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Post by zendancer on Mar 24, 2013 13:09:48 GMT -5
One subject that I've alluded to in the past, but never thoroughly discussed, is what is required to stay free of the mind. Many people become free of the mind, but later fall back into delusion. I suspect that this happens because they do not fully appreciate the capacity and power of mind to subtly re-assert its dominance.
I'll mention two examples that come to mind:
1. Jane Doe. As a young woman, Jane was only interested in finding the truth. She became so intensely focused in her search that many people thought she was slightly mad. Eventually, she had a mind-blowing enlightenment experience that freed her completely from her previous ideas about the world. Afterwards, she lived life like a little child and was happy, carefree, and one-with Tao. She got married, had children, and lived an enlightened life for many years. Then, she went back to graduate school, became consumed in her studies, and began to feel that she had wasted the wonderful gift that she had been given as a young woman. She started searching again in an effort to regain what she thought that she had lost. By the time I encountered her Jane had discovered Zen, realized that she had had a kensho experience. She had begun to regularly meditate and assumed that a daily meditation practice was the missing ingredient in her previous understanding. In short, mind had once again become dominant, and during the rest of her life she never realized that her conclusion about meditation, while containing a grain of truth, was incorrect.
2. John Doe. This relatively well-known figure in non-duality circles, woke up in the midst of a nightmare situation. He discovered that he was free, and that he was not who had always thought he was. He subsequently wrote a highly-praised book and became a guru. People flocked to go on retreat with him and listen to his satsangs. He remained free of the mind for several years, but then mind subtly returned to the scene. He began to think of himself as a modern-day Buddha. He began to see people in terms of their "level" of attainment, and he referred to people as "a 550" or a "675." He began to believe that he could accurately rank anyone's attainment on a scale from 1 to 1000, living or dead, present or on the other side of the world.
In non-duality circles, this story has been repeated again and again. I'm not talking here about people who have a fifteen-minute enlightenment experience and think they're enlightened. I'm talking about people who become substantially free of the mind, and live for many years in an enlightened state before gradually falling back into delusion.
I suspect this happens because those folks don't recognize or appreciate the subtle power of mind to reassert itself given the right circumstances. What can prevent this sort of thing from happening? First, recognizing the importance of remaining psychologically present (not in the sense of "I must remain present" but in the sense of being present without reflection). Second, regularly shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is," to what's happening NOW, to what can be seen, heard, etc.
A Zen person who attains satori and becomes free of mind has already established a habit of daily meditation and samadhi. It has become a way of life. S/he has also become a person of action rather than reflection, so mind never has anywhere to gain a foothold. Such a person lives in a community where egocentrism in even the most subtle forms is powerfully eschewed, so even the slightest hint of self-aggrandizement would be immediately recognized and rejected as a kind of spiritual pitfall.
In Advaita circles, there is no similar allegiance to a meditative practice or habit of remaining psychologically present, so the potential of mind reasserting its dominance is much greater.
Let me emphasize that thinking, alone, is not a problem, and thinking need not be eschewed. I am simply saying that unless there is a habit of frequently and non-conceptually interacting with "what is" mind can reassert its past dominance and lead to a loss of clarity.
In the example of Jane Doe, she apparently never realized that she had never gained anything with enlightenment nor had she ever lost anything several years later. She seems to have missed the fundamental realization that no such person as "Jane Doe" had ever existed. The last time I talked with her she was still hoping that she could once again become unified with "what is" and free in the same way she had experienced for a period of several years. She did not seem to realize that a reflective mode of mind, coupled with a sense of "me," was "causing" her sense of separation.
The last time I talked with John Doe he offerred to help me "raise my level of awareness" to his own high level, a level that only Buddhas exhibit. I declined his offer.
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Post by laughter on Mar 24, 2013 13:30:49 GMT -5
Thank you ZD.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 14:10:24 GMT -5
I have no intention to be free from my mind. I have every intention of freeing my mind.
Having a mind is not the problem, the self created prison around it is.
The wounded, broken, dysfunctional state it was in was the problem, not my mind itself.
The programs i ran through it were the problems, not the machine itself.
It's my mind, i choose what to do with it, it does not choose what it will do with me.
To say mind has the ability to assert itself over the individual,
smells like low self awareness/self knowledge/self understanding to me.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 24, 2013 15:28:30 GMT -5
Sometimes a signpost pointing to a destination is mistaken for the destination itself. If there were actually someone who could be freed from mind, it would be a miracle to end all miracles. And if there were someone who could have an intention to free the mind, it would be a miracle of equal proportion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 15:37:09 GMT -5
Sometimes a signpost pointing to a destination is mistaken for the destination itself. If there were actually someone who could be freed from mind, it would me a miracle to end all miracles. And if there were someone who could have an intention to free the mind, it would be a miracle of equal proportion. 'Earth' ~ said a body. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 16:05:25 GMT -5
Sometimes a signpost pointing to a destination is mistaken for the destination itself.
May you unclutter/heal/transform/still your mind so that you can easily decipher the difference.
"As it is with the symbology, the possible exists within the impossible." - James Thomas Miller.
Regardless of your thoughts regarding miracles, i intended to free my mind and i have succeeded.
If you think it's not possible, then to you it isn't
What i classify as an impossibility is for an individual to declare they don't exist.
Because as soon as they speak, they have become an individual self again.
Yet this thread is entitled 'Remaining free of the mind.'
Perhaps it could have been titled, 'Remaining free of the mind even though it's impossible to achieve.'
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Post by enigma on Mar 24, 2013 16:30:43 GMT -5
A friend calls it 'falling off the enlightenment wagon', to describe her own experience. I'd say there are two approaches. The one you talk about is basically to recognize the power of mind/ego to subtly assert itself without it being noticed, and the prescription is to not provide the opportunity.
A common theme in your stories is a lack of understanding, about the power of mind, or what the enlightened 'state' really is, or what meditation and Satori are about, etc. This lack of understanding is the failure of mind to be fully 'informed' of the implications of realization(s). Nonduality certainly doesn't encourage understanding because the goal is non-abidance in mind, and really the realization is enough, but the danger is that mind can still be confused because in a way mind has simply been turned away from.
This is why I encourage understanding, not in the form of conceptual clarity, but in the form of realization thoroughly informing mind, and essentially informing mind of what is not so, thereby collapsing this ignorance that can easily build up it's own momentum.
What I think I often see here is folks who have a realization of some kind, but do not allow the mind to be fully informed and 'purified' of it's false notions. Mind then takes charge of the realization and naturally falsifies it. This is why I talk about the sovereignty of that seeing. Some have indicated that realization is not enough and doesn't change anything. I suggest that's because the realization has not been allowed to do it's job, which is to collapse ignorance into a little greasy spot. If the doubting mind is allowed to be informed by self evident truth, there is no 'energy' remaining in mind to launch a counter attack, like a mushroom growing in the dark.
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Post by enigma on Mar 24, 2013 16:46:19 GMT -5
Sometimes a signpost pointing to a destination is mistaken for the destination itself.
May you unclutter/heal/transform/still your mind so that you can easily decipher the difference.
"As it is with the symbology, the possible exists within the impossible." - James Thomas Miller.
Regardless of your thoughts regarding miracles, i intended to free my mind and i have succeeded.
If you think it's not possible, then to you it isn't
What i classify as an impossibility is for an individual to declare they don't exist.
Because as soon as they speak, they have become an individual self again.
Yet this thread is entitled 'Remaining free of the mind.'
Perhaps it could have been titled, 'Remaining free of the mind even though it's impossible to achieve.'
You and ZD are talking about different things, and so you are never going to agree. What you are talking about is what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'being awake within the dream', which essentially means being conscious, which essentially means not being driven by unconscious motivations. It's a very worthy goal and is 'doable' for anyone who is truly sincere and interested. ZD is talking about what Jed calls 'awakening FROM the dream' which is what others mean by enlightenment. It's what you buddy Buddha was.  The interest in that likely needs to be rather......intense. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 16:46:27 GMT -5
Now that i have 8 gigiddies to use again, i have returned to watching the vids from the LGF thread.
Came across this on page 21
For those who are interested: Select something as hard, discrete, and tangible as a rock. In fact, if you can, find a big hunk of rock somewhere close to home, and simply look at it. A big boulder would be ideal. Contemplate it. Don't imagine what it is, don't think about it, and don't comment upon it. Just look. Hold attention upon what is seen. If the question arises, "What am I looking at, really?" or "What is that before I imagined it was a rock?" that's okay. Bear the questions in mind and keep looking.
- to look at or view with continued attention; observe thoughtfully.
- to consider thoroughly; think deeply about.
- to think studiously; meditate; consider deliberately.
- to look at thoughtfully; observe pensively.
You encourage to contemplate, but don't think, yet contemplation is an act that involves thinking.
I have not seen anywhere in the dictionary definition that contemplation is solely observation("Just look").Yeah, i don't follow your religion/spiritual beliefs so i do not experience what you state i should when i observe while my mind is still.
I do not adhere to the religious/spiritual ideas pertaining to this reality being an illusion.
If you do, then of course you will thoughtfully come to the conclusions you have regarding your experiences.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 24, 2013 17:50:12 GMT -5
A friend calls it 'falling off the enlightenment wagon', to describe her own experience. I'd say there are two approaches. The one you talk about is basically to recognize the power of mind/ego to subtly assert itself without it being noticed, and the prescription is to not provide the opportunity. A common theme in your stories is a lack of understanding, about the power of mind, or what the enlightened 'state' really is, or what meditation and Satori are about, etc. This lack of understanding is the failure of mind to be fully 'informed' of the implications of realization(s). Nonduality certainly doesn't encourage understanding because the goal is non-abidance in mind, and really the realization is enough, but the danger is that mind can still be confused because in a way mind has simply been turned away from. This is why I encourage understanding, not in the form of conceptual clarity, but in the form of realization thoroughly informing mind, and essentially informing mind of what is not so, thereby collapsing this ignorance that can easily build up it's own momentum. What I think I often see here is folks who have a realization of some kind, but do not allow the mind to be fully informed and 'purified' of it's false notions. Mind then takes charge of the realization and naturally falsifies it. This is why I talk about the sovereignty of that seeing. Some have indicated that realization is not enough and doesn't change anything. I suggest that's because the realization has not been allowed to do it's job, which is to collapse ignorance into a little greasy spot. If the doubting mind is allowed to be informed by self evident truth, there is no 'energy' remaining in mind to launch a counter attack, like a mushroom growing in the dark. Agreed. Mind has to be informed by realizations concerning the limitations of its applicability and usefulness. Only then can mind "function freely and without hindrance," and without returning to a mode of dominance. For most people mind is master; for the sage mind is servant. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 24, 2013 17:51:23 GMT -5
To those that can't tell the difference betweeen a sign and the destination it is pointing to...
May you unclutter/heal/transform/still your mind so that you can easily decipher the difference.
"As it is with the symbology, the possible exists within the impossible." - James Thomas Miller.
Regardless of your thoughts regarding miracles, i intended to free my mind and i have succeeded.
If you think it's not possible, then to you it isn't
What i classify as an impossibility is for an individual to declare they don't exist.
Because as soon as they speak, they have become an individual self again.
Yet this thread is entitled 'Remaining free of the mind.'
Perhaps it could have been titled, 'Remaining free of the mind even though it's impossible to achieve.'
You and ZD are talking about different things, and so you are never going to agree. What you are talking about is what Jed Mckenna refers to as 'being awake within the dream', which essentially means being conscious, which essentially means not being driven by unconscious motivations. It's a very worthy goal and is 'doable' for anyone who is truly sincere and interested. ZD is talking about what Jed calls 'awakening FROM the dream' which is what others mean by enlightenment. It's what you buddy Buddha was. The interest in that likely needs to be rather......intense. Agreed. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2013 17:52:55 GMT -5
And while in the LGP thread, up to page 50 now, i was wondering where Tzu was lately,
so i sought him out and i come across this on my travels...There is a wall beyond which the mind cannot go. Beyond that wall lies the truth.
Yet it takes a mind via thinking to contemplate something that one judges as truth.
So it seems mind can go beyond this wall you speak of.
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Post by enigma on Mar 24, 2013 19:57:46 GMT -5
A friend calls it 'falling off the enlightenment wagon', to describe her own experience. I'd say there are two approaches. The one you talk about is basically to recognize the power of mind/ego to subtly assert itself without it being noticed, and the prescription is to not provide the opportunity. A common theme in your stories is a lack of understanding, about the power of mind, or what the enlightened 'state' really is, or what meditation and Satori are about, etc. This lack of understanding is the failure of mind to be fully 'informed' of the implications of realization(s). Nonduality certainly doesn't encourage understanding because the goal is non-abidance in mind, and really the realization is enough, but the danger is that mind can still be confused because in a way mind has simply been turned away from. This is why I encourage understanding, not in the form of conceptual clarity, but in the form of realization thoroughly informing mind, and essentially informing mind of what is not so, thereby collapsing this ignorance that can easily build up it's own momentum. What I think I often see here is folks who have a realization of some kind, but do not allow the mind to be fully informed and 'purified' of it's false notions. Mind then takes charge of the realization and naturally falsifies it. This is why I talk about the sovereignty of that seeing. Some have indicated that realization is not enough and doesn't change anything. I suggest that's because the realization has not been allowed to do it's job, which is to collapse ignorance into a little greasy spot. If the doubting mind is allowed to be informed by self evident truth, there is no 'energy' remaining in mind to launch a counter attack, like a mushroom growing in the dark. Agreed. Mind has to be informed by realizations concerning the limitations of its applicability and usefulness. Only then can mind "function freely and without hindrance," and without returning to a mode of dominance. For most people mind is master; for the sage mind is servant. Yup, yup. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2013 11:58:21 GMT -5
A friend calls it 'falling off the enlightenment wagon', to describe her own experience. I'd say there are two approaches. The one you talk about is basically to recognize the power of mind/ego to subtly assert itself without it being noticed, and the prescription is to not provide the opportunity. A common theme in your stories is a lack of understanding, about the power of mind, or what the enlightened 'state' really is, or what meditation and Satori are about, etc. This lack of understanding is the failure of mind to be fully 'informed' of the implications of realization(s). Nonduality certainly doesn't encourage understanding because the goal is non-abidance in mind, and really the realization is enough, but the danger is that mind can still be confused because in a way mind has simply been turned away from. This is why I encourage understanding, not in the form of conceptual clarity, but in the form of realization thoroughly informing mind, and essentially informing mind of what is not so, thereby collapsing this ignorance that can easily build up it's own momentum. What I think I often see here is folks who have a realization of some kind, but do not allow the mind to be fully informed and 'purified' of it's false notions. Mind then takes charge of the realization and naturally falsifies it. This is why I talk about the sovereignty of that seeing. Some have indicated that realization is not enough and doesn't change anything. I suggest that's because the realization has not been allowed to do it's job, which is to collapse ignorance into a little greasy spot. If the doubting mind is allowed to be informed by self evident truth, there is no 'energy' remaining in mind to launch a counter attack, like a mushroom growing in the dark. Agreed. Mind has to be informed by realizations concerning the limitations of its applicability and usefulness. Only then can mind "function freely and without hindrance," and without returning to a mode of dominance. For most people mind is master; for the sage mind is servant. Having been all three types of soil in which the seed dies off at one time or another, it is with zero frustration or lament, but with more than a tinge of irony that I note the elephant in the room: most of life up until the first time a finger is taken as a finger and the eyes look up is perceived by the mind as an exercise in mind keeping the body alive and on track. The truth or falsity or mu-ness of that statement notwithstanding, there's no denying the value of mind as a survival tool, one that is habit forming, especially in an urban environment. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2013 12:04:49 GMT -5
This is why I encourage understanding, not in the form of conceptual clarity, but in the form of realization thoroughly informing mind, and essentially informing mind of what is not so, thereby collapsing this ignorance that can easily build up it's own momentum. What I think I often see here is folks who have a realization of some kind, but do not allow the mind to be fully informed and 'purified' of it's false notions. Mind then takes charge of the realization and naturally falsifies it. This is why I talk about the sovereignty of that seeing. Some have indicated that realization is not enough and doesn't change anything. I suggest that's because the realization has not been allowed to do it's job, which is to collapse ignorance into a little greasy spot. If the doubting mind is allowed to be informed by self evident truth, there is no 'energy' remaining in mind to launch a counter attack, like a mushroom growing in the dark. I describe my experience in several facets here -- one is simply sorting out what is already known and figuring out what isn't known. This is the Rumsfeld truth table, with one entry he didn't include (the unknown knowns). Another is learning the vocabulary and idioms to communicate with you spearichual folk, especially for a heathen atheist such as meeself. And then, there is of course, learnin' new stuff ... that's how mind would express it anyway and that's not what's really happening but it's a close enough expression to get the drift across. |
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