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Post by laughter on Dec 29, 2017 9:03:07 GMT -5
Yeah. Don't care. Describing "then what" after the fact over the internet's gonna' involve words. I don't think its a words issue. I think its a episteme/gnosis issue. There's no way to directly communicate gnosis over the interwebs. And I don't think its a "then what" question either. Go back and read what he literally wrote.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 10:18:57 GMT -5
I don't think its a words issue. I think its a episteme/gnosis issue. There's no way to directly communicate gnosis over the interwebs. And I don't think its a "then what" question either. Go back and read what he literally wrote.I thought it was a rhetorical question..
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Post by zendancer on Dec 29, 2017 14:05:19 GMT -5
There's no way to directly communicate gnosis over the interwebs. Go back and read what he literally wrote.I thought it was a rhetorical question.. It was actually a koan, and all koans require gnossis for resolution. Koans can be answered via the internet, but I wasn't requesting an answer. I was simply suggesting that people might want to stop thinking for a while, and see if entropy, or causation, or any other similar ideas, have any applicability to that which is beyond all concepts. In this case, the answer to the koan can be stated with words, whereas the answer to many koans can only be pantomimed or given with asterisks, as in *smile,* for example. FWIW, one of the realizations that occurs as a result of a CC experience is that there is no such thing as time or space. Time, space, and separation are all imaginary. Same same with order versus disorder.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2017 15:49:30 GMT -5
I'd say Buddha streamlined the whole process. I think he could-have spoken very authoritatively metaphysically, but chose not-to. He left the superfluous out-of what he taught. He cut-to-the-chase and only spoke to what was necessary for Liberation. There-is a [marvelous] structure to All-That-Is. The question is, does one have to understand the structure to become free? I'd say Buddha's answer was obviously, no. (It's incorrect to say Buddha had no interest in metaphysical questions, or did not himself understand-more-than-he said, concerning the nature of the Universe. I would say he merely did not consider it advantageous or obligatory, for Liberation, that is, for teaching The-Way-To Liberation). The most interesting "~metaphysical~" question (as well as physics question) is the nature of entropy. If I were in my 20's again, that would be a central life pursuit. So I like very much the relating that Dukkha is (increasing) entropy. Seeing that All-Is-One doesn't resolve the question of entropy. Physics tells us that the (material) Universe must have begun in its most ordered state, because, on the whole, entropy is always increasing. Without energy (as a kind-of informing-ordering- work), added, everything tends to become more disordered. That combines traditional thermodynamic (Boltzmann's statistical) entropy with Shannon's information entropy, they are directly related (the equations are even very similar). One could say the very purpose of Life, is to combat increasing entropy. That's why (a nondual) All-Is-One is not the final statement. To be-able-to-say All-Is-One, entropy has to be overcome (that is, Life has to prevail over non-Life-increasing-entropy-" winning", that would be true-apathy). {Franklin Merrell-Wolff (Pathways Through To Space and The Philosophy of Consciousness Without An Object) called for him what was a very positive state, high indifference, so words can be deceiving}. And yet, entropy is the engine that powers life. Consciousness is the totality of one movement relative to another .. the "10,000 movements", but of course, that's a gross misunderestimation of that number. In terms of the Universe as information, entropy is the outermost movement, toward disorder. Various movements alternating between order and disorder nest within it in patterns reminiscent of fractals. Planetary and satellite formation on up through the formation of galaxies, powered by gravity and nuclear fusion, are one of the most obvious examples of those patterns. As the evolution of life on Earth demonstrates, the inner movements toward order tend toward greater complexity expressed in terms of information content. None of that evolution happens without the arrow of time. Without an energy gradient, there is no process of metabolism to sustain life. So how is it that entropy is some sort of obstacle or enemy to overcome? Might as well gouge your own eyes out. Didn't the Buddha once say something like, "the world is on fire"? It's incorrect to say that entropy is the engine that powers life. Entropy is responsible for death. In a closed system entropy always increases. (Basically, in and of itself, any object can change from hot to cold, but never from cold to hot. To go from cold to hot, work must necessarily be performed. So your examples of planetary and satellite formation, and galaxies and nuclear fusion, are not examples of decreasing entropy, entropy increases in all these cases, IOW, it's a one-way street. IOoW, the movement of the energy gradient is always one-way, only life, and work [which arises from the intelligence of life] reverses the law of increasing entropy). That means one cannot get more energy out of a closed system than is put into it. (This is directly related to the idea of a perpetual motion device/machine, which doesn't exist/can't exist). We will have to look at the material universe (if anybody wants to entertain the idea that they have experiential knowledge of existing without a physical body, I'd like to hear that). So life has to overcome increasing entropy, the second law of thermodynamics. It does this by taking in energy, in the form of air/oxygen and food, and transforming the energy. So life actually decreases entropy, or negates entropy. So there are pockets where entropy decreases, but these pockets require work to be performed, which requires knowledge and intelligence, so these pockets are always associated with life, involve life. Overall, entropy always increases. So yes, entropy is the enemy of life, necessarily so, inevitably so. Basically, entropy = disease, old age and death. Now, after having said all that, yes, I consider it the case that the material universe arises from Consciousness, and therefore (the material universe) is not a closed system. But I also consider it the case that consciousness must choose to be permanently linked to Consciousness. What does this mean? It means that time is allotted for the choosing. So, basically, for life to continue, the transformation of energy is always necessary.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2017 15:54:58 GMT -5
I thought it was a rhetorical question.. It was actually a koan, and all koans require gnossis for resolution. Koans can be answered via the internet, but I wasn't requesting an answer. I was simply suggesting that people might want to stop thinking for a while, and see if entropy, or causation, or any other similar ideas, have any applicability to that which is beyond all concepts. In this case, the answer to the koan can be stated with words, whereas the answer to many koans can only be pantomimed or given with asterisks, as in *smile,* for example. FWIW, one of the realizations that occurs as a result of a CC experience is that there is no such thing as time or space. Time, space, and separation are all imaginary. Same same with order versus disorder. As long as you want to operate in a physical body, time and space are obligatory, not imaginary.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 29, 2017 16:26:03 GMT -5
It was actually a koan, and all koans require gnossis for resolution. Koans can be answered via the internet, but I wasn't requesting an answer. I was simply suggesting that people might want to stop thinking for a while, and see if entropy, or causation, or any other similar ideas, have any applicability to that which is beyond all concepts. In this case, the answer to the koan can be stated with words, whereas the answer to many koans can only be pantomimed or given with asterisks, as in *smile,* for example. FWIW, one of the realizations that occurs as a result of a CC experience is that there is no such thing as time or space. Time, space, and separation are all imaginary. Same same with order versus disorder. As long as you want to operate in a physical body, time and space are obligatory, not imaginary. SDP: Sorry, but that's not true. Time and space are as imaginary as lines of longitude and latitude. There's a famous exchange that deals with this issue. A monk asked a ZM an existential question, such as, "What is the absolute truth?" The ZM responded, 'As soon as you've drunk up all the water in the Pacific Ocean, I'll tell you." Upon hearing these words, the monk supposedly had a huge realization.
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Post by lolly on Dec 30, 2017 0:34:48 GMT -5
Yeah. Don't care. Describing "then what" after the fact over the internet's gonna' involve words. I don't think its a words issue. I think its a episteme/gnosis issue. And I don't think its a "then what" question either. It's rhetorical.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2017 2:36:50 GMT -5
I thought it was a rhetorical question.. It was actually a koan, and all koans require gnossis for resolution. Koans can be answered via the internet, but I wasn't requesting an answer. I was simply suggesting that people might want to stop thinking for a while, and see if entropy, or causation, or any other similar ideas, have any applicability to that which is beyond all concepts. In this case, the answer to the koan can be stated with words, whereas the answer to many koans can only be pantomimed or given with asterisks, as in *smile,* for example. FWIW, one of the realizations that occurs as a result of a CC experience is that there is no such thing as time or space. Time, space, and separation are all imaginary. Same same with order versus disorder. It was clear to me you were pointing toward silence. It seems to me that some folks have a natural affinity to a silent mind. My life experience was one of extremes on either end of the spectrum. Sometimes I'd naturally gravitate toward stillness, but then again, the world can be pretty interesting at times. I don't have any question left about the dichotomy of order or disorder (... "it's alive Igor!" ), but my experience was of arriving at the end of the process of questioning by suddenly becoming conscious of it as it was happening. I like to offer others that same opportunity. If there are readers that find this movement to be unsettling in some way, or indicative of some sort of existential ignorance, that's fine, it's just a different sort of opportunity.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2017 2:38:28 GMT -5
I don't think its a words issue. I think its a episteme/gnosis issue. And I don't think its a "then what" question either. It's rhetorical. Rhetoric is not nothin' but food for thought.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2017 3:36:54 GMT -5
And yet, entropy is the engine that powers life. Consciousness is the totality of one movement relative to another .. the "10,000 movements", but of course, that's a gross misunderestimation of that number. In terms of the Universe as information, entropy is the outermost movement, toward disorder. Various movements alternating between order and disorder nest within it in patterns reminiscent of fractals. Planetary and satellite formation on up through the formation of galaxies, powered by gravity and nuclear fusion, are one of the most obvious examples of those patterns. As the evolution of life on Earth demonstrates, the inner movements toward order tend toward greater complexity expressed in terms of information content. None of that evolution happens without the arrow of time. Without an energy gradient, there is no process of metabolism to sustain life. So how is it that entropy is some sort of obstacle or enemy to overcome? Might as well gouge your own eyes out. Didn't the Buddha once say something like, "the world is on fire"? It's incorrect to say that entropy is the engine that powers life. Entropy is responsible for death. In a closed system entropy always increases. (Basically, in and of itself, any object can change from hot to cold, but never from cold to hot. To go from cold to hot, work must necessarily be performed. So your examples of planetary and satellite formation, and galaxies and nuclear fusion, are not examples of decreasing entropy, entropy increases in all these cases, IOW, it's a one-way street. IOoW, the movement of the energy gradient is always one-way, only life, and work [which arises from the intelligence of life] reverses the law of increasing entropy). I didn't write that they were closed systems of decreasing entropy, I wrote that they form a series of nested relationships, with the outer movements toward disorder powering the inner movements toward order. Specifically, a proto-star (a cloud of gas and dust) is a closed system with respect to gravity, which eventually collapses a star like the Sun into a sustained fusion reaction. In this way, the tendency toward disorder of the larger system (the galaxy) leads from a state of disorder in the enclosed system (the cloud) to a relative state of order: the solar system. The entropy of the galaxy increased, while the entropy of the sub-system within the galaxy decreased from a state of a disordered cloud into a simpler, cleaner grouping of planetary sub-systems. The formation of the bodies of the solar system is a clear illustration of the fractal nature of these entropy relationships: the particles revolve around a vortex, gathering up into larger and larger groupings, so the same general process that applies to the galaxy applies to the solar system and the jovian system of moons. That means one cannot get more energy out of a closed system than is put into it. (This is directly related to the idea of a perpetual motion device/machine, which doesn't exist/can't exist). We will have to look at the material universe (if anybody wants to entertain the idea that they have experiential knowledge of existing without a physical body, I'd like to hear that). So life has to overcome increasing entropy, the second law of thermodynamics. It does this by taking in energy, in the form of air/oxygen and food, and transforming the energy. So life actually decreases entropy, or negates entropy. So there are pockets where entropy decreases, but these pockets require work to be performed, which requires knowledge and intelligence, so these pockets are always associated with life, involve life. Overall, entropy always increases. So yes, entropy is the enemy of life, necessarily so, inevitably so. Basically, entropy = disease, old age and death. Now, after having said all that, yes, I consider it the case that the material universe arises from Consciousness, and therefore (the material universe) is not a closed system. But I also consider it the case that consciousness must choose to be permanently linked to Consciousness. What does this mean? It means that time is allotted for the choosing. So, basically, for life to continue, the transformation of energy is always necessary. The Sun, then, is, in turn, a closed system with respect to the process of nuclear fusion. So once you open up your system to the combination of the Sun/Earth, you have a larger system where the slow death (the entropy) of the Sun powers the engine of the evolution of life on Earth, largely through photosynthesis. That energy cycle then powered the increasing complexity of the human genome over the life span of the Earth 'till now. You see, there's no need to fight entropy, and it's a fight you'd never possibly win anyway. Death is the engine that powers life, and if you don't believe me, ask all the chickens that have sustained me up until now when you meat them in the afterlife in between reincarnations. And while you're at it, ask them if they had a choice in the matter.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 30, 2017 8:19:49 GMT -5
It was actually a koan, and all koans require gnossis for resolution. Koans can be answered via the internet, but I wasn't requesting an answer. I was simply suggesting that people might want to stop thinking for a while, and see if entropy, or causation, or any other similar ideas, have any applicability to that which is beyond all concepts. In this case, the answer to the koan can be stated with words, whereas the answer to many koans can only be pantomimed or given with asterisks, as in *smile,* for example. FWIW, one of the realizations that occurs as a result of a CC experience is that there is no such thing as time or space. Time, space, and separation are all imaginary. Same same with order versus disorder. As long as you want to operate in a physical body, time and space are obligatory, not imaginary. When you are fully immersed in the NOW, it seems as if your past experiences never happened. When you're not fully immersed in the NOW, your past experiences seem very real though.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2017 8:35:33 GMT -5
It's incorrect to say that entropy is the engine that powers life. Entropy is responsible for death. In a closed system entropy always increases. (Basically, in and of itself, any object can change from hot to cold, but never from cold to hot. To go from cold to hot, work must necessarily be performed. So your examples of planetary and satellite formation, and galaxies and nuclear fusion, are not examples of decreasing entropy, entropy increases in all these cases, IOW, it's a one-way street. IOoW, the movement of the energy gradient is always one-way, only life, and work [which arises from the intelligence of life] reverses the law of increasing entropy). I didn't write that they were closed systems of decreasing entropy, I wrote that they form a series of nested relationships, with the outer movements toward disorder powering the inner movements toward order. Specifically, a proto-star (a cloud of gas and dust) is a closed system with respect to gravity, which eventually collapses a star like the Sun into a sustained fusion reaction. In this way, the tendency toward disorder of the larger system (the galaxy) leads from a state of disorder in the enclosed system (the cloud) to a relative state of order: the solar system. The entropy of the galaxy increased, while the entropy of the sub-system within the galaxy decreased from a state of a disordered cloud into a simpler, cleaner grouping of planetary sub-systems. The formation of the bodies of the solar system is a clear illustration of the fractal nature of these entropy relationships: the particles revolve around a vortex, gathering up into larger and larger groupings, so the same general process that applies to the galaxy applies to the solar system and the jovian system of moons. That means one cannot get more energy out of a closed system than is put into it. (This is directly related to the idea of a perpetual motion device/machine, which doesn't exist/can't exist). We will have to look at the material universe (if anybody wants to entertain the idea that they have experiential knowledge of existing without a physical body, I'd like to hear that). So life has to overcome increasing entropy, the second law of thermodynamics. It does this by taking in energy, in the form of air/oxygen and food, and transforming the energy. So life actually decreases entropy, or negates entropy. So there are pockets where entropy decreases, but these pockets require work to be performed, which requires knowledge and intelligence, so these pockets are always associated with life, involve life. Overall, entropy always increases. So yes, entropy is the enemy of life, necessarily so, inevitably so. Basically, entropy = disease, old age and death. Now, after having said all that, yes, I consider it the case that the material universe arises from Consciousness, and therefore (the material universe) is not a closed system. But I also consider it the case that consciousness must choose to be permanently linked to Consciousness. What does this mean? It means that time is allotted for the choosing. So, basically, for life to continue, the transformation of energy is always necessary. The Sun, then, is, in turn, a closed system with respect to the process of nuclear fusion. So once you open up your system to the combination of the Sun/Earth, you have a larger system where the slow death (the entropy) of the Sun powers the engine of the evolution of life on Earth, largely through photosynthesis. That energy cycle then powered the increasing complexity of the human genome over the life span of the Earth 'till now. You see, there's no need to fight entropy, and it's a fight you'd never possibly win anyway. Death is the engine that powers life, and if you don't believe me, ask all the chickens that have sustained me up until now when you meat them in the afterlife in between reincarnations. And while you're at it, ask them if they had a choice in the matter. I was just defining entropy. Most of what you wrote, correct, but you were dancing all around entropy. It takes eating those chickens to OVERCOME entropy. I would say it's a simple matter of looking up and studying entropy, but... for anybody else, a good place to start (because it shows the link between thermodynamic entropy [Boltzman] and information entropy [Shannon]) is the thought experiment (James Clerk) Maxwell's Demon.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2017 8:39:38 GMT -5
As long as you want to operate in a physical body, time and space are obligatory, not imaginary. SDP: Sorry, but that's not true. Time and space are as imaginary as lines of longitude and latitude. There's a famous exchange that deals with this issue. A monk asked a ZM an existential question, such as, "What is the absolute truth?" The ZM responded, 'As soon as you've drunk up all the water in the Pacific Ocean, I'll tell you." Upon hearing these words, the monk supposedly had a huge realization. ZD, can you build a house without time and space?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 30, 2017 9:35:44 GMT -5
SDP: Sorry, but that's not true. Time and space are as imaginary as lines of longitude and latitude. There's a famous exchange that deals with this issue. A monk asked a ZM an existential question, such as, "What is the absolute truth?" The ZM responded, 'As soon as you've drunk up all the water in the Pacific Ocean, I'll tell you." Upon hearing these words, the monk supposedly had a huge realization. ZD, can you build a house without time and space? I do everything without time and space, and so do you, whether its realized or not. We do everything NOW, and there is only NOW. Time and space are imaginary cognitive grids that are useful for many purposes in the same way that lines of longitude and latitude are useful. Time, space, and thingness are conceptual ideas, but most of us are so habituated to imagining the ideas that we can't imagine not imagining them. Becoming free of ideas, like time and space, does not mean that the ideas are never thought about or used; it just means that we understand the difference between the ideas and "what is." When some of us write about "flow," we're pointing to a way of life in which body, mind,and universe are a psychologically-unified unfoldment. Yesterday morning, for example, I helped a fellow erect four stages of scaffolding, and we began installing concrete siding on a house. It was just measure, saw, hand up, climb up, place, gun-nail, climb down, measure, saw, etc. There was no "me," "time," "space," etc. because we were one-with "what is" without reflection. You do exactly the same thing when you totally "get into" some activity, and when that happens, reflective thoughts cease, and the idea of separation ceases.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 30, 2017 9:41:18 GMT -5
It was actually a koan, and all koans require gnossis for resolution. Koans can be answered via the internet, but I wasn't requesting an answer. I was simply suggesting that people might want to stop thinking for a while, and see if entropy, or causation, or any other similar ideas, have any applicability to that which is beyond all concepts. In this case, the answer to the koan can be stated with words, whereas the answer to many koans can only be pantomimed or given with asterisks, as in *smile,* for example. FWIW, one of the realizations that occurs as a result of a CC experience is that there is no such thing as time or space. Time, space, and separation are all imaginary. Same same with order versus disorder. It was clear to me you were pointing toward silence. It seems to me that some folks have a natural affinity to a silent mind. My life experience was one of extremes on either end of the spectrum. Sometimes I'd naturally gravitate toward stillness, but then again, the world can be pretty interesting at times. I don't have any question left about the dichotomy of order or disorder (... "it's alive Igor!" ), but my experience was of arriving at the end of the process of questioning by suddenly becoming conscious of it as it was happening. I like to offer others that same opportunity. If there are readers that find this movement to be unsettling in some way, or indicative of some sort of existential ignorance, that's fine, it's just a different sort of opportunity. Yes, I was pointing to being what we are--free from imagining.
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