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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2011 6:11:51 GMT -5
I hope nobody is composing a beginning post for the new thread about Jesus proposed on the reincarnation thread, don't wish to usurp..........however...........
Jesus is still my main dude (right up there close, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Socrates). Wishing to understand Jesus was a big motivation for expanding my spiritual journey some 40+ years ago (I was raised Southern Baptist)......
So.........
Some questions about Jesus were raised on the reincarnation thread which I just read (what did Jesus mean by rich man, did Jesus have an ego?) What came to mind first was the parable about the man who found a treasure hid in a field and went and sold everything he had so he could buy the field and possess the treasure.
Parables are about pointing to truth. Why did Jesus teach in parables? Jesus thoroughly understood human nature, knew more about our psychology and the structure of our being than any psychologist today. So Jesus knew that you can't just tell people what the truth is, they have to discover it for themselves. Parables are sort of like smart bombs that bypass ego and go straight to the inner man, and then work from the inside out.
The field is basically the broad field of self, all the nuts and bolts and bells and whistles from top to bottom, the whole. The treasure is the innermost core of our being. The possessions the man went and sold in order to own the treasure, basically consist of ego/cultural self/false self/mask/persona/outer man/old man/self/"I".
The treasure is variously named inner man, new self in Christ, true self, no-self, Self, the unborn, Buddha-mind, Pure awareness.
Ego cannot become enlightened. To become enlightened we have to quit saying "I" to ego, cease identification with ego. If you draw a line in the sand, ego is on one side, enlightenment on the other. It's just not possible for ego to pass over the line.
This is what the parable is about. Jesus was saying the rich ego cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. To possess the treasure you have to sell everything you value as ego, you have to give up ego. Ego can't cross the line. The OT says we are worms compared to God, but it also says we are made in the image of God.
Ego is our junk. Pure awareness is the image of God. We always value one more than the other.
Basically, said elsewhere, If you seek to save your self (ego), you will lose your self (Self-awareness), but if you seek to lose your self (ego), you save (discover, realize, recollect, remember) your Self.
Also, new wine cannot be put into an old wineskin (ego), if you try it will burst the wineskin and you will lose both the new wine and the old wineskin. New wine (Pure awareness) must be put in a new wineskin.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 30, 2011 9:35:27 GMT -5
I hope nobody is composing a beginning post for the new thread about Jesus proposed on the reincarnation thread, don't wish to usurp..........however........... I was going to start a thread on this topic, myself, but thanks for saving me the trouble. I converted to Roman Catholicism years ago, and although I no longer ascribe to it, Jesus is still one of my main dudes, too. I've long been drawn toward Truth, and I never doubted that Jesus WAS Truth, as he declared, but I became Catholic with the impression that the Church held the valid interpretations of that Truth. Obviously, I was mistaken, but, well, I nonetheless picked up some valuable stuff. Indeed. I hope it's okay if I use your "parables are sort of like smart bombs" line. I really like that. Thanks for the chuckle. ;D Yes, there are a number of passages, I think, that allude to the idea that you must give up your egoic values, and take up what Adyashanti (another one of my dudes) called, "awakened values". This one is new on me, but it makes sense. I'd have to look at it in context. As a hobby, I've been translating the Latin Vulgate, so as to get as close as I can to original text (I never studied Greek or Aramaic). Hence, I'll certainly have input for this thread. Thanks again for starting it, and it's good to know that there are like hearts around here.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 30, 2011 10:33:33 GMT -5
If I had to pick between the New Testament and the Gospel of Thomas, I'd throw away the NT and stick with the GOT. It is a far better pointer, to wit:
"The kingdom of God is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it."
"Lift up a rock; I am there. Split a piece of wood; I am there also."
A man asked Jesus to tell his relatives to divide some possessions with him. Jesus turned to his disciples (one can almost hear him laugh with mock incredulity) and said, "I'm not a divider, am I?"
(Explaining how the kingdom of God is lost) "It's like a woman who was carrying a jar of meal on her head back to her home. The jar sprang a leak and the meal spilled out on the ground behind her. When she got home, she found that the jar was empty. She had not NOTICED what had happened."
"When you make the male into the female and the female into the male, and the above as the below, and when you make the two into one, then you will enter the kingdom."
"If you think the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds will get there before you, and if you think the kingdom is in the sea, then the fish will get there before you. The kingdom, however, is both within and without for those who can see."
The biggest stumbling block in Christianity is probably Jesus, himself. He said, "I am the truth," but most people don't realize that this is equally true for them. By idealizing Christ, thinking that he was special, and worshiping something outside themselves, they never imagine or realize that the truth is much closer to home. Closer than their own breath.
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Post by angela on Dec 30, 2011 11:01:20 GMT -5
adyashanti says: the goal of christianity is to produce christs, not christians.
and also: don't forget. jesus wasn't a christian.
more later, but THANK YOU for this thread. i have such deep, deep love for the jesus story. he was such a vital, living, human pointer. (being of a passionate nature, buddha didn't appeal to me until years later, when i became "spiritual")
i am going to dig through my files from the adya retreat i attended this year and find the night he gave this awesome satsang going over the parallels in the jesus and buddha stories. it was exceptional. i will offer it up to anyone who wants it once i get it isolated and ready to upload.
blessings!
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Post by Beingist on Dec 30, 2011 11:11:49 GMT -5
The biggest stumbling block in Christianity is probably Jesus, himself. He said, "I am the truth," but most people don't realize that this is equally true for them. By idealizing Christ, thinking that he was special, and worshiping something outside themselves, they never imagine or realize that the truth is much closer to home. Closer than their own breath. Yup. From John-- Even at least some of his own disciples didn't get it.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2011 18:16:26 GMT -5
I hope nobody is composing a beginning post for the new thread about Jesus proposed on the reincarnation thread, don't wish to usurp..........however........... I was going to start a thread on this topic, myself, but thanks for saving me the trouble. I converted to Roman Catholicism years ago, and although I no longer ascribe to it, Jesus is still one of my main dudes, too. I've long been drawn toward Truth, and I never doubted that Jesus WAS Truth, as he declared, but I became Catholic with the impression that the Church held the valid interpretations of that Truth. Obviously, I was mistaken, but, well, I nonetheless picked up some valuable stuff. Indeed. I hope it's okay if I use your "parables are sort of like smart bombs" line. I really like that. Thanks for the chuckle. ;D Yes, there are a number of passages, I think, that allude to the idea that you must give up your egoic values, and take up what Adyashanti (another one of my dudes) called, "awakened values". This one is new on me, but it makes sense. I'd have to look at it in context. As a hobby, I've been translating the Latin Vulgate, so as to get as close as I can to original text (I never studied Greek or Aramaic). Hence, I'll certainly have input for this thread. Thanks again for starting it, and it's good to know that there are like hearts around here. I'm glad you're OK with me starting the thread........ I'll have to go back a reference the verses I talked about, I just ripped it off early this morning (after years of thought). I look forward to your posts......And sure, you can use smart bomb
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2011 18:23:09 GMT -5
If I had to pick between the New Testament and the Gospel of Thomas, I'd throw away the NT and stick with the GOT. It is a far better pointer, to wit: "The kingdom of God is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it." "Lift up a rock; I am there. Split a piece of wood; I am there also." A man asked Jesus to tell his relatives to divide some possessions with him. Jesus turned to his disciples (one can almost hear him laugh with mock incredulity) and said, "I'm not a divider, am I?" (Explaining how the kingdom of God is lost) "It's like a woman who was carrying a jar of meal on her head back to her home. The jar sprang a leak and the meal spilled out on the ground behind her. When she got home, she found that the jar was empty. She had not NOTICED what had happened." "When you make the male into the female and the female into the male, and the above as the below, and when you make the two into one, then you will enter the kingdom." "If you think the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds will get there before you, and if you think the kingdom is in the sea, then the fish will get there before you. The kingdom, however, is both within and without for those who can see." The biggest stumbling block in Christianity is probably Jesus, himself. He said, "I am the truth," but most people don't realize that this is equally true for them. By idealizing Christ, thinking that he was special, and worshiping something outside themselves, they never imagine or realize that the truth is much closer to home. Closer than their own breath. Yea, the Gospel of Thomas is good. I look forward to some further posting by you, knowing you have had a lot to say on this subject previously........
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2011 18:37:59 GMT -5
adyashanti says: the goal of christianity is to produce christs, not christians. and also: don't forget. jesus wasn't a christian. more later, but THANK YOU for this thread. i have such deep, deep love for the jesus story. he was such a vital, living, human pointer. (being of a passionate nature, buddha didn't appeal to me until years later, when i became "spiritual") i am going to dig through my files from the adya retreat i attended this year and find the night he gave this awesome satsang going over the parallels in the jesus and buddha stories. it was exceptional. i will offer it up to anyone who wants it once i get it isolated and ready to upload. blessings! You really need to thank beingist, the impetus came from him on the reincarnation thread (but I couldn't wait ;D ). I would be very interested in the adyashanti talks. later....
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Post by acewall on Dec 30, 2011 21:43:49 GMT -5
If I had to pick between the New Testament and the Gospel of Thomas, I'd throw away the NT and stick with the GOT. It is a far better pointer, to wit: "The kingdom of God is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it." "Lift up a rock; I am there. Split a piece of wood; I am there also." A man asked Jesus to tell his relatives to divide some possessions with him. Jesus turned to his disciples (one can almost hear him laugh with mock incredulity) and said, "I'm not a divider, am I?" (Explaining how the kingdom of God is lost) "It's like a woman who was carrying a jar of meal on her head back to her home. The jar sprang a leak and the meal spilled out on the ground behind her. When she got home, she found that the jar was empty. She had not NOTICED what had happened." "When you make the male into the female and the female into the male, and the above as the below, and when you make the two into one, then you will enter the kingdom." "If you think the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds will get there before you, and if you think the kingdom is in the sea, then the fish will get there before you. The kingdom, however, is both within and without for those who can see." The biggest stumbling block in Christianity is probably Jesus, himself. He said, "I am the truth," but most people don't realize that this is equally true for them. By idealizing Christ, thinking that he was special, and worshiping something outside themselves, they never imagine or realize that the truth is much closer to home. Closer than their own breath. like your post ZD. gunna investigage Gospel of Thomas
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Post by Beingist on Dec 30, 2011 22:22:57 GMT -5
I have a strange hobby. I translate the Latin Vulgate.
I do this for two reasons. First, I learned and studied Ancient Latin in college, and I don't want to lose my familiarity with the language. Secondly, as a former converted Roman Catholic, and as one who perceives the record of Jesus' words as expressing universal truths, it helps me to understand those truths in light of a more non-dualist perspective. Granted, since the Gospel was written in Koine Greek and Aramaic, the Vulgate is not an original source. But since I never studied Koine Greek and Aramaic, the Vulgate is the closest thing I have to a literal translation of the original languages (compiled in the late 4th century), and is less corrupted by more recent interpretations (including the King James version, translated from the Greek, but a thousand years later than the Vulgate).
In any event, and aside from the Latin, I think the Gospel nonetheless remains rich with insights into a spirituality that is not traditionally Christian, and I was curious to see if there were any others in this forum who have interpreted any verses of the Gospel non-traditionally. This is not to say that the Gospel offers nothing that can't be interpreted traditionally, but rather that, from what I've studied (both in Latin and in English), non-traditional interpretations are no less valid than the traditional ones, and I'm curious to see what anyone else may have interpreted.
One of my favorite verses is the following, from the Gospel of Matthew:
"No one can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
For that reason I say to you, do not worry for your lives, what you may eat, nor for your body, what may be worn. Is not life more than food? And the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air, since they neither sow, nor reap, nor congregate in granaries, and your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of much more (value) than they? And which (of you), (by) thinking, can add to your stature one cubit? And about clothes, what are you bothered (about)? Consider the lilies of the field, in the way they grow: neither do they toil nor do they weave. But I say to you, not even Solomon in all his glory is covered as one such as these. And if a blade of grass of the field, which is today, and tomorrow is sent into the oven, God so clothes, how much more you, (O, you) of little faith?
So, do not be worried, saying, ‘what shall we eat?’ or ‘what shall we drink?’ or ‘in what shall we be clothed?’ For all these things people seek after. For your Father knows that you need all these things. Seek, therefore, first, the kingship of God, and his fairness, and all these things will be assigned to you. Do not, therefore, be worried about tomorrow, for the day will worry about itself. Its maladies suffice for the day.” Matthew 6:24-30
For me, this passage clearly says, "be in the moment", and "have no attachments", certainly a novel concept back around the 30's A.D., but nonetheless highly applicable now.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 30, 2011 22:36:00 GMT -5
It wasn't until lost hidden copies of the gospel of Tomas were found in the dead sea scrolls did the actual saying of Jesus emerge Just a note (sorry, but as an historian, I gotta add footnotes)-- Not to knock the Gospel of Thomas, as I've read it, and have found some very interesting sayings (including some that are also in the synoptic Gospels), but its origins are still rather sketchy.
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Post by enigma on Dec 30, 2011 22:53:19 GMT -5
It wasn't until lost hidden copies of the gospel of Tomas were found in the dead sea scrolls did the actual saying of Jesus emerge Just a note (sorry, but as an historian, I gotta add footnotes)-- Not to knock the Gospel of Thomas, as I've read it, and have found some very interesting sayings (including some that are also in the synoptic Gospels), but its origins are still rather sketchy. I dunno nuthin bout it's origin, though as with ZD and Tath, I find quite a bit of resonance with it.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 30, 2011 23:11:42 GMT -5
Just a note (sorry, but as an historian, I gotta add footnotes)-- Not to knock the Gospel of Thomas, as I've read it, and have found some very interesting sayings (including some that are also in the synoptic Gospels), but its origins are still rather sketchy. I dunno nuthin bout it's origin, though as with ZD and Tath, I find quite a bit of resonance with it. As do I, which is why my post above is only a footnote.
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Post by esponja on Dec 30, 2011 23:15:30 GMT -5
Ok I need to read through this thread properly, but I just had to say I love all this. Finally (will refrain from swearing) this stuff is making sense. I was also raised RC, not very practicing though, and I always felt something was missing from the teachings, like answers were just palmed off. I hear it is being taught in schools in a much more spiritual way these days. My youngest is about to start RC school, I'm just keen to see Truth so I can impart my knowledge at home alongside whatever the school teaches.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 30, 2011 23:26:20 GMT -5
Ok I need to read through this thread properly, but I just had to say I love all this. Finally (will refrain from swearing) this stuff is making sense. I was also raised RC, not very practicing though, and I always felt something was missing from the teachings, like answers were just palmed off. I hear it is being taught in schools in a much more spiritual way these days. My youngest is about to start RC school, I'm just keen to see Truth so I can impart my knowledge at home alongside whatever the school teaches. You may want to stick around, then, because eventually, I'm likely to be compelled to do a minor dissertation on the Eucharist.
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