levels of "it"?

[park]

Hello peeps.

This quote from the first stanza of The Tao Te Ching has grabbed my attention.

Many people on this board say that "we" are oneness/amness/awareness. I take this is the "mistery" in the below quote.

Where does awareness come from? What is "darkness"? Do you/have you known it?

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Thanks,
Park

[enigma]

Ancient Chinese is a bitch to translate. Hehe. There are hundreds of translations, so if you look around a bit, you may find one that says whatever you want it to say. Here's a couple, which is not to imply better or worse, just to demonstrate the point. (Yes, they are both translations of Ch 1)



"The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful."



"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders"

[zendancer]

Yes, the quality of the translation depends upon the translator's personal attainment and also eloquence in finding suitable words to convey the message. I've read at least ten translations of the TTC but only a few seemed adequate.

Most Rumi poems, for example, are miserably translated, but Stephen Mitchell's translations are excellent because they capture the beauty and aliveness of what Rumi was writing about.

[michaelsees]

I agree translation can be all over the place. Now of course there is a way to know the true from the false. It you wish a true one then you need to do a bit of research on the translator. For example if one is a lover of Rumi and has studied Rumi for years then you have a very high chance of getting a good translation. It makes no difference if the grammar is off or he writes like a child be assured the essence shall be there.

From the version you posted for me it's easy to tell that the word darkness is used in place of the word void which is based on my own experience so it resonates with me. However with someone else that has no experience of the void or a differnt one they will see the word darkness to mean something else.
My point is the best translation is one that touches and confirms your own experience.

Michael

[park]

So, all in all, would you say there are two perspectives, or three?

Jesus had The Father, The Son, and H. Spirit.
Socrates had the Shadows, the Moon, the Sun.
Seemingly, the translation I posted has three too. (but this seems debatable).

Basically, what is "it" that (fundamentally) exists, in your view? What does it look like?

When y'all say "how could I go anywhere?", does this include the dissolution of Universe/Space/Time/Awareness?

I've had experiences pointing both ways (but maybe not deep or "correct" enough), but nothing conclusive, so I find it interesting to hear what you think.

[zendancer]

Ummmmm. I don't feel very good about the word "perspective" used in this context. I'll stick with "oneness" as my word for pointing to the Infinite. No need to add legs to a snake. LOL

What does IT look like? Well, at the moment it looks like hands typing on a keyboard in front of a computer screen.

Does the question, "How could I possibly go anywhere?" include the dissolution of universe/space/time/awareness? Yes.

[mamza]

These two emerge together but differ in name

Holy crap, reading that was nuts. I never even thought to put the two together at the same time! LOL, how obvious was that? I knew the emptiness was there the whole time, but there was always attachment to emptiness OR form, never both at once. Hah! I think I ruined it by thinking about it, though...

[sharon]

"... I think I ruined it by thinking about it, though..." ~ Impossible

T'is emptiness that is looking at form
And form that is looking back.

[mamza]

So what happens when they look at each other at the same time? Will magical faeries appear, spray me with pixie dust znd teach me to fly? Time to FIND out. Heheeeee.

Thanks for sharing that though... I tend to forget the turkey at thanksgiving.

[park]

Let me rephrase the question and pose it again.

Bernardette Roberts entered the "unitive state" at age twenty something. She was "one with god". To become so united, she transcends the ego. (not the self - her words)

30 years later, she surpasses that state, transcends the self as such, and talks about God-head. "One glimpse of the God-head, and no-one would want God back".

This is coming from the little I read, but the details are not so important.

In the first state, she obviously thought this was a) final b) real c) that meaningful conclusions could be taken. The same, for the second one.

How does this fit with the "there is just one Insight/experience" school? What was her "status" in the first instance, and what in the second?

[michaelsees]

You would need to ask her BR had lots of experiences, she even goes into kundlini awakening etc.
Who knows states are states they come and go. What does not come and go is what we talk about here the most.

Michael

[zendancer]

That's correct. Forget about levels of "IT." Whatever is happening right this moment is IT. Whatever one might look for beyond THIS is imaginary. If you stay focused on what you can see, hear, feel, smell, or taste in this moment, your clarity, realization, and understanding will expand indefinitely.

[m]

Feb 1, 2011 17:41:48 GMT -5 zendancer said:

. No need to add legs to a snake.
.

ZD, I love that one: no legs to a snake! ... yeap! that's it boy!