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Post by Ishtahota on Jun 20, 2013 22:56:32 GMT -5
Most people spend a lot of their lives building up their ego's until they get into their 40's, 50's, and 60's. The world puts us to sleep as we are growing up. We do not notice that something is missing when we are younger. We never notice this hollow spot deep down inside, during our 20's and 30's, because our egos distract us with all sorts of things for many years. The search for a soul mate, money, power, control over others, sex, drugs, and alcohol are all things that can make us feel good and whole for a short while. The day always comes when none of these things can satisfy us for very long. One day we all wake up and realize that we have been consumed by THE BIG EMPTY.
My elders told me that what I was really hunting for in my life is called AUTHENTIC SELF. That person that I could have been if the world and it's duality consciousness had not put me to sleep. Nothing outside of me ever helped me fill THE BIG EMPTY. Making an inward journey of self discovery, and doing some personal clearing work, helped me to see what it was that I was really looking for in life. I WAS LOOKING FOR ME.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 22, 2013 12:24:50 GMT -5
This resonates in a big way with me. I read it when first posted, only slightly surprised there has been zero response. I suppose no response is because it's not in the language predominately used here, non-dualism, which is a sort of all or nothing language.
Primarily, The Big Empty means that anything you can put your eyes on (or any of the five senses) cannot be meaningful in an ultimate way, and is therefore, superfluous, anyway. Secondarily, The Big Empty is ATST meaningless, because All is One, anyway, and, yet, meaningful, IOW, The Big Empty = Why not enjoy life?, because All is One.
For me, this attitude is just an excuse to not-be serious, IOW, just non-duality jibber-jabber, IOW, non-duality-speak, conceptual non-dualism.
The Big Empty is sort of a threshold, a gap everyone comes to eventually, a place of possible stuck-ness. You have to see The Big Emptiness, to get to the next step, maybe even to see that there is a next step. There is always, further.
Welcome to my world, here, Ishtahota. (I'm going to have a book-recommendation, shortly, in spiritual teachers, which I think you will like).
sdp
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Post by enigma on Jun 23, 2013 10:18:07 GMT -5
What I take the Big Empty to mean is that nothing ultimately satisfies, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with nonduality or oneness. What's not so clear is what is meant by "authentic self". I'm guessing it means what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'awake within the dream' and what I call being conscious.
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Post by quinn on Jun 23, 2013 10:23:12 GMT -5
What I take the Big Empty to mean is that nothing ultimately satisfies, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with nonduality or oneness. What's not so clear is what is meant by "authentic self". I'm guessing it means what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'awake within the dream' and what I call being conscious. "Nothing ultimately satisfies", when noticed, can start the movement away from looking at the material world for that satisfaction. |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jun 23, 2013 10:47:40 GMT -5
What I take the Big Empty to mean is that nothing ultimately satisfies, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with nonduality or oneness. What's not so clear is what is meant by "authentic self". I'm guessing it means what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'awake within the dream' and what I call being conscious. "Nothing ultimately satisfies", when noticed, can start the movement away from looking at the material world for that satisfaction. The problem lies deeper, namely in mind. It's the problem of the impossibility of the fufillment of desire that we encounter with the split between signifier and signified when the fulfillment of desire is situated on the side of the signified. It is an impossible desire because we as cognitive entities are forever signifying entities and thus we are situated on the wrong side of the equation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 10:48:43 GMT -5
Perhaps the experience of being 'ultimately satisfied' in a mirror world is as simple as being appreciative of what we have been given, instead of an expectation about what hasn't arrived yet. As Thoreau said- Only that day dawns to which we are awake.
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Post by enigma on Jun 23, 2013 12:05:14 GMT -5
What I take the Big Empty to mean is that nothing ultimately satisfies, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with nonduality or oneness. What's not so clear is what is meant by "authentic self". I'm guessing it means what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'awake within the dream' and what I call being conscious. "Nothing ultimately satisfies", when noticed, can start the movement away from looking at the material world for that satisfaction. Yeah, and it generally happens in the spearachual arena too. There can be the discovery that none of the belief systems and tricks work. As Marie discovered last year "The human way doesn't work." That's when she tossed out all the New Age books and started to get serious. |
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Post by quinn on Jun 23, 2013 12:39:11 GMT -5
"Nothing ultimately satisfies", when noticed, can start the movement away from looking at the material world for that satisfaction. The problem lies deeper, namely in mind. It's the problem of the impossibility of the fufillment of desire that we encounter with the split between signifier and signified when the fulfillment of desire is situated on the side of the signified. It is an impossible desire because we as cognitive entities are forever signifying entities and thus we are situated on the wrong side of the equation. So have you come to the conclusion that we will never be situated on the right side? Or are you saying that the desire for fulfillment dissolves when it's seen to be impossible? Or neither.  |
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Post by Ishtahota on Jun 23, 2013 13:20:12 GMT -5
Stardusilgram
I see the BIG EMPTY coming to people for a few reasons. A person wakes up one day to realize that they have missed all of their chances to bring their vision and purpose to life in the world. Many of us have only a few chances in this life and when they are gone they are gone. Another reason is that the world and it's ways change us and put us to sleep as we grow up. We all long for something, sometimes that longing is strong and sometimes it is week. It can take a long time to realize what the longing is really about. And most never figure it out. Making that inward journey of self discovery to reawaken and become who we really are is the only thing tat can fill the BIG EMPTY. To reclaim AUTHENTIC SELF.
As far as the non-duality movement is concerned, it is becoming like the New Age movement, just another excuse to not do the work. Jesus was a non-duality teacher but, the world took and twisted his message to the point where it is almost unrecognizable. New Age was just the Christian BS put in a pretty shinny do nothing, work on nothing, change nothing, new package.
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Post by laughter on Jun 23, 2013 14:32:20 GMT -5
What I take the Big Empty to mean is that nothing ultimately satisfies, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with nonduality or oneness. What's not so clear is what is meant by "authentic self". I'm guessing it means what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'awake within the dream' and what I call being conscious. and perhaps, who it is that reclaims it? |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jun 23, 2013 14:33:26 GMT -5
The problem lies deeper, namely in mind. It's the problem of the impossibility of the fufillment of desire that we encounter with the split between signifier and signified when the fulfillment of desire is situated on the side of the signified. It is an impossible desire because we as cognitive entities are forever signifying entities and thus we are situated on the wrong side of the equation. So have you come to the conclusion that we will never be situated on the right side? Or are you saying that the desire for fulfillment dissolves when it's seen to be impossible? Or neither. Yes, I think that for us as cognitive entities desire remains forever unfulfilled. It's obvious for folks here that there is no ultimate satisfaction, the problem I tried to explain is why it is that nothing ultimately fulfills desire, and this I think is not so self-evident. I don't know how to "ultimately" solve the problem (i.e. collapsing it all) and I doubt that anyone else does either. I think the way we deal with this impossibility of the fulfillment of desire in society is by formulating prohibitions. For example in laws of society, laws of nature, laws of religion. These prohibitions effectively establish a context within which desire finally becomes a possibility, it's the only way we retain the ability to desire and even though our desire is never fulfilled we have someone to blame - actual entities, for example parents and politicians, but also abstract entities such as nature and god. So desire exists precisely as this gap between the signifier and signified. This gap also functions as the first prohibition, but it's abstract and it finds its face with the countless concrete prohibitions we invent. The gap stands in the way between signifier and signified, similar to how the prohibition stands between our desire and our object of desire. |
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Post by Ishtahota on Jun 23, 2013 18:45:40 GMT -5
Desire is of the Earth Mind, ego or what the Christians world would call the Devil. If you follow your desires and never look beyond what they really represent you always remain under the control of your own ego. My ego has me chasing after a soul mate when what I really want is to reawaken and become authentic self. My ego gives me drugs and alcohol when what I really want are the euphoric feelings that come from being a fully connected and awakened being. When the ego throughs up a desire it is only covering up and hiding what spirit is trying to give us, so freely. Desire is just a poor reflection of what can truly satisfy us. When we can see past the reflection, desire can no longer hold you.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 23, 2013 20:33:35 GMT -5
Stardusilgram I see the BIG EMPTY coming to people for a few reasons. A person wakes up one day to realize that they have missed all of their chances to bring their vision and purpose to life in the world. Many of us have only a few chances in this life and when they are gone they are gone. Another reason is that the world and it's ways change us and put us to sleep as we grow up. We all long for something, sometimes that longing is strong and sometimes it is week. It can take a long time to realize what the longing is really about. And most never figure it out. Making that inward journey of self discovery to reawaken and become who we really are is the only thing tat can fill the BIG EMPTY. To reclaim AUTHENTIC SELF. As far as the non-duality movement is concerned, it is becoming like the New Age movement, just another excuse to not do the work. Jesus was a non-duality teacher but, the world took and twisted his message to the point where it is almost unrecognizable. New Age was just the Christian BS put in a pretty shinny do nothing, work on nothing, change nothing, new package. I hear you dude. Nobody will work for what they think they already have. sdp |
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Post by enigma on Jun 23, 2013 22:42:30 GMT -5
So have you come to the conclusion that we will never be situated on the right side? Or are you saying that the desire for fulfillment dissolves when it's seen to be impossible? Or neither. Yes, I think that for us as cognitive entities desire remains forever unfulfilled. It's obvious for folks here that there is no ultimate satisfaction, the problem I tried to explain is why it is that nothing ultimately fulfills desire, and this I think is not so self-evident. I don't know how to "ultimately" solve the problem (i.e. collapsing it all) and I doubt that anyone else does either. I think the way we deal with this impossibility of the fulfillment of desire in society is by formulating prohibitions. For example in laws of society, laws of nature, laws of religion. These prohibitions effectively establish a context within which desire finally becomes a possibility, it's the only way we retain the ability to desire and even though our desire is never fulfilled we have someone to blame - actual entities, for example parents and politicians, but also abstract entities such as nature and god. So desire exists precisely as this gap between the signifier and signified. This gap also functions as the first prohibition, but it's abstract and it finds its face with the countless concrete prohibitions we invent. The gap stands in the way between signifier and signified, similar to how the prohibition stands between our desire and our object of desire. Permanent fulfillment is not possible because of it's relative nature, and because it is movement that we experience and not states. Experience is movement, and so a final state of fulfillment is not an experience, and experience cannot be fulfillment, as the movement is propelled by the hope of fulfillment. For a time, it can seem like getting what we want produces a state of fulfillment, though it is actually a temporary experience as it is defined by the experience of unfulfillment, (both of which are movements of mind) and in the absence of that unfulfillment experience, fulfillment quickly begins to lose it's meaning. Also, it is not getting what we want that produces the sense of fulfillment, but rather the momentary ceasing of the wanting. This is a clue, not to permanent fulfillment, but to Peace. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2013 4:15:34 GMT -5
Most people spend a lot of their lives building up their ego's until they get into their 40's, 50's, and 60's. The world puts us to sleep as we are growing up. We do not notice that something is missing when we are younger. We never notice this hollow spot deep down inside, during our 20's and 30's, because our egos distract us with all sorts of things for many years. The search for a soul mate, money, power, control over others, sex, drugs, and alcohol are all things that can make us feel good and whole for a short while. The day always comes when none of these things can satisfy us for very long. One day we all wake up and realize that we have been consumed by THE BIG EMPTY. My elders told me that what I was really hunting for in my life is called AUTHENTIC SELF. That person that I could have been if the world and it's duality consciousness had not put me to sleep. Nothing outside of me ever helped me fill THE BIG EMPTY. Making an inward journey of self discovery, and doing some personal clearing work, helped me to see what it was that I was really looking for in life. I WAS LOOKING FOR ME. Ishy I'm curious about this clearing work that you mention and as this is a sincere expression of interest you have my word that despite my reputation I promise to treat whatever you feel comfortable sharing publicly with respect and leave it free of satire. "Most people" is a qualifier that offers an opening onto an interesting aspect of your exploration here. Not every ego finds enough temporary satisfaction to maintain the distraction until middle-age and as you allude to, any satisfaction, once found, is always short lived. What enigma says about the nature of that satisfaction is very insightful btw. Isn't it actually just the mere promise of that satisfaction the fuel that powers the engine of distraction? That promise is the expectation game and it results in the chimera of an oasis of bliss ever out in the distance. Ever out in the future. Never here. Never now. I understand what you say about laziness and irresponsibility. It seems that any excuse for not confronting ourselves can and will be used by us against ourselves. For the sake of discussion, I'd hold forth that "the nondualists" translate this into the notion of sincerity or willingness and I myself sometimes argue with some folks here who I definitely respect but for whom the word "practice" is a dirty word. While I maintain a practice I also see exactly what they're pointing to. You see, this expectation game, it applies to anything that isn't right here, right now, and the fact is that the dirtiest, drunkenest, greediest, most philandering/slu++y, most debased, meanest most selfish and toxic person among us isn't not, those qualities notwithstanding, an embodiment of pure sterling and beautiful perfection exactly as they stand. Any hunt has a beginning, a period of searching and an end. This hunt, regardless of the purity of intention, is subject to the expectation game just as any other story. In this sense, it's not immune, not somehow free of perversion by anticipation and the distraction of fantasy. While I'm not saying that this is necessary in each and every case, it is possible that a person might just fill up that big empty hole with the hunt for the authentic self and find themselves in just another hole that's even deeper and steeper than the one they crawled out of. I reconcile this with the notion that the trail of the hunt must be filled with a hopelessness that is actually anything but. There is no promise of any benefit, any goodies, any improvement any reward. There is no prey that might elude us, no kill to be made that will sustain us and yet what might appear as an effort from one perspective is imperative. Put another way, ask for nothing but give everything. The words of one of the elders of my culture come to mind to me now, because there's no difference between praying for a Mercedes Benz or praying for salvation. |
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