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Post by vacant on Apr 20, 2011 10:59:27 GMT -5
Funny that you refer to LM, I too have been revisiting some of his great old posts.
This is a gem of a thread with its wonderfully candid baring of all. Yes, circumstances, moods and states of mind change endlessly and there is no button to freeze-frame any of it, neither the bits we prefer nor the uncomfortable ones. While that’s relatively easy to note, I agree that it’s quite another story to accept, hence the suffering. I find very interesting that E mentions
because I used to confuse trust with blind faith. Blind faith is only wishful thinking but there is valid knowing within trust, that which is based on seeing that the suffering is the feeling of disconnection from Source… IOW the gut recognition that Source exists.
In the midst of recurring struggle I find useful to lean on that trust to express gratitude for it all as it is, messy like that but not out of order. That often leads to rediscovering again and again what the process of surrendering is about. The universe presents a set of circumstances, including various degrees of contentment or discontentment, and it comes useful to admit both futility and presumption of wanting to exert some influence or wishing any part of it all different. Critically that includes wishes for peace, liberation or enlightenment.
Agreed that the need for courage wasn’t much on the sign-up sheet ;D but there was some murmurs of need for humility… Problem is humility is not some virtue that one can strive to have and apply, rather humility is what happens when life has humiliated us (again, the suffering)
So when we notice we are trying (too hard) that is a clue to relax, release, let go. The Source and its beckoning wont disappear, there is no use thinking that if we stop pedaling our push-bike up-hill the world will stop its rotation! I remember when I didn’t get Tolle and Harding when they’d recommend to REST in that empty conscious space. It’s clearer of late what a restful place it is when I abandon any intention to temper with what is.
Also other times are harder struggles… well that’s the slaps and the grinding mill, I know of nothing that can be done but yell!
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Post by jasonl on Apr 20, 2011 13:36:54 GMT -5
This is a heartfelt thread for me. And what E said about surrendering the desire for happiness, how incredibly counterintuitive that can be for the mind. But with every moment of pain, confusion, anger, despair, you will likely find an underlying sense that "something is happening here", a knowing that sometimes things gotta play out, and to rest in that knowing/witnessing, even if what is being witnessed appears to be a crucifixion of sorts.
The spiritual path is one of utter aloneness. How can the absence of separation be anything but? Life will never give you more than you can handle, that much you can bank on. The pull of Truth is a push away from illusion, and this is not something any rational mind is going to enjoy. The journey is a timeless unfolding. The Peace at the Center is and always has been There, You, Source, Truth. But its not created by the mind. The peace is not derived from the mind, from interpretation, but rather exists innocently in the absence of interpretation or self.
There may be times when the flow is telling us to put the game down for a bit, and get back to life, and even "old modes of thought". There may be a time when you recognize that this is no longer possible, or desirable for that matter. As individual human beings we each have to find our own way. Never look to anyone to tell you how to think, but dont be scared to ask life for a helping hand. You just might find it in the darndest place...
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alpha
New Member
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Post by alpha on Apr 20, 2011 15:33:00 GMT -5
I still miss him, as he was helpfull to me, he often gave the advice "ease into it". I feel that he did'nt leave voluntary as he seemed a true teacher, however this forum is blessed with teachers like ZD, E, and others...
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Post by teetown on Apr 20, 2011 17:33:38 GMT -5
Ha! That's great. I feel that way myself. I recall another quote by Ramana I think, something along the lines of "Your head is already in the jaws of the lion." LM has some excellent wisdom on these forums by the way. Wonder whatever happend to him.
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Post by question on Apr 21, 2011 23:35:36 GMT -5
I find very interesting that E mentions because I used to confuse trust with blind faith. Blind faith is only wishful thinking but there is valid knowing within trust, that which is based on seeing that the suffering is the feeling of disconnection from Source… IOW the gut recognition that Source exists. Are you sure that suffering is the feeling of disconnection from Source? Why would the disconnection be expressed in a feeling of a specific kind of suffering, why not in hunger or fatigue? If the disconnection is perceived AND expressed, then doesn't it follow that Source is unconsciously determined to be something specific? How can that possibly happen without simultaneously having a distorted perception of the nature of Source? Moreover, to conclude that since there is a feeling of disconnection there must be a knowing on at least an unconscious level that Source exists is like a conclusion that since I'm hungry there must be food in my fridge. I feel like this rationale is actually one of the factors that keep the suffering alive, because it suggests that since the suffering is intense one must be getting closer to Source.
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Post by vacant on Apr 22, 2011 9:46:41 GMT -5
You pose a valid question and I do not doubt that at that point “simultaneously having a distorted perception of the nature of Source” is exactly what is going on. In fact it looks to me like many of us gang of posters here are at that point, having distorted perceptions of both small s self and capitalised Self, but distorted perception of the nature of Source IS however a perception of Source, albeit intuited, which allows the element of trust I am referring to (and so I thought Enigma but I cannot speak for him).
I understand that intuition should be checked and double checked but it is IMO a valuable tool, it can also be near irresistible, and Source’s first port of entry through to "us" in the game of revelation. Shall I dare say that you, as a prominent enquirer in these pages are here because of your intuition on the existence of Source, perception distorted or accurate, existence provable or not?
No, not necessarily in my fridge, but it does mean that nourishing exists. Edit: that was the point!
So do I, it might be part and parcel of the seeker’s syndrome
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Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 22, 2011 9:56:08 GMT -5
Are you sure that suffering is the feeling of disconnection from Source? Why would the disconnection be expressed in a feeling of a specific kind of suffering, why not in hunger or fatigue? If the disconnection is perceived AND expressed, then doesn't it follow that Source is unconsciously determined to be something specific? How can that possibly happen without simultaneously having a distorted perception of the nature of Source? Moreover, to conclude that since there is a feeling of disconnection there must be a knowing on at least an unconscious level that Source exists is like a conclusion that since I'm hungry there must be food in my fridge. I feel like this rationale is actually one of the factors that keep the suffering alive, because it suggests that since the suffering is intense one must be getting closer to Source. "Source" is a pointer to That which is prior to all this carrying on that is distracting. Be at the "source" from which you act, and consciously pull in attention from all these thingies that you seem to imply, through your questioning, are important distinctions to understanding. There YOU are, but th only way to "get here" is to totally surrender to the very fact that YOU simply exist. It ain't meaningful or anything , but you can feel it, sense it, and ll the rest,,,,but "those tings" aren't IT either. Mind dismisses this, as it wants something being pointed at, so IT can see it. Can't. Suffering is a symptom that the believing has taken on a dimension, a limited reality, of its own within the greater context of the WHOLE; the gravity of which is pulling in the energy of your attention into a limited world view (a consensual reality that can be related to). The 'hunger' and 'fatigue' are just versions of the same distractions and/or distinctions maintaining this limited view of reality...a lot of it is culturally maintained, but it is deeper than that. The 'disconnection'mentioned doesn't actually exist, but is perceived to by that illusion of self that can still be obseved from the Source. YOU are Source, and can not observe Source. Source can observe all that consciousness and mind stuff, but can not be bothered with it too much, even if IT plays as if the ignorance is bothered with/inspired by/ empowered by it (just lots of projection, reflection, and ignorance). If an individual (self) feels perplexed or trapped, such suffering is a symptom of using a projection to reflect back and give rise to a sense of 'otherness' and the ignorance of 'self', and thus feels confined by some paradox. The mind is just that fricken amazing, but Source is not mesmerized and drawn into its game too too much....thought the experience of such can seem like a fun ride...in a way, kinda still a suffering. Rationale? ----already buying into the separation...is symptomatic of some believing/manifestation of suffering. Disclaimer: I'll have to read this tomorrow, and possibly edit. I just finished a week of intense program evaluations with visiting professors, millions and millions of meetings, silly politics playing out,,,,,,all the rest, and my head is feelign the warmth of some lovely 'well-deserved' red, but I felt like blathering on, throwing match sticks out the window, hoping for someting to catch fire. Let's see what happens. G'night.
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Post by enigma on Apr 22, 2011 11:29:03 GMT -5
Okay, lemme expand on this conceptualization a bit. Hehe. We can say the cause of unhappiness is the search for happiness. The search for Truth is also a search for happiness. Mind doesn't know what to do with that since whatever it would do would be part of the search for happiness. Wind wonders 'Well, but how does that help me find happiness?'
Peace, which is an unburdening that mind will perceive as happiness, comes about when the search for happiness ends. The search keeps us asleep, but with our arms stretched out like zombies reaching for something that isn't here, and completely missing what IS here.
Yesterday consisted mostly of 10 straight hours of burning blackberry bushes in a big bonfire, and it was indescribably joyful. The delicious heat that singed the hair on my arms alternated with an equally delicious cool breeze that dried the sweat on my face. The smoke stung my eyes, and when I opened them, I was captivated by these gorgeous 'God rays' as the sun streamed through the smoke. Marie came out and stood and watched the destructive, relentless, all consuming fire and said "It's so peaceful", which gave me a big ole grin and I thought, 'Yup, that's IT.' The crunch of brush under my feet, the wind through the trees, the smell of burning brush, even the beautiful patterns of bright red and dark crimson from the blood on my arms. I was deliriously happy.
Maybe it sounds crazy to some, but the point is that I was just moving without trying to get somewhere; not checking to see if my experience lived up to my expectations of a happy experience, and so there is just this movement from pain to pleasure, danger to safety, ugliness to beauty, fearsome destruction to peace, and back again in some kind of Yin-Yang'ish dance of aliveness, and all because I've given up wanting something that isn't already here, and even this fills me with gratitude toward nobody in particular. I can't lose any of it because I never had it. I can't forget what is needed because nothing is needed. The stark simplicity of all that belies any attempt to weave and wend a path to it, and so the path simply ends.
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Post by question on Apr 22, 2011 12:40:56 GMT -5
distorted perception of the nature of Source IS however a perception of Source, albeit intuited, which allows the element of trust I am referring to Good point. Let's explore this further and see where we end up. My choice of words when I said that "the perception of Source is distorted" was incorrect, what I meant was that Source isn't seen at all, what is seen is merely a surrogate that is believed and hoped to be Source. And then we work towards what we believe to be the Source and we never get there. We never get there because we're working towards making an imagination turn into reality. I'd suspect that source is either seen perfectly or not at all and that there is no in-between. How can it be seen 92%? Then we believe that it's the elusive 8% that we just can't get right and we think that we have to work harder and try to let go more. Basically I suspect that it's exactly our intuition that is deceiving us. This is the reason why I can't have faith based on intuition. Or, we need to clarify the mechanism of how Source is intuited, because for the reasons I've mentioned I can't see how such intuition is possible without being subtly but completely misleading. No, not necessarily in my fridge, but it does mean that nourishing exists. Well, technically it does not. With hunger we have a framework from which we can safely assume that hunger is a useful function that coordinates the function of eating. But with our existential problem it isn't so clear, because there is no food that can satisfy our existential hunger. The existential hunger feeds on itself and there is no honest interest in ending the hunger. As we have explored before here the actual fulfillment is the collapse of entire structure. But there is never a specific fulfillment to the hunger, the collapse seems to be more like that the context itself falls away.
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Post by enigma on Apr 22, 2011 13:03:29 GMT -5
Basically I suspect that it's exactly our intuition that is deceiving us. This is the reason why I can't have faith based on intuition. Or, we need to clarify the mechanism of how Source is intuited, because for the reasons I've mentioned I can't see how such intuition is possible without being subtly but completely misleading. I wouldn't say it's intuition that is deceiving, but rather mind's interpretation of that intuition, and all interpretations are inherently deceptive. You know that you exist (It's an intuitive realization), though you don't know what that is, and you don't perceive what that is. Any perception would be in error since your existence can't be objectified. Knowing that you exist is already IT. Everything else is a conceptual overlay. If you knew nothing more than that you exist, there wouldn't be a problem to solve.What we're doing is trying to solve the problem created by the ideas about what that existence consists of. Yup, yup.
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Post by Portto on Apr 22, 2011 16:40:49 GMT -5
Okay, lemme expand on this conceptualization a bit. Hehe. We can say the cause of unhappiness is the search for happiness. The search for Truth is also a search for happiness. Mind doesn't know what to do with that since whatever it would do would be part of the search for happiness. Wind wonders 'Well, but how does that help me find happiness?' Peace, which is an unburdening that mind will perceive as happiness, comes about when the search for happiness ends. The search keeps us asleep, but with our arms stretched out like zombies reaching for something that isn't here, and completely missing what IS here. Yesterday consisted mostly of 10 straight hours of burning blackberry bushes in a big bonfire, and it was indescribably joyful. The delicious heat that singed the hair on my arms alternated with an equally delicious cool breeze that dried the sweat on my face. The smoke stung my eyes, and when I opened them, I was captivated by these gorgeous 'God rays' as the sun streamed through the smoke. Marie came out and stood and watched the destructive, relentless, all consuming fire and said "It's so peaceful", which gave me a big ole grin and I thought, 'Yup, that's IT.' The crunch of brush under my feet, the wind through the trees, the smell of burning brush, even the beautiful patterns of bright red and dark crimson from the blood on my arms. I was deliriously happy. Maybe it sounds crazy to some, but the point is that I was just moving without trying to get somewhere; not checking to see if my experience lived up to my expectations of a happy experience, and so there is just this movement from pain to pleasure, danger to safety, ugliness to beauty, fearsome destruction to peace, and back again in some kind of Yin-Yang'ish dance of aliveness, and all because I've given up wanting something that isn't already here, and even this fills me with gratitude toward nobody in particular. I can't lose any of it because I never had it. I can't forget what is needed because nothing is needed. The stark simplicity of all that belies any attempt to weave and wend a path to it, and so the path simply ends. Beautiful story, Enigma! That's how it goes.
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Post by vacant on Apr 22, 2011 16:47:14 GMT -5
distorted perception of the nature of Source IS however a perception of Source, albeit intuited, which allows the element of trust I am referring to Good point. Let's explore this further and see where we end up. My choice of words when I said that "the perception of Source is distorted" was incorrect, what I meant was that Source isn't seen at all, what is seen is merely a surrogate that is believed and hoped to be Source. And then we work towards what we believe to be the Source and we never get there. We never get there because we're working towards making an imagination turn into reality. I'd suspect that source is either seen perfectly or not at all and that there is no in-between. How can it be seen 92%? Then we believe that it's the elusive 8% that we just can't get right and we think that we have to work harder and try to let go more. Basically I suspect that it's exactly our intuition that is deceiving us. This is the reason why I can't have faith based on intuition. Or, we need to clarify the mechanism of how Source is intuited, because for the reasons I've mentioned I can't see how such intuition is possible without being subtly but completely misleading. No, not necessarily in my fridge, but it does mean that nourishing exists. Well, technically it does not. With hunger we have a framework from which we can safely assume that hunger is a useful function that coordinates the function of eating. But with our existential problem it isn't so clear, because there is no food that can satisfy our existential hunger. The existential hunger feeds on itself and there is no honest interest in ending the hunger. As we have explored before here the actual fulfillment is the collapse of entire structure. But there is never a specific fulfillment to the hunger, the collapse seems to be more like that the context itself falls away. Righty-O. Thank you for rattling the cage. Doctor orders a silent walk
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Post by howtalk on Apr 22, 2011 20:25:00 GMT -5
i would recommend to keep investigating the mind but also invvestigate "how" you are going to monitor the investigation
Rose was very clear that we need to work continuously to monitor our point of reference, with an unreliable point of reference (any egoic state) than anything we belive we are seeing or percieving will of course be not true... Thus we have to define the perciever- what we are using as a definition machine, as much as anything we try to define
H
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Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 22, 2011 21:16:51 GMT -5
Haha, I have no time to edit....the weather just opened up so beautifully today. I did have a nice haikuy thingy written from yesterday's rainy/foggy morning bus ride through the hills and city, but it up and disappeared.
Oh well, some of the stuff here reminds me of the movie "Being There" with Peter Sellers. I think I'd enjoy watching it again, and contemplate the perspectives of the characters....it really impressed my as a young adolescent.
Off to the trails!
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Post by question on Apr 23, 2011 23:27:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't say it's intuition that is deceiving, but rather mind's interpretation of that intuition, and all interpretations are inherently deceptive. You know that you exist (It's an intuitive realization), though you don't know what that is, and you don't perceive what that is. Any perception would be in error since your existence can't be objectified. Knowing that you exist is already IT. Everything else is a conceptual overlay. If you knew nothing more than that you exist, there wouldn't be a problem to solve.What we're doing is trying to solve the problem created by the ideas about what that existence consists of. Are you saying that the intuition is already the perfect knowing of Source and that this knowing is identical with the knowing that Being exists and what the nature of that existence is? But when mind touches it then the knowing is turned into information and gets distorted? If this is the case then it's still problematic, because I don't know that the essential content of the intuition is accurate even prior to mind's distortion of that content. How do I know that the intuitive knowing of "Being/Source exists" is pointing towards what it promises? There is an intuitive realization that the earth is flat, that space is 3-dimensional or that time is linear, but it turns out that the content of that intuition isn't accurate.
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