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Post by topology on Aug 2, 2012 13:08:35 GMT -5
Something I really think I'm being asked to look at at the moment is this need to hold up a mirror to people when I sense something as being "off" which I tell myself is part of our function here - seeing the Truth, cutting through the BS. Which is at odds with my drive to allow things to be, to respect people's free will and to let people learn their own lessons in their own time. As Question said to me the other day (I paraphrase) no one has asked me to be their teacher. Well I'm not sure where am I with this, but wherever it is, that's where I am this afternoon. So much for less talking and more doing. Back to the Meditation Stool Peter! It is actually a very very good practice to sit and try to discern what's "my stuff" (my Giraffes) that I'm projecting onto others and what's another person's Giraffe. Its no different than asking "How could I be wrong about how I am interpreting the situation I see?" E's tactic is to hit the Giraffes on their heads ZD's tactic is to not address the Giraffes directly so as the Giraffes feel like they are being hit on the head. The best teachers saddle up to the Giraffes through the energy of friendship and gently catching the Giraffe before it can resist and run away and defend itself. You'll get there eventually. But you have to become sneaky. You can't run up to the Giraffe yelling "I'm going to get you, you Giraffe!!!" And off it scampers to preserve itself. You have to walk up beside him without projecting "You're a Giraffe, you need to be caught" Then, once you're beside him, you put your arm around him, stare him in the face and Grin deeply and wink!
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2012 13:43:49 GMT -5
Hehe. It could be a light-hearted way to approach our own self delusions, though it's the nature of self delusions to never go peaceably. Mostly, I notice that teachers tend to avoid directly addressing the giraffe herds. Mooji will often say something like, 'Throw it away. It's just a thought'. Adya has a very kind, patient approach though he seems to prefer making very general statements about those dynamics in a kind of impersonal personal way, like he's always talking to everybody personally. From what I've seen of Byron Katie, she works directly with those dynamics but puts it all in a rather rigid structure so that everyone feels subjected to the same process and nobody feels singled out.
As for hitting giraffes over the head, from my perspective, I'm pointing out giraffes with the same non judgmental interest that I would use to point one out on safari. 'Hey look, a momma giraffe with lipstick followed by a few baby giraffes.' It's not personal cuz nobody actually owns those giraffes. Those in the safari who are terrified of giraffes may insist there is no giraffe, that it's morally reprehensible that I would say such a thing, that I'm just feeding my self image as a giraffe spotter, obviously projecting my own fear of giraffes, thinking too much about giraffes, etc, and pretty soon it looks like I'm slapping everybody in the back of the head to get them to look at the giraffes, but really I'm just saying, 'Hey look......a giraffe!'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 14:03:23 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2012 14:14:24 GMT -5
That's a cool pic!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 14:58:07 GMT -5
Hehe. It could be a light-hearted way to approach our own self delusions, though it's the nature of self delusions to never go peaceably. Mostly, I notice that teachers tend to avoid directly addressing the giraffe herds. Mooji will often say something like, 'Throw it away. It's just a thought'. Adya has a very kind, patient approach though he seems to prefer making very general statements about those dynamics in a kind of impersonal personal way, like he's always talking to everybody personally. From what I've seen of Byron Katie, she works directly with those dynamics but puts it all in a rather rigid structure so that everyone feels subjected to the same process and nobody feels singled out. As for hitting giraffes over the head, from my perspective, I'm pointing out giraffes with the same non judgmental interest that I would use to point one out on safari. 'Hey look, a momma giraffe with lipstick followed by a few baby giraffes.' It's not personal cuz nobody actually owns those giraffes. Those in the safari who are terrified of giraffes may insist there is no giraffe, that it's morally reprehensible that I would say such a thing, that I'm just feeding my self image as a giraffe spotter, obviously projecting my own fear of giraffes, thinking too much about giraffes, etc, and pretty soon it looks like I'm slapping everybody in the back of the head to get them to look at the giraffes, but really I'm just saying, 'Hey look......a giraffe!' Unlike the giraffes on the safari, the giraffes in the game reserve 'round here all have owners. ;D
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Post by living on Aug 2, 2012 15:01:05 GMT -5
Hehe. It could be a light-hearted way to approach our own self delusions, though it's the nature of self delusions to never go peaceably. Mostly, I notice that teachers tend to avoid directly addressing the giraffe herds. Mooji will often say something like, 'Throw it away. It's just a thought'. Adya has a very kind, patient approach though he seems to prefer making very general statements about those dynamics in a kind of impersonal personal way, like he's always talking to everybody personally. From what I've seen of Byron Katie, she works directly with those dynamics but puts it all in a rather rigid structure so that everyone feels subjected to the same process and nobody feels singled out. As for hitting giraffes over the head, from my perspective, I'm pointing out giraffes with the same non judgmental interest that I would use to point one out on safari. 'Hey look, a momma giraffe with lipstick followed by a few baby giraffes.' It's not personal cuz nobody actually owns those giraffes. Those in the safari who are terrified of giraffes may insist there is no giraffe, that it's morally reprehensible that I would say such a thing, that I'm just feeding my self image as a giraffe spotter, obviously projecting my own fear of giraffes, thinking too much about giraffes, etc, and pretty soon it looks like I'm slapping everybody in the back of the head to get them to look at the giraffes, but really I'm just saying, 'Hey look......a giraffe!' Unlike the giraffes on the safari, the giraffes in the game reserve 'round here all have owners. ;D ;D ;D I hope he has an actual ranch/spread for his herd to graze on.
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Post by topology on Aug 2, 2012 15:16:57 GMT -5
Hehe. It could be a light-hearted way to approach our own self delusions, though it's the nature of self delusions to never go peaceably. Mostly, I notice that teachers tend to avoid directly addressing the giraffe herds. Mooji will often say something like, 'Throw it away. It's just a thought'. Adya has a very kind, patient approach though he seems to prefer making very general statements about those dynamics in a kind of impersonal personal way, like he's always talking to everybody personally. From what I've seen of Byron Katie, she works directly with those dynamics but puts it all in a rather rigid structure so that everyone feels subjected to the same process and nobody feels singled out. As for hitting giraffes over the head, from my perspective, I'm pointing out giraffes with the same non judgmental interest that I would use to point one out on safari. 'Hey look, a momma giraffe with lipstick followed by a few baby giraffes.' It's not personal cuz nobody actually owns those giraffes. Those in the safari who are terrified of giraffes may insist there is no giraffe, that it's morally reprehensible that I would say such a thing, that I'm just feeding my self image as a giraffe spotter, obviously projecting my own fear of giraffes, thinking too much about giraffes, etc, and pretty soon it looks like I'm slapping everybody in the back of the head to get them to look at the giraffes, but really I'm just saying, 'Hey look......a giraffe!' You would like Richard Rose. The "inner circle" had to participate in confrontation groups where people were supposed to look at their own Giraffes. He took Gourdjief's idea of a Chief Feature, the primary Giraffe that didn't want to be seen or looked at. People can't see their own Egos because it's all they know. The confrontation groups were about getting perspective on yourself, wear down the Giraffe until it pops into view of the person whose wearing the Giraffe suit. I never met Rose before his mind succumbed to Alzheimer's. I met for a few years with Art Ticknor, probably one of his most dedicated students. But I blame a lot of my progress due to meeting Art, Shawn and other TAT members.
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Post by living on Aug 2, 2012 15:27:50 GMT -5
I never met Richard Rose, but I did read his online version of the book- After the Absolute, back in '02. Interesting read... kinda... www.richardrose.org/atatoc.htmJed McKenna is kind of an acquired taste...Bleccchhh
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Post by sharon on Aug 2, 2012 15:31:29 GMT -5
You would like Richard Rose. The "inner circle" had to participate in confrontation groups where people were supposed to look at their own Giraffes. He took Gourdjief's idea of a Chief Feature, the primary Giraffe that didn't want to be seen or looked at. People can't see their own Egos because it's all they know. The confrontation groups were about getting perspective on yourself, wear down the Giraffe until it pops into view of the person whose wearing the Giraffe suit. That sounds like a very honest environment to work in. Where everyone is truthful enough to openly help the revealing of what can only be seen in the other person. There is a stalemate with a family member at the moment. And it was interesting the other day when I told her son that only he could be a 'doughnut' because he had used the word. A few moments later his mother, the woman who I have the stalemate with ... distinctly slowed the delivery of her next sentence. It felt like what I'd said was also being thought about while she spoke. Obviously her son used the word 'doughnut' because she had previously called it him.
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Post by quinn on Aug 2, 2012 15:54:54 GMT -5
E's tactic is to hit the Giraffes on their heads ZD's tactic is to not address the Giraffes directly so as the Giraffes feel like they are being hit on the head. The best teachers saddle up to the Giraffes through the energy of friendship and gently catching the Giraffe before it can resist and run away and defend itself. I don't disagree with your general point here, top, that the sideways-maneuver can be more effective. But "the best teachers"...? Nah. There are all sorts of teachers and the best is the best one for that student in that moment. Sometimes kindness can break something open, but the brutal truth can too (after some reflection, of course ;D ). The other thing, though, is that here we are on this open forum - so the interplay is not just one-on-one. It's got an audience. I appreciate Peter's transparency and that he 'calls it like he sees it'. Same with Enigma. I get to sit here and see if any of those giraffes look familiar. Do I say "I'm all about peace" and then proceed to disturb it? Do I think I'm 'doing no harm' when my judgments and beliefs really are? So, IMHO ;D - , it's all about giraffe spotting (not catching), and the clearer they're pointed out, the better.
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2012 16:10:39 GMT -5
Hehe. It could be a light-hearted way to approach our own self delusions, though it's the nature of self delusions to never go peaceably. Mostly, I notice that teachers tend to avoid directly addressing the giraffe herds. Mooji will often say something like, 'Throw it away. It's just a thought'. Adya has a very kind, patient approach though he seems to prefer making very general statements about those dynamics in a kind of impersonal personal way, like he's always talking to everybody personally. From what I've seen of Byron Katie, she works directly with those dynamics but puts it all in a rather rigid structure so that everyone feels subjected to the same process and nobody feels singled out. As for hitting giraffes over the head, from my perspective, I'm pointing out giraffes with the same non judgmental interest that I would use to point one out on safari. 'Hey look, a momma giraffe with lipstick followed by a few baby giraffes.' It's not personal cuz nobody actually owns those giraffes. Those in the safari who are terrified of giraffes may insist there is no giraffe, that it's morally reprehensible that I would say such a thing, that I'm just feeding my self image as a giraffe spotter, obviously projecting my own fear of giraffes, thinking too much about giraffes, etc, and pretty soon it looks like I'm slapping everybody in the back of the head to get them to look at the giraffes, but really I'm just saying, 'Hey look......a giraffe!' Unlike the giraffes on the safari, the giraffes in the game reserve 'round here all have owners. ;D Yes, peeps are understandably attached to their pets. ;D It may seem like nonsense to many, but this is precisely the process of human suffering that we get to witness right here. The only difference is scale. The guy who walks into a theater and starts killing strangers has simply become overwhelmed at the task of care and feeding of his giraffes. It's confusion and delusion writ large and set on a stage for all of us to see, and hopefully reflect on.
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Post by question on Aug 2, 2012 16:45:30 GMT -5
The entire giraffe spotting exercise is already based on a giraffe. And then spotting giraffes in other people 24/7... wow, that's just absurd.
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2012 16:57:15 GMT -5
Hehe. It could be a light-hearted way to approach our own self delusions, though it's the nature of self delusions to never go peaceably. Mostly, I notice that teachers tend to avoid directly addressing the giraffe herds. Mooji will often say something like, 'Throw it away. It's just a thought'. Adya has a very kind, patient approach though he seems to prefer making very general statements about those dynamics in a kind of impersonal personal way, like he's always talking to everybody personally. From what I've seen of Byron Katie, she works directly with those dynamics but puts it all in a rather rigid structure so that everyone feels subjected to the same process and nobody feels singled out. As for hitting giraffes over the head, from my perspective, I'm pointing out giraffes with the same non judgmental interest that I would use to point one out on safari. 'Hey look, a momma giraffe with lipstick followed by a few baby giraffes.' It's not personal cuz nobody actually owns those giraffes. Those in the safari who are terrified of giraffes may insist there is no giraffe, that it's morally reprehensible that I would say such a thing, that I'm just feeding my self image as a giraffe spotter, obviously projecting my own fear of giraffes, thinking too much about giraffes, etc, and pretty soon it looks like I'm slapping everybody in the back of the head to get them to look at the giraffes, but really I'm just saying, 'Hey look......a giraffe!' You would like Richard Rose. The "inner circle" had to participate in confrontation groups where people were supposed to look at their own Giraffes. He took Gourdjief's idea of a Chief Feature, the primary Giraffe that didn't want to be seen or looked at. People can't see their own Egos because it's all they know. The confrontation groups were about getting perspective on yourself, wear down the Giraffe until it pops into view of the person whose wearing the Giraffe suit. I never met Rose before his mind succumbed to Alzheimer's. I met for a few years with Art Ticknor, probably one of his most dedicated students. But I blame a lot of my progress due to meeting Art, Shawn and other TAT members. That sounds cool. It seems Rose was well liked by his students, but I really don't know anything about him. I was involved in another group where we did giraffe spotting as a primary focus. A nice community with a lot of trust and gratitude came out of that. It makes a lot of difference when peeps understand the value of that work and are eager to do it consciously.
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2012 17:04:07 GMT -5
E's tactic is to hit the Giraffes on their heads ZD's tactic is to not address the Giraffes directly so as the Giraffes feel like they are being hit on the head. The best teachers saddle up to the Giraffes through the energy of friendship and gently catching the Giraffe before it can resist and run away and defend itself. I don't disagree with your general point here, top, that the sideways-maneuver can be more effective. But "the best teachers"...? Nah. There are all sorts of teachers and the best is the best one for that student in that moment. Sometimes kindness can break something open, but the brutal truth can too (after some reflection, of course ;D ). The other thing, though, is that here we are on this open forum - so the interplay is not just one-on-one. It's got an audience. I appreciate Peter's transparency and that he 'calls it like he sees it'. Same with Enigma. I get to sit here and see if any of those giraffes look familiar. Do I say "I'm all about peace" and then proceed to disturb it? Do I think I'm 'doing no harm' when my judgments and beliefs really are? So, IMHO ;D - , it's all about giraffe spotting (not catching), and the clearer they're pointed out, the better. That's perfect. I've mentioned before that I don't have these 'arguments' with peeps one on one, for all the reasons we've talked about here.
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Post by enigma on Aug 2, 2012 17:06:40 GMT -5
The entire giraffe spotting exercise is already based on a giraffe. And then spotting giraffes in other people 24/7... wow, that's just absurd. Yes, it's the clarification of delusion.
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