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Post by therealfake on Dec 23, 2010 12:52:24 GMT -5
I think, that which I Am, must be there, before any form of consciousness arises.
Kind of like, if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
Next...
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 23, 2010 21:25:31 GMT -5
The I am is consciousness and yes consciousness exist independent from a brain. The brain is a instrument, a tool, etc. Honestly none of this matters a hoot!
Happy holidays Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 23, 2010 22:00:57 GMT -5
Some refer to the 'I Am' as the sense of existence which arises with consciousness. That which actually exists is prior to consciousness, prior to the sense of existing, and as TRF implies, must be present before consciousness arises, and so existence exists even without consciousness.
It's actually a very significant realization.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 23, 2010 22:08:19 GMT -5
It could be put that way. Nis taught that the I am is consciousness itself and he also taught that prior to consciousness there is no I am. I agree with this. However words are very limited here. We easily could be saying the same thing or not. When I said this does not matter I was referring to the realization experience. I tend to stay away from calling these "realizations" significant as the ego gets fed too much. However I will say what is significant is knowing how to use such realizations for your growth. This is the key if you do not have this you can have millions of "significant realizations" and never move forward. This is why I always say just keep going and never look back. Michael Some refer to the 'I Am' as the sense of existence which arises with consciousness. That which actually exists is prior to consciousness, prior to the sense of existing, and as TRF implies, must be present before consciousness arises, and so existence exists even without consciousness. It's actually a very significant realization.
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Post by enigma on Dec 23, 2010 22:44:05 GMT -5
It could be put that way. Nis taught that the I am is consciousness itself and he also taught that prior to consciousness there is no I am. I agree with this. However words are very limited here. We easily could be saying the same thing or not. Michael Yeah, we're saying the same thing. I Am is consciousness and arises with/as consciousness. That which IS, is what is aware of I Am, and is prior to consciousness.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 23, 2010 23:12:12 GMT -5
Michael
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Post by question on Dec 24, 2010 11:03:03 GMT -5
Michael and Enigma: According to your definition, what is the difference of Awareness and Being?
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Post by enigma on Dec 24, 2010 11:51:06 GMT -5
Same, same.
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Post by question on Dec 24, 2010 16:53:38 GMT -5
Mmkay. But then why is it that everytime I take a nap, the world keeps going? Sure does look like Being doesn't need Awareness much.
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Post by enigma on Dec 24, 2010 20:02:19 GMT -5
Mmkay. But then why is it that everytime I take a nap, the world keeps going? Sure does look like Being doesn't need Awareness much. When you take a nap, awareness is still present. You cannot NOT be present. What comes and goes are just the objects of awareness.
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Post by question on Dec 25, 2010 8:41:28 GMT -5
Mmkay. But then why is it that everytime I take a nap, the world keeps going? Sure does look like Being doesn't need Awareness much. When you take a nap, awareness is still present. You cannot NOT be present. What comes and goes are just the objects of awareness. When I'm in deep sleep there is no awareness of any kind. If you say that this is simply because there are no objects in deep sleep and therefore no recorded memory, then that is an empty argument, because there is no way for me to verify it. My awareness clearly comes and goes. Another angle is probably needed to tackle the awareness/being issue.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 12:01:24 GMT -5
Atmananda speaks a lot about the deep sleep state. Here's a little of his writings to ponder.. Michael
721. WHAT IS THE CLUE TO ONE’S OWN REAL NATURE? The only clue given to us by the unseen, to understand one’s own real nature, is the ‘deep sleep state’. That alone is ours in fact.
9. HOW IS DEEP SLEEP THE TOUCHSTONE OF ONE’S REAL NATURE? The knowledge of one object implies the ignorance of all objects other than that particular object. The ignorance of all objects in deep sleep means really the positive knowledge of the self, which shines as happiness there. Consequently, the ignorance of the ordinary man in deep sleep is really the knowledge of his own self, which is happiness and Consciousness.
Our deep sleep experience, according to the lower shastras [texts], is ignorance coupled with the sense of subjective happiness. We have already proved that the so called ignorance of the world in deep sleep is nothing but the knowledge of the self, which is happiness itself. Thus the experience in deep sleep, if properly understood, is only one; and that is our own self, which is Happiness and Peace. The rest of the statement is but a commentary upon this.
There is only one there; and hence the ignorance of the many is no experience at all.
48
296. WHAT IS THE RELATION BETWEEN DEEP SLEEP AND THE WAKING STATE? It is often stated that a man wakes up from deep sleep on hearing a sound, meaning thereby that hearing the sound was the cause of his waking up.
No one makes use of senses or mind in deep sleep, because they are not there. So the sound could not have been heard in deep sleep. And when it was heard, he must certainly have been in the waking state. An experience definitely belonging to the waking state can never be said to be the cause of the waking state. So the statement is wrong, and it is not the sound that woke him up.
Usually you wake up from the deep sleep state and you cannot find a cause for it. Why can you not assume that you likewise came to the waking state, and heard a sound? Why do you want a cause for the waking up?
1196. HOW CAN DEEP SLEEP ALLEVIATE MY PAINS OF THE WAKING STATE?
You get cured of your pain and disease immediately you get into deep sleep; and you begin to suffer again when you come back to the waking state. But if you can bring something from deep sleep to bear upon the waking state, certainly the pain will be relieved in the waking state also.
1286. THE DEEP SLEEP STATE IS ALWAYS IN THE PAST.
When you experience deep sleep, you stand identified with pure Consciousness or Peace beyond time. It can never be called the present in deep sleep. But when you refer to it from the waking state, you call the preceding state the ‘deep sleep state’ and then it is only an idea.
Similarly, every thought or perception is nothing but the ultimate Reality or knowledge, at the moment when you know it. But when you refer to it subsequently, you make an idea of it, which is not the thing referred to at all. This is the truth of the whole world, which – though a heap of thoughts, feelings and perceptions – is nothing but pure Consciousness.
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Post by question on Dec 25, 2010 13:24:55 GMT -5
I hope you have a terrible translation of the book, because what the Guru says makes no sense at all.
"The knowledge of one object implies the ignorance of all objects other than that particular object." - This needs some explaining, which unfortunately doesn't happen. But still the entire argument is based on this... let's say "counterintuitive", assumption.
"The ignorance of all objects in deep sleep means really the positive knowledge of the self, which shines as happiness there. Consequently, the ignorance of the ordinary man in deep sleep is really the knowledge of his own self, which is happiness and Consciousness. " - How convenient that there are no objects in deep sleep and hence apparently no explaining to do. But luckily the lack of objects doesn't prevent happiness or peace to creep into deep sleep (which btw, I have never experienced in deep sleep).
"Our deep sleep experience, according to the lower shastras [texts], is ignorance coupled with the sense of subjective happiness. We have already proved that the so called ignorance of the world in deep sleep is nothing but the knowledge of the self, which is happiness itself." - He didn't prove a thing.
"Thus the experience in deep sleep, if properly understood, is only one; and that is our own self, which is Happiness and Peace." - Properly understood, huh? I guess I'm excused then...
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Post by enigma on Dec 25, 2010 13:45:28 GMT -5
When you take a nap, awareness is still present. You cannot NOT be present. What comes and goes are just the objects of awareness. When I'm in deep sleep there is no awareness of any kind. If you say that this is simply because there are no objects in deep sleep and therefore no recorded memory, then that is an empty argument, because there is no way for me to verify it. My awareness clearly comes and goes. Another angle is probably needed to tackle the awareness/being issue. Yes, holds no water as a rational argument. I only mean to suggest that awareness, in this context, is more fundamental than that which awareness is 'aware of', which is referred to as consciousness. IOW, awareness is present before any object of awareness can show up. This is tricky because I'm going to ask you about an experience you couldn't possibly have had, but that's also the point. Have you ever been aware of not being 'aware of' something? Perhaps you've noticed a 'space' between the thoughts or maybe you lost a period of time even though you weren't unconscious, or something else. Some have an awareness of 'being' in deep sleep, when consciousness is absent. The object of awareness has to appear to 'something'. Most folks would say, 'well yeah, it appears to me', and when it's asked just what this 'me' is, what is found is more objects of awareness; a mind, body, thoughts, feelings, whatever. So the question is, to what do all of these objects appear, and can that be an object?
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 25, 2010 14:26:37 GMT -5
-Not at all. It makes complete sense however if you are not on or near his level you will have a hard time understanding his words simply because you have not been there yet. Everything he says is exactly the way it is. A friend of mine Greg Goode can help you with this if you want. Just send him a email from his site. It took me a while too but once you understand Atmananda you will begin to "see" that this is the direct method of awakening. Michael I hope you have a terrible translation of the book, because what the Guru says makes no sense at all. "The knowledge of one object implies the ignorance of all objects other than that particular object." - This needs some explaining, which unfortunately doesn't happen. But still the entire argument is based on this... let's say "counterintuitive", assumption. "The ignorance of all objects in deep sleep means really the positive knowledge of the self, which shines as happiness there. Consequently, the ignorance of the ordinary man in deep sleep is really the knowledge of his own self, which is happiness and Consciousness. "- How convenient that there are no objects in deep sleep and hence apparently no explaining to do. But luckily the lack of objects doesn't prevent happiness or peace to creep into deep sleep (which btw, I have never experienced in deep sleep). "Our deep sleep experience, according to the lower shastras [texts], is ignorance coupled with the sense of subjective happiness. We have already proved that the so called ignorance of the world in deep sleep is nothing but the knowledge of the self, which is happiness itself."- He didn't prove a thing. "Thus the experience in deep sleep, if properly understood, is only one; and that is our own self, which is Happiness and Peace." - Properly understood, huh? I guess I'm excused then...
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