiry, and meditation. Frankly, it was probably a desire for more POWER and effectiveness in Martial Arts that got me intellectually studying meditation, though, in hindsight I have been undoing into Samadhi since I was a small child, I'm a naturally slow breather, and for as long as I can remember I have been sitting so still that breathing sometimes stops with no awareness of self, and in my teenage years I was a long distance runner and would run for hours in a kind of Relative Samadhi where the body was "floating" effortlessly across the miles at speed with no awareness of self. Later, when Martial Artist that I respected started talking about Han and no mind meditation, it drew me in and a more formal study was pursued. But VERY quickly it stopped being about increased effectiveness, and became more about Enlightenment, which in turn was pursued because I had always had an insatiable curiosity about God and the nature of our existence etc. Meditation practice became about finding methods to see what was beyond the Mind's limited capacity to "see", or rather, increasing my capacity to see my true nature and the true nature of existence. I can't say that my "character" lead me to this pursuit, as that curiosity has been there since the first moment that I recognized that I was having word based thoughts, a moment I remember very clearly, along with the conversation that I had with my Mother about it :-) These days, Practice is recommended, but not in the false parameters that your question put forth. There is no goal to practice, nor a doer present or imagined, it just is. It's like a roller coaster ride in a way, in that I settle into Samadhi, and then later in the day "come up" into mind movement, and then settle back into Samadhi, over and over throughout the day. It just happens, no doer required ;-) It should be noted, that Ramana, Niz, Osho, UG, all them continued "practice" long after letting go of doing, knowing, understanding, or self ;-) While you are in this body, there is a benefit from "practice". Though no "goal" or benefit should be pursued in "practice". Hi Steven. Perhaps we can clarify this by the following question. Would you say that practice is in any way helpful in terms bringing about realization/enlightenment/liberation/awakening or what ever term you may prefer? amit Leave out the words "bringing about", and I'll say yes as a short answer ;-) As a longer answer, Enlightenment only exists in Mind, outside of Mind their is no enlightenment, let go of Mind and enlightenment neither exists, or is needed in any way. Or, from another perspective, Samadhi IS enlightenment, though in Samadhi enlightenment doesn't exist. I'll let the word lawyers decide if Samadhi is actually a practice, though I call it a practice in that there are "methods" for undoing "into" Samadhi. How do you define "Enlightenment" Amit? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:14:37 GMT -5
Your aware of that?? Your Aware of this?? haha, seems like an odd thing to "finger point" over Kinda like? HAHa, Your Breathing? Which is really more word lawyering lol Why are words so important? Wow such a simple action and yet how quick reason jumps in to ruin it...  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:15:36 GMT -5
It's THE practice of the Sufi's ;-) Okay I revise my answer again. That's my practice. Fall in love and fall in love good. Let it break your heart into pieces, and fall in love all over again. The Sufi's call that "clearing", or "Breaking" the rust from your heart :-) whats left is an ecstatic aching of wonder, love, and openness. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:16:28 GMT -5
Your Aware of this?? haha, seems like an odd thing to "finger point" over Kinda like? HAHa, Your Breathing? Which is really more word lawyering lol Why are words so important? Wow such a simple action and yet how quick reason jumps in to ruin it... Can reason ruin anything important? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 16:20:37 GMT -5
Wow such a simple action and yet how quick reason jumps in to ruin it... Can reason ruin anything important? Contains reason... |
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Post by earnest on Jul 16, 2013 16:29:26 GMT -5
It seems there is a clear distinction between the two. 1) The former takes the view that practice is required and that there is a doer who can practice. 2) The latter holds that there is no such requirement and no doer. What is it about the character of a seeker that is attracted to one rather than the other? If there any reading who would describe themselves as seekers, I would be interested to hear your views. amit I wouldn't call myself a seeker anymore, but it's not job done either - so somewhere in no-mans land For me its not an either or, and both are equally true/false blah blah. I'm along the lines of Top and the Rose-ian approach. I practice (ATA and formal sitting) because that is what just unfolds at that point in time. ATA'ing seems the most natural and effortless way of existing, anything else feels like a chore with no end. I was very attracted to practice initially because it made sense at the time. I want to get from a here I didn't like to a there that I thought would be better. Buddhism "seemed" to have that pretty covered. A path from suffering to the end of suffering. That started to fall apart though when at some point I wondered if all the efforting to get somewhere other than here was perhaps what was causing so much discomfort. There is a bit of TMT about practice sometimes - ie, paying attention to driving, then analysing paying attention to driving, wondering if the "right type" of attention is being held - then that all collapses into nothing, then it returns etc. No big deal. |
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Post by amit on Jul 16, 2013 16:30:25 GMT -5
It seems there is a clear distinction between the two. 1) The former takes the view that practice is required and that there is a doer who can practice. 2) The latter holds that there is no such requirement and no doer. What is it about the character of a seeker that is attracted to one rather than the other? If there any reading who would describe themselves as seekers, I would be interested to hear your views. amit Hello Amit, Your "Method" of helping folks here seems to be an invitation to some psychoanalysis of the motivating factors of one's character, I sense that you don't ask folks: "What is it about your character that _________?" Out of your own curiosity, but rather as an invitation for folks to look at their own character. So my question is: What is it about your Character that motivates this kind of invitation to this kind of self inquiry? And what can you say about its usefulness or benefit in the grand scheme of things? Is this type of self inquiry that you try to draw out not a kind of "practice" that you are engendering? What can you say about this? Hi Steven, Firstly no-one needs help if All is already One. The interest is academic mainly but also to address the issue of hierarchy so that at least in one description the seeker is not somewhere below the "realized" on the enlightenment ladder. The seeker already has enough on his or her plate without that. Why is the character amit concerned about such things? I'd like to say that its out of compassion for others and there may be some of that involved but I'm also aware that my own well-being is connected to the well-being of all else so to alleviate stress wherever possible is in my own best self interest in case it comes round my way.  amit amit to do this |
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Post by vacant on Jul 16, 2013 16:32:35 GMT -5
It's THE practice of the Sufi's ;-) Okay I revise my answer again. That's my practice. Fall in love and fall in love good. Let it break your heart into pieces, and fall in love all over again. As good a practice as any, including lifetimes of zenmonking and the pursuit of wealth and glamor. But what can you call practice when you cannot decide to start it, stop it, or have a clue on who it would benefit? |
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Post by vacant on Jul 16, 2013 16:40:48 GMT -5
It's what happens, and mighty fine too!
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Post by amit on Jul 16, 2013 16:47:58 GMT -5
Hi Steven. Perhaps we can clarify this by the following question. Would you say that practice is in any way helpful in terms bringing about realization/enlightenment/liberation/awakening or what ever term you may prefer? amit Leave out the words "bringing about", and I'll say yes as a short answer ;-) As a longer answer, Enlightenment only exists in Mind, outside of Mind their is no enlightenment, let go of Mind and enlightenment neither exists, or is needed in any way. Or, from another perspective, Samadhi IS enlightenment, though in Samadhi enlightenment doesn't exist. I'll let the word lawyers decide if Samadhi is actually a practice, though I call it a practice in that there are "methods" for undoing "into" Samadhi. How do you define "Enlightenment" Amit? Hi Steven, Understood. Thanks. If we leave out "bringing about" the question looks like this:- "Would you say that practice is in any way helpful in terms (of) realization/enlightenment/liberation/awakening or what ever term you may prefer?" to which the answer is yes. "How do you define "Enlightenment?" For me its the end of the feeling of disconnection. Not the end of any other suffering but that. Not the end of the defensive character (Ego/personality/individual) or mind, both of which continue to perform very useful functions seen in the context of each persons life. The end (letting go) of the Ego or the mind is not required for connection. Nothing can achieve more connection than there already is if All is One. Connection is simply not obtainable because disconnection is impossible. amit |
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