jesse
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Post by jesse on Dec 15, 2010 19:14:28 GMT -5
(I know that analogy isn't really accurate, but I couldn't think of a more succinct thread title that was)
So I’d been looking for this door for a long time. It alluded me for years but recently turned up- seemingly out of nowhere. I opened it and immediately realized that this was something infinitely more (or, uh, less, depending on how you look at it) than I had bargained for. The dilemma here, is that now that I’ve had a peak over the edge, as it were, I am suddenly terrified of everything. It’s as if seeking was some form of escapism for me: you know- “everything’s just a projection anyway, so don’t sweat anything”. Now that I’m sure the Truth is much too heavy a thing for me to realize, or become, or whatever way you want to put it, I find myself clinging to things: chiefly relationships and existence. Not a very desirable outcome in the least.
I want to be free within the dream, not terrified to death of a nightmare. I know there’s no going back to the sleep state, and that’s not what I’m after. I just have to figure out how to function within this paradigm. I had high hopes for McKenna’s third book in that regard, but it never really expounded on “Human Adulthood” in any implimentable way (for me).
I’m struggling pretty badly with this situation, I have to admit. Any insight or reading recommendations would be very greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Jesse
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Post by enigma on Dec 15, 2010 21:13:42 GMT -5
( I know that analogy isn't really accurate, but I couldn't think of a more succinct thread title that was) So I’d been looking for this door for a long time. It alluded me for years but recently turned up- seemingly out of nowhere. I opened it and immediately realized that this was something infinitely more (or, uh, less, depending on how you look at it) than I had bargained for. The dilemma here, is that now that I’ve had a peak over the edge, as it were, I am suddenly terrified of everything. It’s as if seeking was some form of escapism for me: you know- “everything’s just a projection anyway, so don’t sweat anything”. Now that I’m sure the Truth is much too heavy a thing for me to realize, or become, or whatever way you want to put it, I find myself clinging to things: chiefly relationships and existence. Not a very desirable outcome in the least. I want to be free within the dream, not terrified to death of a nightmare. I know there’s no going back to the sleep state, and that’s not what I’m after. I just have to figure out how to function within this paradigm. I had high hopes for McKenna’s third book in that regard, but it never really expounded on “Human Adulthood” in any implimentable way (for me). I’m struggling pretty badly with this situation, I have to admit. Any insight or reading recommendations would be very greatly appreciated. Cheers, Jesse Hi Jesse As I was reading your post, I was thinking of Jed's ideas of being awake within the dream, and then you mentioned it. I don't know, but I suspect what you are experiencing IS the implementation of human adulthood. It's not an easy matter at all for most folks. |
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Post by monkkey on Dec 15, 2010 23:29:11 GMT -5
jesse- it will be a freaky process for the dream character, but it may help to clarify what it is you are identifying as, and what that entails. first of all, what did 'you' find behind door #1? then, relate that to what you are identifying as as "I" in each of these statements (you can just use the numbers below). 1. 2. 3. 4. the reason you are asked to do this is for you to clarify what you really are and what is panicing. there's the habitual identification as something in the dream/matrix that is wired into your brain (and therefore automatized perception supporting such beliefs). then there is this "nothing" from which you saw & AS you (got that glimpse), which that habitual idenitified self has no/ can not have an inkling of. identify where your seat of identity was in these numbers, and then tell the board what is struggling, and why you think it must happen (as it appears to be happening). it will be very valuable contribution for any person reading. i may just try a little socratic style Q&A to help the you dissolve the dilemma... btw, the suspense is killing the mes!  you are going off the rails on the crazy train, but there is no train, no people, no foes, no rules, no mental wounds, etc on this 'level' of non-attachment, non-resistance, non-judgment. these are not goals, they are your reality. enjoy the ride. |
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jesse
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Posts: 12
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Post by jesse on Dec 16, 2010 15:34:43 GMT -5
Monkkey-
I'm not quite sure I follow. Sorry to be obtuse. But I can if nothing else tell you that what I found behind door number one was certain oblivion. It's clear to me that not so much as a single particle of ego makes it through to the other side. And of course during the search, all you have to go on is your intellect, which falls infinitely short of being able to grasp what that really means. But you have your concepts and projections and you think, "this is what I want. ego death. awakening". Once you catch the slightest glimpse of said "oblivion" (experiential rather than intellectual, in other words), though... Golly. Now I understand what these folks mean when they say, 'You don't want this. There's no way you could want this.'
I think what's happening here is the ego that's been cultivated over the years- "Jesse"- is reacting to witnessing its, um, hypothetical (and ever-impending) death, I guess you could say. Now that it knows it is in fact totally impermanent, and what's more, illusory.. it's left reeling in that disillusionment.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 16, 2010 21:41:23 GMT -5
jesse-
no worries. it is just a communication thingy.
as you said, you are just operating in a different paradigm, a different "feeling" context, and you are looking for some sense of stability. however, most of the old tools of thinking, perception, and identification still have a momentum, and somehow do not exactly work here. thus, the panic. my sense is that you already sense this (as per your description/prognosis), and are just not being patient with the process.
to be clear, there is much less to 'the real you' than this (we can get to that later), but you are in a state of transition, and 'you the ego' is wrestling back any notion of control it can. your mind is still throwing out all kinds of illusory projections, perceiving them, and then the ego assumes "its 'separate' imaginary existence" on the perceived effects (pleasurable or painful) 'it' feels and then thinks about. in this case, you are saying things like:
yet, some strange wholeness has been experienced that is being some kind of a monkey wrench in the machinery, sabotaging the previous usual sense of reality. the light came on, but it all seems very confusing to the automatized assuming/thinking of our ego-selves as real, and thus all these 'other things' as real too. that is the separation/duality, the darkness. 'you', identified as the ego, can only exist in this dualistic paradigm, yet a recognition of some sort has occured. questions: does any of this sound 'reasonable'? can any of this suffering occur without thought?
in this situation, notice that the feeling of panic starts, and then escalates when you start to think about and reason through it and so forth. questions: can you yet sense when this occurs? have you yet learned to check this momentum?
something is disSOLVING and can not be reasoned with.
the paradox is unnerving. love it.
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Post by enigma on Dec 16, 2010 22:02:53 GMT -5
The ending of illusion is dis-illusionment, and I think it's clear to you why that would be terrifying and undesirable through the perspective of the illusory identity. Feels like death because in a way it is, but if it were known that this is "illusory" it could not be a problem. It would just be the death of an idea, and what does that even mean?
The cure for the void, oblivion, nothingness experience is to recognize there is no such thing. It's the same for the cure for the plight of the sufferer.
To say that you don't want this is really to say you, as the illusion, cannot want the end of the illusion. The illusory perspective through which all seeking must happen, cannot want a Truth that denies the reality of the one apparently seeking. Of course, you are not the illusion.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 16, 2010 22:51:29 GMT -5
The ending of illusion is dis-illusionment, and I think it's clear to you why that would be terrifying and undesirable through the perspective of the illusory identity. Feels like death because in a way it is, but if it were known that this is "illusory" it could not be a problem. It would just be the death of an idea, and what does that even mean? The cure for the void, oblivion, nothingness experience is to recognize there is no such thing. It's the same for the cure for the plight of the sufferer. To say that you don't want this is really to say you, as the illusion, cannot want the end of the illusion. The illusory perspective through which all seeking must happen, cannot want a Truth that denies the reality of the one apparently seeking. Of course, you are not the illusion. yes, you, as you actually are, caught a glimpse of being the awareness, and now the you, as the illusion, is experiencing the failing attempts of trying to make sense of the paradox, thus creating further suffering for the illusion. this will go on until IT is done doing that. |
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Post by therealfake on Dec 16, 2010 23:59:15 GMT -5
( I know that analogy isn't really accurate, but I couldn't think of a more succinct thread title that was) So I’d been looking for this door for a long time. It alluded me for years but recently turned up- seemingly out of nowhere. I opened it and immediately realized that this was something infinitely more (or, uh, less, depending on how you look at it) than I had bargained for. The dilemma here, is that now that I’ve had a peak over the edge, as it were, I am suddenly terrified of everything. It’s as if seeking was some form of escapism for me: you know- “everything’s just a projection anyway, so don’t sweat anything”. Now that I’m sure the Truth is much too heavy a thing for me to realize, or become, or whatever way you want to put it, I find myself clinging to things: chiefly relationships and existence. Not a very desirable outcome in the least. I want to be free within the dream, not terrified to death of a nightmare. I know there’s no going back to the sleep state, and that’s not what I’m after. I just have to figure out how to function within this paradigm. I had high hopes for McKenna’s third book in that regard, but it never really expounded on “Human Adulthood” in any implimentable way (for me). I’m struggling pretty badly with this situation, I have to admit. Any insight or reading recommendations would be very greatly appreciated. Cheers, Jesse Hi Jesse, Hope your doing well. It seems like you've found yourself in quite a pickle. Enigma is quite right what he speaks, but I'm sure it's not much of a consolation for you. The fear that your feeling is quite real to you and in fact, is far from an illusion. You are at the same time, very fortunate and also very unfortunate. It's not every day that a person gets to play a very deadly game for all the marbles, thus the position you find yourself in. I am not a teacher, but I can relay an experience that happened to me, that will surely help you with the very serious battle you will sooner or later have to fight. There is no matrix-reinsertion, there is simply the prolonging of the inevitable. I have just one ask and that is to explain in detail what precipitated this "opening of the door"? TRF |
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Post by howtalk on Dec 17, 2010 1:48:17 GMT -5
Hi Jessie
I have a bit of a soft spot for the dilema you speak of- as from my own experience, every time a glimpse of something came, there was always great confusion, fear, and at times it even began to spin me into crazy territory. there was not that much bliss and love and unity from it all.
The best thing is just that the fear or confusion that might feel is a normal reaction to whatever you have glimpsed. And that the people on places such as this forum can share their own glimpses with you- thus while "alone on the journey" you are not the only one who has/is having such an expereince.
Maybe that will help you be a bit less afraid of it all
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Post by monkkey on Dec 17, 2010 2:03:21 GMT -5
Hi Jesse, Hope your doing well. It seems like you've found yourself in quite a pickle. Enigma is quite right what he speaks, but I'm sure it's not much of a consolation for you. The fear that your feeling is quite real to you and in fact, is far from an illusion. You are at the same time, very fortunate and also very unfortunate. It's not every day that a person gets to play a very deadly game for all the marbles, thus the position you find yourself in. I am not a teacher, but I can relay an experience that happened to me, that will surely help you with the very serious battle you will sooner or later have to fight. There is no matrix-reinsertion, there is simply the prolonging of the inevitable. I have just one ask and that is to explain in detail what precipitated this "opening of the door"? TRF 'jesse' is a lie that has recently been exposed. he is dying, and the quicker he lets go of the lie, the more quickly it will dissolve. it is no problem at all; it is just perceived by 'jesse the lie' as such. it is not meant to be a consolation to 'jesse the lie'. "jesse the lie' needs to see that what is looking through 'his' eyes and not dividing up the world into likable and feared thingies is what he/IT really is. IT has no cause and can not suffer. 'jesse the lie' will do anything he can to hold on...and suffer. no. identifying as 'jesse the lie' and seeking a way out within the illusion of its self-perpetuating prison, gives rise to the fear that it may not escape(because it indeed can not), which strengthens its illusion of existence. what a wonderful little drama IT is creating for Itself! what is fortunate about that? finding the door may have been fortunate, but identifying as, and believing one is something that found it is just more of the lie. this is the ignorance of mis-identification (see how time is 'formed' in the thought process). you are NOW the causeless awareness at the door reading this, but deluded thinking gives rise to the ignorance, and all the rest... jesse, as he writes here, has seen it, is aware of the idea that it is all based on this central lie giving rise to the suffering, and is now wondering why he feels the suffering and how he can escape it......see the lie taking form? is it not just amazing! suffering is happening, but there is no one experiencing it. |
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jesse
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Post by jesse on Dec 17, 2010 9:51:14 GMT -5
You guys are really laying down some heavy sh!t, here. It's going to take a while for me to assimilate some of this stuff.
In the interim I'd like to note that the existential terror seems to be pretty transient; I find myself oscillating between it and an overwhelming sense of gratitude. I have this vague but intuitive notion that it somehow relates to the idea of "surrender". Like maybe that's the solution.
When I am experiencing said gratitude, I feel so incredibly fortunate to be part of the Universe; it's life-affirming. I want to participate, love, create, and be.
To further complicate matters, at baseline, and before ever having considered existential matters, I was always very detached emotionally. A psychologist would have probably diagnosed me with borderline dissociative-disorder, if that gives you an idea. I'm not sure how that kind of thing plays into this, but I feel like it might, and have always been curious about how our neurological makeup relates to the Big Picture.
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ender
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Post by ender on Dec 17, 2010 11:37:40 GMT -5
Jesse, I'm in the exact same position and state of mind you're in. It's some seriously scary stuff, and I often doubt that I can be integrated into normal human affairs ever again. I asked for answers and I got a half-answer. I wish that I could find someone to lead me through this, or a community of seekers to live with in this transition. I understand the swing between love of everything and complete fear. Does anyone have any advice for overcoming this? [Edit: Ah, sorry, didn't realize the rule against swearing.] [Edit2: Although my post sounded pretty negative, I have to say that when I get scared of the process, I meditate on various descriptions of the force in the original trilogy of Star Wars. I find that Star Wars often has words of wisdom for seekers, at least for a foundation. Thinking about those words of wisdom is often a massive source of comfort and inspiration. Thinking about beautiful things, such as music, a good sunset, or the stars is also comfort that the universe is inherently not a bad place.] (Sorry for all the edits :  |
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Post by harrison on Dec 17, 2010 12:52:13 GMT -5
"haiku" means "playful verse."
I will try to participate in conversation in such format (for fun)
............
our coin has one side
no man can fix the dream
duality does not exists
...........
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Post by therealfake on Dec 17, 2010 13:19:52 GMT -5
Hi Monkkey, What you say is true, just as what Enigma said was true. But this is not the time to intellectualize the situation Jesse and Ender find themselves in. If that's all it took, most spiritual seekers, including myself would be there by now. There are hundreds of books, libraries and teachers that have given me the words for salvation, yet that information hasn't moved me a bit. Sometimes, I feel that the intellect can only take me 99% of the way and then I have to let it go. I think that what Jesse and Ender need, is that which takes them the rest of the way. They will have to find out for themselves, if there is something else there, something that they can conjure up that will carry them across the bridge. Or, if their time is up, for being on this beautiful planet. They both have a date that they must keep. My only suggestion at this point would be, to make sure things are right in their lives, to resolve any issues at hand and get rid of any baggage. When Jesse, relays the circumstances of "how" he reached the "invisible door" and how he opened it with his"invisible key", I will reveal a couple of experiences that happened to me, that may or not help him and ender take the final step. Of course, there are some great teachers in here that could do the same and relay their experiences on this matter, which would make my personal tales of power, redundant  PS: If my post seems a little over dramatic, it's only meant to reflect the seriousness of the situation that they both find themselves in. TRF |
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ender
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Post by ender on Dec 17, 2010 13:29:53 GMT -5
Thank you for the fantastic post, therealfake. I'd love to hear anything you have to share. I won't be on the internet for a couple of days after posting what I'm currently typing, but I just want to express my gratitude. I look forward to reading your post when I return after the weekend.
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