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Post by enigma on Mar 8, 2011 21:21:41 GMT -5
Marie and I were talking yesterday about how genuine realizations leave no tracks in the mind. She said one day she'll have what seems like a powerful realization, and the next day remember nothing about it. I said that's because it's not an experience that can be recalled. It can, however, be seen again, now.
This is the nature of realization. Though it does inform the mind in various ways, it's timeless and it remains timeless, which means it cannot become an experience stored in memory, which is how we usually (but not always) talk about experience. What can become an experience is the emotional impact of the realization or the mental conclusions derived from it.
It should be noted that realization is not the acquisition of knowledge, or the perception of an event, but the seeing of what is not so, leaving the simplicity of what is obvious, and about which there is really nothing to say.
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Post by Portto on Mar 8, 2011 21:34:54 GMT -5
Marie and I were talking yesterday about how genuine realizations leave no tracks in the mind. So this is how God stays hidden! Can't fit in the mind...
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 8, 2011 21:37:16 GMT -5
Marie and I were talking yesterday about how genuine realizations leave no tracks in the mind. She said one day she'll have what seems like a powerful realization, and the next day remember nothing about it. Most likely a Ginko moment Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 8, 2011 21:44:46 GMT -5
Marie and I were talking yesterday about how genuine realizations leave no tracks in the mind. So this is how God stays hidden! Can't fit in the mind... God doesn't like cramped spaces. Hehe.
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Post by angela on Mar 9, 2011 0:04:46 GMT -5
adya told the silliest story in satsang once about a guy who came to him, who had been sure he'd found all the answers of the universe, one night when he and his friends were on mushrooms. the guy had "figured it all out" and had jotted a note down on some paper, so he'd remember the secret to everything. the next day, the guy had to tear the house apart, to even find the slip of paper.... which he eventually located in a shoebox at the back of a closet somewhere. his friends and he gathered around together, to open up the paper and remind themselves of the secret of all, and when the unfolded the paper it said:
IS
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2011 1:21:57 GMT -5
Something sorta kinda maybe similar a little bit happened to me many years ago. Two nights in a row I had a kind of somnambulistic realization (Before I realized that realization isn't an experience. Hehe.) of the answer to God, the universe and everything, and both times as soon as mind kicked in it went away. The third night the same thing happened, and I realized the answer. The answer to God, the universe and everything is......................................the question is meaningless. Hehe.
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Post by kate on Mar 9, 2011 5:57:06 GMT -5
I can never remember much about a realization, except for the experiences around the edges of the realization. And what I find most interesting is the way interest in the concepts disappears afterwards.
I’ve been told and read a million times that no thought is any more true than any other thought. Conceptually I sort of understood this, but there was a great interest in the concept, which I would ponder and reflect on and try to dissect often. A few nights ago I really saw the truth of this and I couldn’t say how that seeing came about or what the seeing even was, but when I looked back it wasn’t just that I couldn’t explain it to myself but that I could barely summon the interest in it.
The same thing happened when sitting on a train I saw a woman comment on a sign on a building I had noticed and thought about many times myself. Her assessment and comment on this sign was in total contrast to my own, but I suddenly saw that prior to the commentary, what is seeing the sign is the same thing that sees the sign when I see it. I don’t know how or why this was seen but since then I don’t have any interest in the concepts surrounding this realization.
I suppose the fact that the realization would erase the question should be obvious, but it still amazes me.
What I’m wondering about know is that surely the only way what is not true can be seen is from the perspective of what is true. And yet I still don’t get that very core issue of identification with separation and how it happens. It seems so improbable and yet there it is. Then sometimes it’s not there and things can be seen clearly. I can’t see where the snag happens. Thoughts are believed but what is doing the believing?
I then wonder what belief even is. More thoughts it would seem. More of exactly the same stuff. It’s all the same stuff! Ugh!
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Post by charliegee on Mar 9, 2011 8:31:54 GMT -5
its really not about that ...
and its not about not being about that either ...
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Post by therealfake on Mar 9, 2011 10:55:59 GMT -5
I can never remember much about a realization, except for the experiences around the edges of the realization. And what I find most interesting is the way interest in the concepts disappears afterwards. I’ve been told and read a million times that no thought is any more true than any other thought. Conceptually I sort of understood this, but there was a great interest in the concept, which I would ponder and reflect on and try to dissect often. A few nights ago I really saw the truth of this and I couldn’t say how that seeing came about or what the seeing even was, but when I looked back it wasn’t just that I couldn’t explain it to myself but that I could barely summon the interest in it. The same thing happened when sitting on a train I saw a woman comment on a sign on a building I had noticed and thought about many times myself. Her assessment and comment on this sign was in total contrast to my own, but I suddenly saw that prior to the commentary, what is seeing the sign is the same thing that sees the sign when I see it. I don’t know how or why this was seen but since then I don’t have any interest in the concepts surrounding this realization. I suppose the fact that the realization would erase the question should be obvious, but it still amazes me. What I’m wondering about know is that surely the only way what is not true can be seen is from the perspective of what is true. And yet I still don’t get that very core issue of identification with separation and how it happens. It seems so improbable and yet there it is. Then sometimes it’s not there and things can be seen clearly. I can’t see where the snag happens. Thoughts are believed but what is doing the believing? I then wonder what belief even is. More thoughts it would seem. More of exactly the same stuff. It’s all the same stuff! Ugh! If you were bathing in Bliss, Love and Oneness, oblivious to form of any kind, including the sense of self.... What would it take to leave that? What could spark a need to want to 'know' yourself? In the absence of thought and another, why would you create a universe 14 billion years ago? Isn't awakening coming full circle, to the moment prior to your big bang? In a universe of possibilities, manifestation arose... It's a mystery, a mystery that was given the gift to recognize it's creator, it's self, the truth... Along with that gift to recognize the truth, came the ability to recognize that which is not truth, but a relative truth... We may not have free will, but we have the 'choice' to see truth, or see illusion. Wholeness or separation, the choice is always there...
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Post by zendancer on Mar 9, 2011 11:26:32 GMT -5
Ummmm. Everyone who sees that the truth cannot be captured in language has to use whatever flavor of language seems most appropriate for talking about the truth. In my case, I would say that there is no choice about anything because the flavor of "no-choice" comes closer to what I have experienced than "choice."
Some teachers like to say that we have a choice in what we do, but what they're pointing to is beyond either the idea of choice or no-choice.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2011 11:37:56 GMT -5
"I can never remember much about a realization, except for the experiences around the edges of the realization. And what I find most interesting is the way interest in the concepts disappears afterwards."
There ya go. And from that I know that you know what it is to realize. The realization itself is not the realization of some knowledge, or the experience of something that is remembered, it's the transcending of concepts; the realization of what is NOT so, and so the interest in the concepts dissolves and you are left knowing nothing. This is a step toward freedom from the conceptualizing seeker, and not an experience. Interest in the concept is lost. Mind is left with nothing to grasp. Everything just is what it is and the questions make no sense. We look at questions and realize they are misconceived.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 12:03:36 GMT -5
yea, i think i get this. the only thing remaining from one of those realizations/experiences (not sure which it would be wrt this convo) for me is the moment when something happened that can be remembered. specifically, a lot of mind-blowing stuff happened which i can't articulate or remember/re-experience. It ended by way of a self conscious thought: "I am pre-thought." that thought echoed in my head in massive booming volume. but i think that's what it seemed like because there was 'nothing else' there. anyway, that thought, which isn't the realization/experience, just the boundary, is the only memory i have of it. nothing special.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2011 12:10:30 GMT -5
Right, and yet that realization 'informs mind' in such a way that the relationship to thought is altered.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 9, 2011 12:48:27 GMT -5
Well Maxie at least you posted correctly here. What they are speaking about is both a experience and a realization Enigma is just stuck on it cuz he has difficultly believing that both happen in the same moment and discards the actual experience.
What happens when you have any realization is as you say it's a movement or shift through a imaginary boundary that you my or may not know is there. Once this happens it is likely you will have no memory of it but you may. This is not black and white here. What you will know is that something has shifted for you. How do you know something has shifted is by seeing the way you are now EXPERIENCING life. It could be just the way you look at the little things but you know it's not in the exact same way as before.
Which reminds me when I was young and went up to Alaska for a couple of months to make some money. I was in my early 20's just out of the Air Force back from Vietnam. Now at the ripe age of 57 I look back and see how invincible I felt when I was young. I think most has to do with a much larger energy level.
Anyhow I took what money I had and drove my 1972 Nova up to Nome. What I was hoping to find to make money was Fossil Ivory which I was told by a Air force buddy who was part Native was all over the beaches up there. At this time it was legal to walk the beaches and whatever you found was yours. In today's market Fossil Ivory commands around $300 a pound or more back then it was around $30 a pound. To get a idea of what a pound looks like it's roughly the size of the handset of a cordless phone. Well after driving all the way up with my camping supplies I began to walk the beaches and I was not finding much at all. In the 2 days of walking miles I found a small piece about the size of a Cigar. On the 3rd day I decided to pack up and drive back to Cali when I saw this Indian walking up to me in the AM and ask if I had some Coffee so we sat down and he asked me what I was doing? After I told him that my whole find was this small Ivory Cigar he laugh and said it's all over the beach here. He told me that in some places he would walk less than a 1/4 mile and have so much of it that he had to stop as he could carry no more. Well now I was listening with both ears and both eyes!
He said the reason you are not finding it is you do not know how to see it. It's invisible to you. However once you know the secret it will appear to you always. Ok I am listening please do tell. Better to show you than speak he says bringing the coffee cup to his weathered face. He got up and just began walking on the beach. We were no more than 50 ft when he says there a piece right there! It's a nice piece pick it up. I saw nothing and began to wonder if this guy was all there, he pushed me a bit right there it is are you still blind. I looked straight down and by my foot I saw what looked just like a long piece of wood covered with mud. I said you mean this and when I went to pick up the piece he yell stop do not touch it now and actually grabbed me and pulled me back.
He then said to me here now I share with you what you were missing. He told me to step back a few feet from the piece and look at everything that was around this piece and to tell him what I saw. I saw rocks, a puddle of water some moss and the piece. He said what is different in the picture for you. I looked and then I got it! The piece of Ivory was the only thing that looked out of place. It was not a natural place for something to be at. I then saw that it looked like wood but it was still in a subtle way different.
Well I could go on but just to say I found enough Fossil Ivory that summer to buy a brand new car and then some.
In a way very similar this is how realizations help you. Once I knew how to look the Fossil Ivory was popping out all over the place like blooming flowers. Something had changed in my consciousness where now it took no effort at all to find the Ivory it was just happening.
Happy Hunting Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2011 13:03:56 GMT -5
I guess you're still looking for valuable fossils......
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