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Post by enigma on Mar 20, 2013 0:05:54 GMT -5
I totally hear you loud and clear, James.
So, so much of it is sad and tears my heart clean out.
And yet, what is it that keeps us still going? What is that? Whatever gave us life - that 'energy' - that spark - is Intense - I struggle to make sense of things, as you well know. There's an unexplained happiness / cheerfulness even, within me - I see it in so many people. Most, I guess...
My friend and neighbor, Annie, seemingly has one foot in the grave and the other on the proverbial banana peel, and yet she pushes - and pushes darned hard - she's called me many times to say how much pain she's in and yet, whenever she can finagle - like today, she had me take her to the grocery store - she knows it's futile, but she keeps on keepin' on.
The one word that fits the 'question' of yours is Passion. Final answer. Yes and that's part of why it doesn't make sense. It doesn't 100% not make sense. So much has happened otherwise but equally so much appears to not make sense. The real point of my thread however is to share how we make sense of it and therefore come to realize that is all we are doing............replacing so that there is always something to grasp. Not saying that there anything wrong with that. Sounds like your intent is to answer every post with, 'And that's how you make sense of it so that there's something to grasp'. Okay, I'll bite. It's not clear to me whether you're trying to make it make logical sense, or to get it to stop hurting. I figure if it didn't hurt, nobody would care if it made sense or not. Lets try something controversial for a change. (hehe)The ground I stand on **pounding feet on ground** is sadness. It's what makes all my joy possible, so I don't want it to go away. I scribble "JOY" in the dirt, I jump for joy and land with a thud on the ground. I hug Marie in the morning while standing on the ground. Tears of joy and tears of sorrow both fall from my face and land on the ground. It's the one constant in my life, and it's absolutely guaranteed to bring me joy. It cannot be otherwise. The harder the ground, the softer the clouds.
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Post by silver on Mar 20, 2013 0:30:54 GMT -5
Yes and that's part of why it doesn't make sense. It doesn't 100% not make sense. So much has happened otherwise but equally so much appears to not make sense. The real point of my thread however is to share how we make sense of it and therefore come to realize that is all we are doing............replacing so that there is always something to grasp. Not saying that there anything wrong with that. Sounds like your intent is to answer every post with, 'And that's how you make sense of it so that there's something to grasp'. Okay, I'll bite. It's not clear to me whether you're trying to make it make logical sense, or to get it to stop hurting. I figure if it didn't hurt, nobody would care if it made sense or not. Lets try something controversial for a change. (hehe)The ground I stand on **pounding feet on ground** is sadness. It's what makes all my joy possible, so I don't want it to go away. I scribble "JOY" in the dirt, I jump for joy and land with a thud on the ground. I hug Marie in the morning while standing on the ground. Tears of joy and tears of sorrow both fall from my face and land on the ground. It's the one constant in my life, and it's absolutely guaranteed to bring me joy. It cannot be otherwise. The harder the ground, the softer the clouds. Well, no not eggsacktly, I guess it's my unique way of expressing myself. The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything but respond with spontanaeity (ooh that was a tough word to spell) so that what-ever comes out is more or less 'authentic' - if you read it that way, that is your unique way of reading and reading into other peeps' posts n stuff with your unique overlay. I think your response is greased up with the dreaded psychoanalysis - sometimes it's blatantly obvious like that - it's what you do for a living, right? So, with that 'hammer', you solve all translations, all problems, all everything because you are particularly good at it - or that is how you view yourself - you're comfortable with it. Hah! How's that for psychoanalysis! Two can play that game.
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Post by runstill on Mar 20, 2013 0:31:17 GMT -5
I think a major obstacle for clarity is our language. We are always referring to our selves as an 'I'. I did this, I feel this , I like this, I hate this, I, I, I,. This constant self reference as an 'I' conditions you to think you are a thing/object. If you are a thing/object where in the heck are you. Are you in the body ? If so what part,the hand,the finger,the arm, the head. The head if so what part the mouth, the tongue,the eyes, the brain. The brain if so what part, the front, the left side, the right side, the top, the bottom, the middle?
The fact is you cannot be located any where, this is not esoteric or metaphysical, its simply looking. The all knowing Google does not even know where you are. Do a google search [ what part of the brain are you ] it can not tell you.....
So its pretty clear your not an object/thing, then what are you? Well maybe the best way to think of your self is as a 'verb', instead of and 'I' you are Iing, you have always been Iing if you think about it. The since of self was never a thing/object and can not be located any where.
Well where does that leave the little girl that died, she's not an 'I' object/thing and can not be located any where.............
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Post by enigma on Mar 20, 2013 1:55:04 GMT -5
Sounds like your intent is to answer every post with, 'And that's how you make sense of it so that there's something to grasp'. Okay, I'll bite. It's not clear to me whether you're trying to make it make logical sense, or to get it to stop hurting. I figure if it didn't hurt, nobody would care if it made sense or not. Lets try something controversial for a change. (hehe)The ground I stand on **pounding feet on ground** is sadness. It's what makes all my joy possible, so I don't want it to go away. I scribble "JOY" in the dirt, I jump for joy and land with a thud on the ground. I hug Marie in the morning while standing on the ground. Tears of joy and tears of sorrow both fall from my face and land on the ground. It's the one constant in my life, and it's absolutely guaranteed to bring me joy. It cannot be otherwise. The harder the ground, the softer the clouds. Well, no not eggsacktly, I guess it's my unique way of expressing myself. The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything but respond with spontanaeity (ooh that was a tough word to spell) so that what-ever comes out is more or less 'authentic' - if you read it that way, that is your unique way of reading and reading into other peeps' posts n stuff with your unique overlay. I think your response is greased up with the dreaded psychoanalysis - sometimes it's blatantly obvious like that - it's what you do for a living, right? So, with that 'hammer', you solve all translations, all problems, all everything because you are particularly good at it - or that is how you view yourself - you're comfortable with it. Hah! How's that for psychoanalysis! Two can play that game. What are you doing? Did you think I was talking to you?
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Post by andrew on Mar 20, 2013 3:39:42 GMT -5
I have the priviledge of not being on the forum all that much which allows me to just live and see without being influenced by the views being presented minute by minute here. This allows me to to see how my own thoughts influence me. Nothing makes sense. The moment it does, something happens to contradict it. Back to nothing makes sense. The best I ever saw was that we create our realities, either unconsciously or consciously. I was good with that for a time but the problem is that it doesn't address the whole. The 6 year girl who died of lukemia today leaves me bewildered regardless of what tell myself about life, duality and whatever. I see spiritual folks dong this. Clinging to something to replace something else. Non duality to replace duality. Calling life an illusion. Calling oneself "it" or "I Am", seeing a person or seeing no person All something to grasp onto IMO I thought by seeing the emptiness of it all, meaning seeing that apart from life being subjective thru me and empty apart from being subjective to me, was an honest and conscious observation but now I see that as a replacement as well. Tzu pointed out that seeing emptiness really doesn't make sense because you are seeing so therefore life is never empty. I agree but once again nothing makes sense. Nothing ever fills, nothing ever brings lasting peace. Some see god in everything.............I say that is a replacement. Can we really just be.........no replacements..........no judgement...........no emotional attachment to what is happening? No answers, no replacements, no understanding? Would we want to? Could we wnat to? I say no but on the other hand, there is no going back. There is no trying to fool oneself by replacing that nothing makes sense with something that makes sense. Open for discussion. Is there anyone here who will admit that nothing makes sense and that is the culmination of what they have learned about making sense of life. Don't get me wrong, i'm ok with creating the life I have, the family, the job, the likes and dislikes, the sense of self............It just doesn't work for the whole of life to me and therefore leaves me wondering and even saddened. I am often saddened by what i see as life.......even in nature. If you decide to join in and life makes sense to you then please explain why you feel that way. First, just to say....'a discussion'??!! That's a hell of a big ask for us James hehe. How it works for me is simple. I attribute meaning to life/existence that feels right. I go with what sits with my heart and my Being, and what seems to be truthful. And I would also say that I do apply logic to this...I study whether there is 'logical sense' in what seems right to me, but in the end, no matter how good the logic is, it is never going to be proof. To give an example. It feels right to me that there is some kind of individual consciousness, soul or atman that is prior to the body. I can't prove it, I see it is a speculation, but none the less, it feels certain. Another one is....it feels right to me that that the essence of life is love. That even when people do horrible brutal things, that in a subtle way, it is still born out of love. Another one is.....there is purpose to this world. Souls come here for a reason, to experience something, to expand in some way. Another one that seems ever so true to me is that my inner purpose is to experience and express who I am as joy and love. All speculation, I can apply futile logic to it, but the point is that it feels right, and that's good enough. The law of attraction is another one. It can't be proved, but if the results speak for themselves, then that's good enough. I place faith in it, and I place faith in whatever I consider to get good results. I can't prove that love is the essence of life, but I like the result in gives me and I like the faith itself. I can't prove that there is purpose to this world, but I like the result it gives me. A little one minute video for you: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGvHkHUfEJU
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 3:48:52 GMT -5
Nothing ever fills, nothing ever brings lasting peace. It's not that Nothing that you're after, cut your head off, dear god. Cut your feckin' head off!
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Post by laughter on Mar 20, 2013 5:33:03 GMT -5
I have the priviledge of not being on the forum all that much which allows me to just live and see without being influenced by the views being presented minute by minute here. This allows me to to see how my own thoughts influence me. Nothing makes sense. The moment it does, something happens to contradict it. Back to nothing makes sense. The best I ever saw was that we create our realities, either unconsciously or consciously. I was good with that for a time but the problem is that it doesn't address the whole. The 6 year girl who died of lukemia today leaves me bewildered regardless of what tell myself about life, duality and whatever. I see spiritual folks dong this. Clinging to something to replace something else. Non duality to replace duality. Calling life an illusion. Calling oneself "it" or "I Am", seeing a person or seeing no person All something to grasp onto IMO I thought by seeing the emptiness of it all, meaning seeing that apart from life being subjective thru me and empty apart from being subjective to me, was an honest and conscious observation but now I see that as a replacement as well. Tzu pointed out that seeing emptiness really doesn't make sense because you are seeing so therefore life is never empty. I agree but once again nothing makes sense. Nothing ever fills, nothing ever brings lasting peace. Some see god in everything.............I say that is a replacement. Can we really just be.........no replacements..........no judgement...........no emotional attachment to what is happening? No answers, no replacements, no understanding? Would we want to? Could we wnat to? I say no but on the other hand, there is no going back. There is no trying to fool oneself by replacing that nothing makes sense with something that makes sense. Open for discussion. Is there anyone here who will admit that nothing makes sense and that is the culmination of what they have learned about making sense of life. Don't get me wrong, i'm ok with creating the life I have, the family, the job, the likes and dislikes, the sense of self............It just doesn't work for the whole of life to me and therefore leaves me wondering and even saddened. I am often saddened by what i see as life.......even in nature. If you decide to join in and life makes sense to you then please explain why you feel that way. Man, confusion was my lover for the longest time. If it jives with you, try what ZD suggests and look at the world until the person looking disappears. That's the only thing that's helped me out. You can analyze it to hell and back and nothing will ever make any more sense than it did before, but if you just give it all up and stare with every fiber of your being, it'll all clear up. two lovers kiss for the 3rd time and all words stop as their embrace drops everything tentative and in this there is no analysis as a brace of raindrops, even in their failure to first ask Isaac Newtons permission, aim straight for tops of the now joined heads to transmit the sentenceless message of the cool moisture of the sky in the absence of meaning pick your favorite word: the world, life, the universe, THIS ... whatever, it goes on as it does if we could bottle even a few seconds of the sound in totality of the surf against the entirety of the coastlines of the world and release it into our halls of learning it would easily drown out centuries if not millenia of the droning voices that would categorize, theorize, hypothesize and proselytize us into the sterility of the conceptual a stalk of corn and a strawberry plant, they spend the summer reaching down and gulping from the earth and reaching up and sipping from the sun and they don't ask why neither do they protest as the female of our pair of silent lovers, now pregnant, turns the dust and the rain and sun of the corn and the berry into the new awareness inside of her some evening a few weeks after those heedless droplets reminded her of the heavens above in the midst of her rapture stand before Love if you will and demand an explanation, insist on a semantic but expect the roar of the surf, the sound of the breeze in the leaves and the patter of the rain on your window sill in answer look into the eyes of the newborn nine months later and see if you can gain some inkling of that demand
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Post by quinn on Mar 20, 2013 5:54:50 GMT -5
There's an elderly lady I know. The last 16 years of her life could probably be summed up by saying, "She worked very hard, and failed, at trying to make sense out of life." That's, of course, not the whole picture, but it's a fair statement.
She had a lot of tough times - war, abuse, death of loved ones, estrangement - one of those people who misfortune seemed to hit extra hard. But the last and hardest blow was the loss of her son 16 years ago. Up until that point, he was the 'sense'. Life, as hard as it was, all led up to this perfect boy.
She must have said to me a thousand times, "I don't understand." It made no sense. The misery of that never left her. She became so wrapped up in that misery that it shut out everyone and everything else. All she wanted was 'out'. To be freed from this misery of a life that takes everything away for no reason.
She got her wish last week. I need to plan a funeral and deliver a eulogy and it's a tough one.
The 6 year old who died of leukemia..that's painful, WS. Very painful. But it's a different kind of pain that comes from trying to make sense of it. It's a pain that has us living in our heads, oblivious to what's going on around us.
Maybe that's why we do it - to avoid having to feel the original pain. Mental pain to avoid actual pain. Hell of a prescription.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 20, 2013 8:17:55 GMT -5
There are two kinds of meaning, direct and intellectual. There are also two kinds of "making sense of things", direct and intellectual. The world has a kind of inherent logic that can be experienced through the body, and if the mind remains quiescent everything that happens "makes sense." Problems occur when the mind is used to figure out what's happening and why? These problems occur because the mind is always at least one step removed from the action and never deals with the truth of "what is." Here are some simple koans that, if penetrated, will lead to realizations about the nature of the universe. These koans can only be resolved by getting out of one's head and into the body.
1. What is the meaning of life? 2. How does the death of a child make sense? 3. Does the universe make sense? 4. Who/what is it that makes sense of anything? 5. If we believe in God, we can pray to God, but if we no longer believe in an external deity, to whom can we pray?
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Post by Reefs on Mar 20, 2013 8:27:12 GMT -5
There are two kinds of meaning, direct and intellectual. There are also two kinds of "making sense of things", direct and intellectual. The world has a kind of inherent logic that can be experienced through the body, and if the mind remains quiescent everything that happens "makes sense." Problems occur when the mind is used to figure out what's happening and why? These problems occur because the mind is always at least one step removed from the action and never deals with the truth of "what is." Here are some simple koans that, if penetrated, will lead to realizations about the nature of the universe. These koans can only be resolved by getting out of one's head and into the body. 1. What is the meaning of life? 2. How does the death of a child make sense? 3. Does the universe make sense? 4. Who/what is it that makes sense of anything? 5. If we believe in God, we can pray to God, but if we no longer believe in an external deity, to whom can we pray? Those are Koans?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 20, 2013 8:54:34 GMT -5
There are two kinds of meaning, direct and intellectual. There are also two kinds of "making sense of things", direct and intellectual. The world has a kind of inherent logic that can be experienced through the body, and if the mind remains quiescent everything that happens "makes sense." Problems occur when the mind is used to figure out what's happening and why? These problems occur because the mind is always at least one step removed from the action and never deals with the truth of "what is." Here are some simple koans that, if penetrated, will lead to realizations about the nature of the universe. These koans can only be resolved by getting out of one's head and into the body. 1. What is the meaning of life? 2. How does the death of a child make sense? 3. Does the universe make sense? 4. Who/what is it that makes sense of anything? 5. If we believe in God, we can pray to God, but if we no longer believe in an external deity, to whom can we pray? Those are Koans? Two of the koans are "formal," meaning that they are used in the Zen tradition. One of the koans is an alteration of a formal koan. The other two are "everyday" koans that involve some of the issues raised in this thread. All koans, if penetrated, have very simple direct answers that arise and manifest through the body.
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 20, 2013 8:56:16 GMT -5
Lets try something controversial for a change. (hehe) The ground I stand on **pounding feet on ground** is sadness. It's what makes all my joy possible, so I don't want it to go away. I scribble "JOY" in the dirt, I jump for joy and land with a thud on the ground. I hug Marie in the morning while standing on the ground. Tears of joy and tears of sorrow both fall from my face and land on the ground. It's the one constant in my life, and it's absolutely guaranteed to bring me joy. It cannot be otherwise. The harder the ground, the softer the clouds. How can sadness, a thought/feeling form with no ultimate reality, make Joy, the Eternal Formless without opposite, possible?
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Post by silver on Mar 20, 2013 9:19:08 GMT -5
Well, no not eggsacktly, I guess it's my unique way of expressing myself. The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything but respond with spontanaeity (ooh that was a tough word to spell) so that what-ever comes out is more or less 'authentic' - if you read it that way, that is your unique way of reading and reading into other peeps' posts n stuff with your unique overlay. I think your response is greased up with the dreaded psychoanalysis - sometimes it's blatantly obvious like that - it's what you do for a living, right? So, with that 'hammer', you solve all translations, all problems, all everything because you are particularly good at it - or that is how you view yourself - you're comfortable with it. Hah! How's that for psychoanalysis! Two can play that game. What are you doing? Did you think I was talking to you? Uh, sorry!
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Post by silver on Mar 20, 2013 9:30:00 GMT -5
stand before Love if you will and demand an explanation, insist on a semantic but expect the roar of the surf, the sound of the breeze in the leaves and the patter of the rain on your window sill in answer
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Post by enigma on Mar 20, 2013 11:45:10 GMT -5
Lets try something controversial for a change. (hehe) The ground I stand on **pounding feet on ground** is sadness. It's what makes all my joy possible, so I don't want it to go away. I scribble "JOY" in the dirt, I jump for joy and land with a thud on the ground. I hug Marie in the morning while standing on the ground. Tears of joy and tears of sorrow both fall from my face and land on the ground. It's the one constant in my life, and it's absolutely guaranteed to bring me joy. It cannot be otherwise. The harder the ground, the softer the clouds. How can sadness, a thought/feeling form with no ultimate reality, make Joy, the Eternal Formless without opposite, possible? The joy to which I refereth is the dualistic counterpart to joy/sorrow. The struggle with dualistic feeling has to be reconciled. It only becomes a problem when one end of that stick is grasped and the other end is rejected. Until the grasping and rejecting occurs, there is no problem with feeling. Bad feelings are labels given to our struggle with feeling, not to feelings themselves. There's a lot of talk about embracing life on this forum, but mostly it means embracing the good stuff and somehow bypassing the bad stuff using some kind of strategies or conceptual understanding, but this is still rejection and rejection is suffering. It doesn't mean that one must simply accept suffering as part of life. Suffering doesn't happen in the world, it happens in the rejecting mind. Relief from suffering cannot be found in the mental world where suffering is created. This mental world insists that the answer to suffering must be a permanent version of the joy it has always sought and found to be temporary, and so it goes off looking for eternal joy in the formless. There is nothing in the formless but you. What is sought is Peace, and Peace is the absence of the struggle with feeling.
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