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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 10, 2013 5:39:58 GMT -5
You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. My point is limited and precise. A sense of self/existence/knowing is available only when attention is active. That doesn't mean that when attentive we necessarily have a dominant sense of self/existence/knowing. However, absent attention there never is a sense of self/existence/knowing comparable to one in the attentive state. And this profound absence of all knowing and sense of self/existence is NOT something to be achieved by lots of practise and effort, but rather exactly the opposite, it is the natural state of all people. In this point of mine I'm not complaining about anything and I don't care what can be achieved with enough effort. I'm just pointing out how things are.
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Post by quinn on Jul 10, 2013 6:21:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll do my best. For me, ATA wasn't about focusing on myself, or on a sense of self, or really anything in particular (over anything else--referring to what's important to attend). To me, ATA was simply a matter of focusing on anything as hard as humanly possible until nothing else existed or mattered. That wasn't what I intended, but that's what happened. The fan behind me is gone. Unimportant. All there is right now is the sweetness of soda, the acidic bubbling of carbonation. Who is experiencing this doesn't matter. Where it's happening doesn't matter. What happens next doesn't matter. There is just the taste and feel of the soda. When I first came around this board and ZD suggested ATA, I did it all the time. ALL. THE. TIME. Any chance I got I was slapping myself to attention. A level of focus such that I can remain intent on anything I want at any time I want--to the exclusion of all else--for extended periods of time became possible. Now I don't do it. I'm fairly lost in everyday life anymore. Sometimes it happens by itself and I enjoy the calmness, but sooner or later that passes and I move on. You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. I see holes in this, but I'm not interested in writing any more of a book at the moment. If something seems off, let me know and I'll see if I can clarify. This is interesting. So far in this thread I've seen three interpretations of ATA. One seems to involve a 'traffic director', maybe with a big club or maybe a whistle, that's mind forcefully telling mind what to attend to, which of course would involve effort and be very unnatural. It seems to include the 'director' in the mix. Your's, Mamza, seems to be more about focus than attention. I can see how that would be restful, in the sense that it's a break from constant thinking - a vacation of sorts. But I think it would be impossible to maintain. The third is using ATA as a reminder to place attention on what's here and now. No director other than the 'here and now' focus moving into the forefront of attention. If you consider that our lives are made up of now moments, it becomes more of a return to naturalness than anything forced. There is an element of effort in the 'returning', but, as Max said, it can be gentle. And there needn't be any additional mind element monitoring the whole thing. I find ATA to be much more effortless (and require less energy) than mind activity.
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Post by topology on Jul 10, 2013 6:51:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll do my best. For me, ATA wasn't about focusing on myself, or on a sense of self, or really anything in particular (over anything else--referring to what's important to attend). To me, ATA was simply a matter of focusing on anything as hard as humanly possible until nothing else existed or mattered. That wasn't what I intended, but that's what happened. The fan behind me is gone. Unimportant. All there is right now is the sweetness of soda, the acidic bubbling of carbonation. Who is experiencing this doesn't matter. Where it's happening doesn't matter. What happens next doesn't matter. There is just the taste and feel of the soda. When I first came around this board and ZD suggested ATA, I did it all the time. ALL. THE. TIME. Any chance I got I was slapping myself to attention. A level of focus such that I can remain intent on anything I want at any time I want--to the exclusion of all else--for extended periods of time became possible. Now I don't do it. I'm fairly lost in everyday life anymore. Sometimes it happens by itself and I enjoy the calmness, but sooner or later that passes and I move on. You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. I see holes in this, but I'm not interested in writing any more of a book at the moment. If something seems off, let me know and I'll see if I can clarify. This is interesting. So far in this thread I've seen three interpretations of ATA. One seems to involve a 'traffic director', maybe with a big club or maybe a whistle, that's mind forcefully telling mind what to attend to, which of course would involve effort and be very unnatural. It seems to include the 'director' in the mix. Your's, Mamza, seems to be more about focus than attention. I can see how that would be restful, in the sense that it's a break from constant thinking - a vacation of sorts. But I think it would be impossible to maintain. The third is using ATA as a reminder to place attention on what's here and now. No director other than the 'here and now' focus moving into the forefront of attention. If you consider that our lives are made up of now moments, it becomes more of a return to naturalness than anything forced. There is an element of effort in the 'returning', but, as Max said, it can be gentle. And there needn't be any additional mind element monitoring the whole thing. I find ATA to be much more effortless (and require less energy) than mind activity.+1
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Post by topology on Jul 10, 2013 6:53:11 GMT -5
You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. My point is limited and precise. A sense of self/existence/knowing is available only when attention is active. That doesn't mean that when attentive we necessarily have a dominant sense of self/existence/knowing. However, absent attention there never is a sense of self/existence/knowing comparable to one in the attentive state. And this profound absence of all knowing and sense of self/existence is NOT something to be achieved by lots of practise and effort, but rather exactly the opposite, it is the natural state of all people. In this point of mine I'm not complaining about anything and I don't care what can be achieved with enough effort. I'm just pointing out how things are. When is attention not active?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 7:18:42 GMT -5
What you are calling effortless in that 'everyday forgetfulness' I might call momentum or habit. It's just following one branch to the next as a monkey mind. It isn't a state of non-attention either, it's just that the object of attention is different. There is a very noticable difference between prior to attention and the activation of attention. I'm discussing only this difference. It's effortless because you can't get there by effort, we fall into it when we relax. I don't care whether it's a bad habit or not, or whether it's desirable or not, or that it's monkey mind. I don't accept such judgements. It is a real state and nobody can discuss it away. It is part of how I am, it's where I come from and it's where I reside when I just let myself be without any agenda. When daydreaming, isn't attention just on imagined stuff? I think I'm confusing the difference between focus and attention again. I can focus on this blinking cursor and also attend to what is in the periphery. The point is that I'm having a hard time locating a moment in the day where this isn't attention on something. Maybe I'm understanding the 'everyday forgetfulness' in a different way. I'm contrasting that state with a state of mindfulness or ATA, where there is a knowing attention on physical sensations. Maybe instead of 'knowing' I could have used 'conscious intentional' or something. Is the shift you are talking about from being prior to attention and attention the same? well said.
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Post by laughter on Jul 10, 2013 7:46:27 GMT -5
You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. My point is limited and precise. A sense of self/existence/knowing is available only when attention is active. That doesn't mean that when attentive we necessarily have a dominant sense of self/existence/knowing. However, absent attention there never is a sense of self/existence/knowing comparable to one in the attentive state. And this profound absence of all knowing and sense of self/existence is NOT something to be achieved by lots of practise and effort, but rather exactly the opposite, it is the natural state of all people. In this point of mine I'm not complaining about anything and I don't care what can be achieved with enough effort. I'm just pointing out how things are. (** picks up fruity-yougurt-iced drink the wife set down **) (** sip sip **)
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Post by laughter on Jul 10, 2013 7:47:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll do my best. For me, ATA wasn't about focusing on myself, or on a sense of self, or really anything in particular (over anything else--referring to what's important to attend). To me, ATA was simply a matter of focusing on anything as hard as humanly possible until nothing else existed or mattered. That wasn't what I intended, but that's what happened. The fan behind me is gone. Unimportant. All there is right now is the sweetness of soda, the acidic bubbling of carbonation. Who is experiencing this doesn't matter. Where it's happening doesn't matter. What happens next doesn't matter. There is just the taste and feel of the soda. When I first came around this board and ZD suggested ATA, I did it all the time. ALL. THE. TIME. Any chance I got I was slapping myself to attention. A level of focus such that I can remain intent on anything I want at any time I want--to the exclusion of all else--for extended periods of time became possible. Now I don't do it. I'm fairly lost in everyday life anymore. Sometimes it happens by itself and I enjoy the calmness, but sooner or later that passes and I move on. You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. I see holes in this, but I'm not interested in writing any more of a book at the moment. If something seems off, let me know and I'll see if I can clarify. This is interesting. So far in this thread I've seen three interpretations of ATA. One seems to involve a 'traffic director', maybe with a big club or maybe a whistle, that's mind forcefully telling mind what to attend to, which of course would involve effort and be very unnatural. It seems to include the 'director' in the mix. Your's, Mamza, seems to be more about focus than attention. I can see how that would be restful, in the sense that it's a break from constant thinking - a vacation of sorts. But I think it would be impossible to maintain. The third is using ATA as a reminder to place attention on what's here and now. No director other than the 'here and now' focus moving into the forefront of attention. If you consider that our lives are made up of now moments, it becomes more of a return to naturalness than anything forced. There is an element of effort in the 'returning', but, as Max said, it can be gentle. And there needn't be any additional mind element monitoring the whole thing. I find ATA to be much more effortless (and require less energy) than mind activity. yup
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Post by laughter on Jul 10, 2013 8:01:05 GMT -5
Well darn, this got long. I wasn't even up to page two yesterday and now I had to read up to 9! So to catch up, I'll reply to a few things: The second half of this is interesting to me. Mentally that kind of popped for me. +1 int. In response to the dispute between Q and others about Q's terminology: Q speaks strangely, from my perspective. And by that I simply mean different from how I normally interpret speech. At first he seemed backwards, and as far as my language receptors are concerned, he is. Buuuut, the more you mentioned the effortless state of not attending, the more you made sense to me. I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll do my best. For me, ATA wasn't about focusing on myself, or on a sense of self, or really anything in particular (over anything else--referring to what's important to attend). To me, ATA was simply a matter of focusing on anything as hard as humanly possible until nothing else existed or mattered. That wasn't what I intended, but that's what happened. The fan behind me is gone. Unimportant. All there is right now is the sweetness of soda, the acidic bubbling of carbonation. Who is experiencing this doesn't matter. Where it's happening doesn't matter. What happens next doesn't matter. There is just the taste and feel of the soda. When I first came around this board and ZD suggested ATA, I did it all the time. ALL. THE. TIME. Any chance I got I was slapping myself to attention. A level of focus such that I can remain intent on anything I want at any time I want--to the exclusion of all else--for extended periods of time became possible. Now I don't do it. I'm fairly lost in everyday life anymore. Sometimes it happens by itself and I enjoy the calmness, but sooner or later that passes and I move on. You mentioned that a sense of self can be felt only when we are attentive. I disagree. The sense of self is felt when you TRY to be attentive, not when you ARE attentive. I know this sounds silly, but effort requires a doer, and so forcing attention (i.e. - trying) generates that sensation. If, however, you were to practice that and ignore that feeling until the attention became easier to come by and happened on its own, a shift in attention would be noticed, and the subject would be subsequently dropped. I see holes in this, but I'm not interested in writing any more of a book at the moment. If something seems off, let me know and I'll see if I can clarify. In my experience, moment-to-moment practice can lead to a "new normal" where the practice just sort of naturally falls off. This isn't to say it doesn't arise again. When it does, the ground is different. Thanks for sharing that mamza. ----- Interesting to note that writing about practice -- and I'm unclear if ZD considers ATA a "practice" ... for the sake of the rest of this post, I will -- can be generally classified as: 1) Conceptual analysis of the practice. What I'm writing right now contains at least an element of that if not is that primarily. 2) The practice prescription. 3) Testimony of the practice. Of the perceived effect, of the practice itself. 4) Practice advice, coaching and encouragement. Quinn's post seems a great example of that. My interpretation and implementation of ATA involves turning attention away from 1) when it arises.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 8:19:01 GMT -5
....like creeping through a herd of sleeping elephants without waking them up. You know, I wonder why they even use this adjective anymore. It's psychology 101 that it has the opposite effect. When we were kids and when I still was stronger I used to tease my younger brother by telling him for no reason to relax and not get agitated or angry, and this was precisely what made him furious. Yea, 'Just act natural.' Pretty funny. The 'gently' instruction was something I glossed over at first. It took a long time before I was aware of how harsh the thoughts were when noticing my attention had been locked on future or past or whatever thoughts. So then, in addition to noticing not being present, I started to notice the reaction. Actually, I don't think the gentle return requires effort. It just requires not being invested in the reaction. I've been playing around with 'effortless meditation' for the past few months. It's in the same ballpark. The idea is to just make time to sit with no goal or intention whatsoever (I know, contradiction). It highlights the reaction dynamic even more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 8:26:27 GMT -5
You know, I wonder why they even use this adjective anymore. It's psychology 101 that it has the opposite effect. When we were kids and when I still was stronger I used to tease my younger brother by telling him for no reason to relax and not get agitated or angry, and this was precisely what made him furious. Yea, 'Just act natural.' Pretty funny. The 'gently' instruction was something I glossed over at first. It took a long time before I was aware of how harsh the thoughts were when noticing my attention had been locked on future or past or whatever thoughts. So then, in addition to noticing not being present, I started to notice the reaction. Actually, I don't think the gentle return requires effort. It just requires not being invested in the reaction. I've been playing around with 'effortless meditation' for the past few months. It's in the same ballpark. The idea is to just make time to sit with no goal or intention whatsoever (I know, contradiction). It highlights the reaction dynamic even more. I don't see it as contradiction, max. You've been pointing at non-doing a lot lately. Interesting mantra offered by niz- so hum. So on the in-breath, hum on the exhale. Gently. So- I Hum- am When listening to the in breath, it has a sound similar to- so The out breath sounds like- hum
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 10, 2013 8:28:29 GMT -5
When daydreaming, isn't attention just on imagined stuff? No, that would be an inflationary use of attention and the word would lose its meaning. Then you can just equate attention with consciousness or something like that, and the whole thing becomes merely theoretical. Attention is absent precisely before it gets active. Sounds fine to me.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 10, 2013 8:29:22 GMT -5
My point is limited and precise. A sense of self/existence/knowing is available only when attention is active. That doesn't mean that when attentive we necessarily have a dominant sense of self/existence/knowing. However, absent attention there never is a sense of self/existence/knowing comparable to one in the attentive state. And this profound absence of all knowing and sense of self/existence is NOT something to be achieved by lots of practise and effort, but rather exactly the opposite, it is the natural state of all people. In this point of mine I'm not complaining about anything and I don't care what can be achieved with enough effort. I'm just pointing out how things are. (** picks up fruity-yougurt-iced drink the wife set down **) (** sip sip **) Yawn. Talk like normal people please thank you.
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Post by quinn on Jul 10, 2013 8:37:08 GMT -5
Actually, I don't think the gentle return requires effort. It just requires not being invested in the reaction. Yes yes.
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Post by topology on Jul 10, 2013 10:25:10 GMT -5
Peter, I will scale back my posting of images in responses on this thread to 1 a day from here on out, today's quota is more than filled. See you tomorrow Troll-Sayer. Troll, nobody cares about your mindless drivel. We intelligent people will simply ignore your nonsense and point out to you again and again that you are a troll, a creature so miserable that it requires other people's attention to get through the day. If you wish to remain on this forum then you have to change your ways and start contributing, otherwise please leave this forum. Thank you. Good Morning, Troll-Sayer. It's good to hear from you again. As far as I know, you have no authority or control over this forum, so the threat of banishment is impotent. I see you are still struggling with the hook you bit. I didn't even have to bait the hook, you hooked yourself. And you're writhing on that hook, spitting venom, but there is no one here to spit at because you are really just wrestling with yourself. Let me remind you about how you hooked yourself. You putting words into Mamza's mouth? My policy is that I don't feed trolls. I understand that this is the "unmoderated discussion" section and that you think you can write whatever you want here, but intelligent people like myself will simply ignore you even until you die from lack of attention. Please contribute to the discussion or find a new forum where you can post your mindless drivel. Thank you. Here's the trap you're stuck in. You can't actually ignore me. To ignore me would be to not respond, to not spit venom in my direction, to not even acknowledge my existence. Now you set up a bit of inference here. Intelligent people will actually ignore. Either that bit of inference is wrong, and you made a mistake in uttering it, or the contrapositive applies and you are not actually an intelligent person. So to preserve your self-perception of being intelligent, you would either need to stop replying and start ignoring me (but that dings your pride as you can't spit venom the way you like to) or retract the statement above (doh, but intelligent people don't have to retract statements do they??), or just admit you're not as intelligent as you think you are... (I don't see that happening). You hooked yourself. I don't have to do squat but remind you of it. Can you act intelligently now and start ignoring me? Or maybe the way out is to admit I'm not a Troll and thus not worth ignoring, and that is why you keep replying? In any regard, you drive yourself further and further into self-contradiction writhing on that hook each time you reply to me with venom and in the same breath tell me I am to be ignored. Next Image In the Sequence: Have you ever allowed yourself to emotionally feel how a mother feels about their newborn child? The raw awe and wonder of having given birth to an amazing life form. The openness to its being. The feeling of its heartbeat on your breastbone as you hold it close. The life it breaths into you and the feeling of sacredness of the life in your hands?
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Post by laughter on Jul 10, 2013 10:28:52 GMT -5
(** picks up fruity-yougurt-iced drink the wife set down **) (** sip sip **) Yawn. Talk like normal people please thank you. to be clear, my like of CPQ's joke exhibits a general preference for humor ... my sips were not done in parody they were sincere! I say, leave the consensus trance for the entranced.
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