|
Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jun 24, 2013 6:07:49 GMT -5
Permanent fulfillment is not possible because of it's relative nature, and because it is movement that we experience and not states. Experience is movement, and so a final state of fulfillment is not an experience, and experience cannot be fulfillment, as the movement is propelled by the hope of fulfillment. In my view desire is never fulfilled because of the metonymical nature of the concrete object of desire, i.e. for example we claim to desire fame and fortune, but what is driving desire is the gap between signifier and signified. Or, to turn it around, let's say we desire precisely fame and fortune and then we get it, and then we don't desire it anymore, this particular equation (desire-->fame&fortune) is then permanently fulfilled, because we actually do cease desiring fame and fortune (and this despite experience being relative!). What doesn't cease is desire itself, it just finds a new object, so this means that our desire for fame and fortune was motivated by a lack different from the lack of fame and fortune, and I suggest that the true lack is the structural gap between signifier/signified. I would say that experience is about concrete things, but the desire-equation that I showed functions in the purely logical realm of the unconsious that is prior to conrete experience. I would say that there isn't even a temporary fulfillment. Is it not so that our fantasy/expectation about the object we desire is always greater than the real thing? And that even within participation in the object of desire we require this fantasy to remain intact so that we don't have to confront the difference between our expectation and the real thing? In this sense I do agree that fulfillment can only mean the absence of desire, and this precisely without its fulfillment.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 9:29:57 GMT -5
Permanent fulfillment is not possible because of it's relative nature, and because it is movement that we experience and not states. Experience is movement, and so a final state of fulfillment is not an experience, and experience cannot be fulfillment, as the movement is propelled by the hope of fulfillment. In my view desire is never fulfilled because of the metonymical nature of the concrete object of desire, i.e. for example we claim to desire fame and fortune, but what is driving desire is the gap between signifier and signified. Or, to turn it around, let's say we desire precisely fame and fortune and then we get it, and then we don't desire it anymore, this particular equation (desire-->fame&fortune) is then permanently fulfilled, because we actually do cease desiring fame and fortune (and this despite experience being relative!). What doesn't cease is desire itself, it just finds a new object, so this means that our desire for fame and fortune was motivated by a lack different from the lack of fame and fortune, and I suggest that the true lack is the structural gap between signifier/signified. I would say that experience is about concrete things, but the desire-equation that I showed functions in the purely logical realm of the unconsious that is prior to conrete experience. I would say that there isn't even a temporary fulfillment. Is it not so that our fantasy/expectation about the object we desire is always greater than the real thing? And that even within participation in the object of desire we require this fantasy to remain intact so that we don't have to confront the difference between our expectation and the real thing? In this sense I do agree that fulfillment can only mean the absence of desire, and this precisely without its fulfillment. I'm still not getting the signifier/signified distinction. "true lack is the structural gap between signifier/signified." Is it the same as referent/what-is-referred-to? Or is this just another way of pointing to subject/object? The structural gap is the apparent division and phenomena of a subject and object?
|
|
|
Post by Ishtahota on Jun 24, 2013 10:35:14 GMT -5
Maxdprophet Some people say that a brain is a terrible thing to waste. But when it comes to spirit stuff, a brain is just plain terrible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 10:42:46 GMT -5
Maxdprophet Some people say that a brain is a terrible thing to waste. But when it comes to spirit stuff, a brain is just plain terrible.
|
|
|
Post by Ishtahota on Jun 24, 2013 10:50:47 GMT -5
Laughter
All of us have the laws and the rules for this life written in our hearts and in our DNA. When we break these laws and rules it causes inner conflict, and this conflict splits in half consciously. This when we step out of non-duality and into duality consciousness. We still send out information to the universe, but our ability to receive is almost always turned off. The clearing work has to do with ending all inner conflict. This can take a lot of work, mostly because there is no one that we lie to more then we lie to ourselves. Our hat reds, resentments, and our fears are the largest part of all of this work. And some of our inner conflict comes from events in our childhood that we do not even remember. Other part come from patterns past down to us by our ancestors.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jun 24, 2013 12:13:31 GMT -5
Permanent fulfillment is not possible because of it's relative nature, and because it is movement that we experience and not states. Experience is movement, and so a final state of fulfillment is not an experience, and experience cannot be fulfillment, as the movement is propelled by the hope of fulfillment. In my view desire is never fulfilled because of the metonymical nature of the concrete object of desire, i.e. for example we claim to desire fame and fortune, but what is driving desire is the gap between signifier and signified. Or, to turn it around, let's say we desire precisely fame and fortune and then we get it, and then we don't desire it anymore, this particular equation (desire-->fame&fortune) is then permanently fulfilled, because we actually do cease desiring fame and fortune (and this despite experience being relative!). What doesn't cease is desire itself, it just finds a new object, so this means that our desire for fame and fortune was motivated by a lack different from the lack of fame and fortune, and I suggest that the true lack is the structural gap between signifier/signified. I would say that experience is about concrete things, but the desire-equation that I showed functions in the purely logical realm of the unconsious that is prior to conrete experience. I would say that there isn't even a temporary fulfillment. Is it not so that our fantasy/expectation about the object we desire is always greater than the real thing? And that even within participation in the object of desire we require this fantasy to remain intact so that we don't have to confront the difference between our expectation and the real thing? In this sense I do agree that fulfillment can only mean the absence of desire, and this precisely without its fulfillment. Perhaps the actual experience of getting what we want fails to live up to the fantasy in that the expectation is that the object provides the fulfillment while the actual experience is that the absence of desire is providing the sense. The quality of the experience is necessarily different than expected, though not necessarily less satisfying. The longer the attention is focused on the object, the less satisfying it becomes because even the sense of satisfaction is not originating from the possession of the object. There's an interesting 'point of departure' from the peace of not wanting, as attention is turned toward the next movement, toward the fulfillment of the next desire, and this desire marks the end of the peace of not wanting, and the cycle begins again. Attention is turned toward the next movement because without it seems like there is no experience; no movement. If there is no desire, one simply does not form the volition to move in body or mind, but this is based on the misconception that volition is required for movement to happen. IOW, there is the idea that I must form a desire and set a goal and fulfill the dictates of my own meaning and purpose, etc, or nothing will happen. Actually, life can unfold quite spontaneously without the goal driven volition of the individual, which is not to say that goals and desires do not arise, but that they do not include the expectation of fulfillment and the delay of gratification. Instead, the focus is on the experience itself (journey and not destination) as it unfolds moment to moment, and in a way that is difficult to convey, one remains in this state of 'not wanting' throughout that experience. In spearachual parlance, this is referred to as non-attachment, and the focus on the unfolding experience is called being present, and the absence of wanting is called the Peace that passes all understanding, and it does so precisely because there are no conditions that must be fulfilled in 'not wanting'.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jun 24, 2013 12:26:50 GMT -5
Maxdprophet Some people say that a brain is a terrible thing to waste. But when it comes to spirit stuff, a brain is just plain terrible. Hehe. Yes, there's a contraction of attention that really should be avoided at all cost. It's not about shutting down the mind, but rather not falling into it and just letting it do what it is designed to do. One must keep the field of attention expanded, and look and see from that expanded state. However mind translates what is seen cannot affect the seeing as long as one doesn't fall into the river.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2013 4:10:14 GMT -5
Laughter All of us have the laws and the rules for this life written in our hearts and in our DNA. When we break these laws and rules it causes inner conflict, and this conflict splits in half consciously. This when we step out of non-duality and into duality consciousness. We still send out information to the universe, but our ability to receive is almost always turned off. The clearing work has to do with ending all inner conflict. This can take a lot of work, mostly because there is no one that we lie to more then we lie to ourselves. Our hat reds, resentments, and our fears are the largest part of all of this work. And some of our inner conflict comes from events in our childhood that we do not even remember. Other part come from patterns past down to us by our ancestors. Thank you for the reply Ishy, I understand what you're relating. My guess is that a major basis for common ground you'll find here is: Are you interested in my inklings about what you might find disagreement on?
|
|
|
Post by Ishtahota on Jun 25, 2013 6:49:57 GMT -5
Sure,but I will not express disagreement without explaining why. And even that does not mean that I Am right. After all I am from the stupid white man nations.
|
|
|
Post by onehandclapping on Jun 25, 2013 18:47:37 GMT -5
Laughter All of us have the laws and the rules for this life written in our hearts and in our DNA. When we break these laws and rules it causes inner conflict, and this conflict splits in half consciously. This when we step out of non-duality and into duality consciousness. We still send out information to the universe, but our ability to receive is almost always turned off. The clearing work has to do with ending all inner conflict. This can take a lot of work, mostly because there is no one that we lie to more then we lie to ourselves. Our hat reds, resentments, and our fears are the largest part of all of this work. And some of our inner conflict comes from events in our childhood that we do not even remember. Other part come from patterns past down to us by our ancestors. Could you give a bio on yourself? I would love to hear how you got into seeking.
|
|
|
Post by Ishtahota on Jun 25, 2013 19:04:40 GMT -5
My father was a wide open psychic one of the real ones. One of his teachers was Jim V. Goure who worked in the government. He helped out the cops from time to time, but he had to do it threw an old lady because in his day you could end up in jail if you knew to much. My parents were part of the original new age movement before it filled up with all of the bliss bunnies. Today I have a place where my wife and I do sweat lodges and if some people want to walk the way we do we can put them out on the hill for vision quest. We walk the way of the Lakota and we have gone and earned the permission to do what we do. I have been involved in spirit stuff in one way or another all of my life.
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Jun 25, 2013 19:08:40 GMT -5
My father was a wide open psychic one of the real ones. One of his teachers was Jim V. Goure who worked in the government. He helped out the cops from time to time, but he had to do it threw an old lady because in his day you could end up in jail if you knew to much. My parents were part of the original new age movement before it filled up with all of the bliss bunnies. Today I have a place where my wife and I do sweat lodges and if some people want to walk the way we do we can put them out on the hill for vision quest. We walk the way of the Lakota and we have gone and earned the permission to do what we do. I have been involved in spirit stuff in one way or another all of my life. That's pretty fascinating. Do you have a sense what psychic ability, like your Dad's, is all about?
|
|
|
Post by onehandclapping on Jun 25, 2013 19:13:33 GMT -5
My father was a wide open psychic one of the real ones. One of his teachers was Jim V. Goure who worked in the government. He helped out the cops from time to time, but he had to do it threw an old lady because in his day you could end up in jail if you knew to much. My parents were part of the original new age movement before it filled up with all of the bliss bunnies. Today I have a place where my wife and I do sweat lodges and if some people want to walk the way we do we can put them out on the hill for vision quest. We walk the way of the Lakota and we have gone and earned the permission to do what we do. I have been involved in spirit stuff in one way or another all of my life. Interesting. My Dad does sweat lodges from time to time. So did you come to this "big empty" thing via meditation in a lodge? What events lead up to this "realization" for you?
|
|
|
Post by Ishtahota on Jun 25, 2013 19:30:57 GMT -5
Quinn We all have these abilities. The problem is that people are not willing to do the personal work to open up their abilities. My dad could shake your hand and tell you your whole life story, past, present, and the future. There are times when I am good, but as of yet I am not as good as pop.
Onehandclapping Working with people over the years and seeing what life was doing to them, helped me come up with the Big Empty. As we learn and we grow and we evolve, we to define some new concepts and ideas.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jun 25, 2013 21:02:51 GMT -5
Quinn We all have these abilities. The problem is that people are not willing to do the personal work to open up their abilities. My dad could shake your hand and tell you your whole life story, past, present, and the future. There are times when I am good, but as of yet I am not as good as pop. Onehandclapping Working with people over the years and seeing what life was doing to them, helped me come up with the Big Empty. As we learn and we grow and we evolve, we to define some new concepts and ideas. Right. I don't agree with the future thingy though. You might tell the future as it looks right now. But that doesn't necessarily have to be your future later.
|
|