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Post by laughter on Feb 27, 2013 11:09:36 GMT -5
Niz: Happiness is incidental. The true and effective motive is love. You see people suffer and you seek the best way of helping them. The answer is obvious -- first put yourself beyond the need of help. Be sure your attitude is of pure goodwill, free of expectation of any kind.
Those who seek mere happiness may end up in sublime indifference, while love will never rest.
As to the method, there is only one: you must come to know yourself, both what you appear to be and what you are. Clarity and charity go together -- each needs and strengthens the other.
Q: Compassion implies the existence of an objective world, full of avoidable sorrow.
Niz: The world is not objective and the sorrow of it is not avoidable. No, love is not a second hand emotion. Not being separate from pain does not mean that it isn't felt: "sorrow is unavoidable". "Sublime indifference" is another way of re-transmitting the pain instead of simply being there with it, as it passes over and through us like the weather. Love absorbs the pain, transmutes it, dissolves it. Pain stops with love. If it wasn't for love, there would be only blessed silence.
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Post by laughter on Feb 27, 2013 14:12:51 GMT -5
Greetings.. Dear Mr. Tzu', What, exactly, did you find about what I wrote to be critical of scientists? That I referred to them as "high-priests?" ... look again, there is no criticism there, just a wry comment on perspective of the questioner in the quoted segment. Are you prepared to word-lawyer this fine distinction between "relative" and "subjective". ;D The fact is that two people moving relative to one another will measure a ruler differently. The primary measure of space, length, is subjective. Even mind can see this. If you are going to think Tzu', think it all the way through, don't stop in the 19th century. And you here you didn't touch the idea of the subjectivity of matter with a 10 foot pole (lmao). "Actual" and "existant" are not incompatible with "subjective" ... you seemed to have your warrior's reaction to my pronouncing the death of "objectivity" ... interesting. -- with gratitude for the laugh You weren't paying attention, Laughter.. you're finding your expectations and attachments.. Be well.. Dear Mr. Tzu', Well, with all due respect, that's not how the conversation began. The conversation began with your giraffe of my phantom "criticisms" of scientists. In all sincerity though, do you see the profound irony in you playing the "attachment" card in the context of Nisargadatta's words, regardless of the presence or giraffiness of such alleged attachments? -- with warm regards.
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Post by enigma on Feb 27, 2013 15:04:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. You weren't paying attention, Laughter.. you're finding your expectations and attachments.. Be well.. Dear Mr. Tzu', Well, with all due respect, that's not how the conversation began. The conversation began with your giraffe of my phantom "criticisms" of scientists. "you're finding your expectations and attachments" is about as classic as projections get, and there's a level at which the projector knows the content of his projections, so we could say he already knows his giraffe is a giraffe. The difficulty is in teasing that 'knowing' to the surface such that he loses interest in chasing it around the back yard. ;D
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 27, 2013 18:18:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. Dear Mr. Tzu', Well, with all due respect, that's not how the conversation began. The conversation began with your giraffe of my phantom "criticisms" of scientists. "you're finding your expectations and attachments" is about as classic as projections get, and there's a level at which the projector knows the content of his projections, so we could say he already knows his giraffe is a giraffe. The difficulty is in teasing that 'knowing' to the surface such that he loses interest in chasing it around the back yard. ;D I don't know how to appeal to your sense of fairness, openness, honesty, when there is no evidence of the same.. I'm asking, you're evading, mocking, etc.. but, the actuality is that you refuse to have those discussions, you resort to evasive tactics and mockery, and bringing your pet Giraffes in as distractions from your evasions.. no projections, Phil, the actuality is that you won't have discussions that are not exclusively on your terms, where only your beliefs are acceptable.. So, spin your tales about Giraffes and back yards, but.. you know you are too insecure about your beliefs to expose them to open honest respectful discussions, that is self-evident to anyone not prejudiced in your favor.. you want to mock and intimidate, rather than explore what is actually happening.. pages and pages, offers and offers, evasion and evasion.. now, it's just insincere deception, except it's you deceiving yourself.. it's kinda sad.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Feb 27, 2013 20:35:37 GMT -5
Greetings.. "you're finding your expectations and attachments" is about as classic as projections get, and there's a level at which the projector knows the content of his projections, so we could say he already knows his giraffe is a giraffe. The difficulty is in teasing that 'knowing' to the surface such that he loses interest in chasing it around the back yard. ;D I don't know how to appeal to your sense of fairness, openness, honesty, when there is no evidence of the same.. I'm asking, you're evading, mocking, etc.. but, the actuality is that you refuse to have those discussions, you resort to evasive tactics and mockery, and bringing your pet Giraffes in as distractions from your evasions.. no projections, Phil, the actuality is that you won't have discussions that are not exclusively on your terms, where only your beliefs are acceptable..So, spin your tales about Giraffes and back yards, but.. you know you are too insecure about your beliefs to expose them to open honest respectful discussions, that is self-evident to anyone not prejudiced in your favor.. you want to mock and intimidate, rather than explore what is actually happening.. pages and pages, offers and offers, evasion and evasion.. now, it's just insincere deception, except it's you deceiving yourself.. it's kinda sad.. Be well.. I wonder what you think of those long and frequent discussions between Andrew and I, in which Andrew has little concern for what might be called "my terms", and even less respect for what might be called "my beliefs". It's very rare that he and I actually agree, and yet discussion happens, and more often than not there's no real harshness spoken between us. The reason for that, in case there's any interest, is that he's actually trying to listen and understand, and he's not interested in drawing blood with his saber with every post. So maybe you're just sad over your latest giraffe and it really has nothing to do with me?
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Post by laughter on Feb 27, 2013 20:52:03 GMT -5
Niz: Compassion is but another word for the refusal to suffer for imaginary reasons.
Q: If the reasons are imaginary, why should the suffering be inevitable?
Niz: It is always the false that makes you suffer, the false desires and fears, the false values and ideas, the false relationships between people. Abandon the false and you are free of pain; truth makes happy, truth liberates. I want to make this clear for anyone reading it: I am referring here to my own mind, my own perspective, not anyone else. The mind hears the word "false" in what Niz says there and makes a complete, utter and foolish mess of it. This is not a scientists "false" and it certainly isn't a lawyer's "false". I'll say nothing about truth.
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Post by enigma on Feb 27, 2013 21:40:13 GMT -5
Niz: Compassion is but another word for the refusal to suffer for imaginary reasons.
Q: If the reasons are imaginary, why should the suffering be inevitable?
Niz: It is always the false that makes you suffer, the false desires and fears, the false values and ideas, the false relationships between people. Abandon the false and you are free of pain; truth makes happy, truth liberates. I want to make this clear for anyone reading it: I am referring here to my own mind, my own perspective, not anyone else. The mind hears the word "false" in what Niz says there and makes a complete, utter and foolish mess of it. This is not a scientists "false" and it certainly isn't a lawyer's "false". I'll say nothing about truth. At the risk of much more of a mess, we might say it is the heart's false. Not to be confused with the sentimental heart of man, this is the heart of Being. Being knows false because it lacks the scent of home. It lacks the vibrancy of Life.
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 27, 2013 21:46:36 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I don't know how to appeal to your sense of fairness, openness, honesty, when there is no evidence of the same.. I'm asking, you're evading, mocking, etc.. but, the actuality is that you refuse to have those discussions, you resort to evasive tactics and mockery, and bringing your pet Giraffes in as distractions from your evasions.. no projections, Phil, the actuality is that you won't have discussions that are not exclusively on your terms, where only your beliefs are acceptable..So, spin your tales about Giraffes and back yards, but.. you know you are too insecure about your beliefs to expose them to open honest respectful discussions, that is self-evident to anyone not prejudiced in your favor.. you want to mock and intimidate, rather than explore what is actually happening.. pages and pages, offers and offers, evasion and evasion.. now, it's just insincere deception, except it's you deceiving yourself.. it's kinda sad.. Be well.. I wonder what you think of those long and frequent discussions between Andrew and I, in which Andrew has little concern for what might be called "my terms", and even less respect for what might be called "my beliefs". It's very rare that he and I actually agree, and yet discussion happens, and more often than not there's no real harshness spoken between us. The reason for that, in case there's any interest, is that he's actually trying to listen and understand, and he's not interested in drawing blood with his saber with every post. So maybe you're just sad over your latest giraffe and it really has nothing to do with me? I sense that both of you are more interested in the talking and your beliefs than real solutions.. as long as the other is willing to keep talking you have the opportunity to market your beliefs.. You and Andrew tolerate each other because of the similarities in your beliefs, and you each believe you can prevail over the other and create the illusion being 'right'.. you two seem to have a gentlemen's agreement that reality need not influence the discussions you have, and that language can yield to imaginary meanings, and.. there is more harshness than you care to admit, sarcasm and ridicule and mockery are harshness.. i am more than willing to have such discussions, but not on 'your' terms, or mine.. using the common meanings of words, as the common person would normally understand meanings, i ask that we both yield to the normal understandings of language, so that the common person can understand the discussion.. you and Andrew sound like a couple of stoners trying to out-do each other after your first college Philosophy class.. I am always trying to "listen and understand", but when i ask questions or add perspectives you don't like, you bring your pets out to mock and ridicule, rather than stay engaged and find real solutions.. we've recently had several beginnings of what seemed to be decent discussions, and you have ended them with mockery or denial, or simply evading continuing.. Get sincerely involved, E.. you haven't done that, yet.. you just make excuses about why you choose to avoid having direct, open, honest, and respectful discussions with me.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Feb 27, 2013 22:31:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. I wonder what you think of those long and frequent discussions between Andrew and I, in which Andrew has little concern for what might be called "my terms", and even less respect for what might be called "my beliefs". It's very rare that he and I actually agree, and yet discussion happens, and more often than not there's no real harshness spoken between us. The reason for that, in case there's any interest, is that he's actually trying to listen and understand, and he's not interested in drawing blood with his saber with every post. So maybe you're just sad over your latest giraffe and it really has nothing to do with me? I sense that both of you are more interested in the talking and your beliefs than real solutions.. as long as the other is willing to keep talking you have the opportunity to market your beliefs.. You and Andrew tolerate each other because of the similarities in your beliefs, and you each believe you can prevail over the other and create the illusion being 'right'.. you two seem to have a gentlemen's agreement that reality need not influence the discussions you have, and that language can yield to imaginary meanings, and.. there is more harshness than you care to admit, sarcasm and ridicule and mockery are harshness.. i am more than willing to have such discussions, but not on 'your' terms, or mine.. using the common meanings of words, as the common person would normally understand meanings, i ask that we both yield to the normal understandings of language, so that the common person can understand the discussion.. you and Andrew sound like a couple of stoners trying to out-do each other after your first college Philosophy class.. I am always trying to "listen and understand", but when i ask questions or add perspectives you don't like, you bring your pets out to mock and ridicule, rather than stay engaged and find real solutions.. we've recently had several beginnings of what seemed to be decent discussions, and you have ended them with mockery or denial, or simply evading continuing.. Get sincerely involved, E.. you haven't done that, yet.. you just make excuses about why you choose to avoid having direct, open, honest, and respectful discussions with me.. Be well.. Really, it's because you're just blind with belligerence when you're not agreed with. Your anger and judgment make it impossible for you to hear what's being said, and so communication fails completely. Sorry, that's what happens.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 22:58:55 GMT -5
I want to make this clear for anyone reading it: I am referring here to my own mind, my own perspective, not anyone else. The mind hears the word "false" in what Niz says there and makes a complete, utter and foolish mess of it. This is not a scientists "false" and it certainly isn't a lawyer's "false". I'll say nothing about truth. At the risk of much more of a mess, we might say it is the heart's false. Not to be confused with the sentimental heart of man, this is the heart of Being. Being knows false because it lacks the scent of home. It lacks the vibrancy of Life. I wouldn't say that Being lacks the scent of home or the vibrancy of Life. It can't see itself so the vibrancy of Life becomes it's reflection.
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Post by Reefs on Feb 27, 2013 23:01:15 GMT -5
Greetings.. You weren't paying attention, Laughter.. you're finding your expectations and attachments.. Be well.. Dear Mr. Tzu', Well, with all due respect, that's not how the conversation began. The conversation began with your giraffe of my phantom "criticisms" of scientists. In all sincerity though, do you see the profound irony in you playing the "attachment" card in the context of Nisargadatta's words, regardless of the presence or giraffiness of such alleged attachments? -- with warm regards. Did Tzu Roshi already reveal his definition of the word 'attachment'?
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 27, 2013 23:01:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I sense that both of you are more interested in the talking and your beliefs than real solutions.. as long as the other is willing to keep talking you have the opportunity to market your beliefs.. You and Andrew tolerate each other because of the similarities in your beliefs, and you each believe you can prevail over the other and create the illusion being 'right'.. you two seem to have a gentlemen's agreement that reality need not influence the discussions you have, and that language can yield to imaginary meanings, and.. there is more harshness than you care to admit, sarcasm and ridicule and mockery are harshness.. i am more than willing to have such discussions, but not on 'your' terms, or mine.. using the common meanings of words, as the common person would normally understand meanings, i ask that we both yield to the normal understandings of language, so that the common person can understand the discussion.. you and Andrew sound like a couple of stoners trying to out-do each other after your first college Philosophy class.. I am always trying to "listen and understand", but when i ask questions or add perspectives you don't like, you bring your pets out to mock and ridicule, rather than stay engaged and find real solutions.. we've recently had several beginnings of what seemed to be decent discussions, and you have ended them with mockery or denial, or simply evading continuing.. Get sincerely involved, E.. you haven't done that, yet.. you just make excuses about why you choose to avoid having direct, open, honest, and respectful discussions with me.. Be well.. Really, it's because you're just blind with belligerence when you're not agreed with. Your anger and judgment make it impossible for you to hear what's being said, and so communication fails completely. Sorry, that's what happens. Whatever, you are too attached to your beliefs to see clearly.. my mistake was having faith in your potential, when you have none.. carry on with your illusions, your self-inflated self-image demands no less than absolute denial of your attachments to your beliefs.. You have no intention of having an direct, open, honest, respectful discussion.. i hear what is being said, but this is your deflection when people have the same experiences you do, but arrive at different conclusions.. you can't deal with it or discuss it reasonably.. Sorry, that's just the way it is.. Be well..
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Post by Reefs on Feb 27, 2013 23:08:15 GMT -5
Greetings.. I sense that both of you are more interested in the talking and your beliefs than real solutions.. as long as the other is willing to keep talking you have the opportunity to market your beliefs.. You and Andrew tolerate each other because of the similarities in your beliefs, and you each believe you can prevail over the other and create the illusion being 'right'.. you two seem to have a gentlemen's agreement that reality need not influence the discussions you have, and that language can yield to imaginary meanings, and.. there is more harshness than you care to admit, sarcasm and ridicule and mockery are harshness.. i am more than willing to have such discussions, but not on 'your' terms, or mine.. using the common meanings of words, as the common person would normally understand meanings, i ask that we both yield to the normal understandings of language, so that the common person can understand the discussion.. you and Andrew sound like a couple of stoners trying to out-do each other after your first college Philosophy class.. I am always trying to "listen and understand", but when i ask questions or add perspectives you don't like, you bring your pets out to mock and ridicule, rather than stay engaged and find real solutions.. we've recently had several beginnings of what seemed to be decent discussions, and you have ended them with mockery or denial, or simply evading continuing.. Get sincerely involved, E.. you haven't done that, yet.. you just make excuses about why you choose to avoid having direct, open, honest, and respectful discussions with me.. Be well.. Really, it's because you're just blind with belligerence when you're not agreed with. Your anger and judgment make it impossible for you to hear what's being said, and so communication fails completely. Sorry, that's what happens. Enigma, you're being played in Ruthless Truth fashion, double (Silver, Tzu) and triple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha) and quintuple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha, Andrew, Figgy) and octuple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha, Andrew, Figgy, Heterodox, OMG, Mountain-Goatee) teaming on you and running tired old 'Psy Ops' (Psychological Operations) scams intended to break you down, so you can be conditioned to fit the illusion that is desired by the scammers.. you are being assaulted, spiritually.. much respect for hangin' in there..
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Post by silver on Feb 27, 2013 23:16:30 GMT -5
Really, it's because you're just blind with belligerence when you're not agreed with. Your anger and judgment make it impossible for you to hear what's being said, and so communication fails completely. Sorry, that's what happens. Enigma, you're being played in Ruthless Truth fashion, double (Silver, Tzu) and triple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha) and quintuple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha, Andrew, Figgy) and octuple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha, Andrew, Figgy, Heterodox, OMG, Mountain-Goatee) teaming on you and running tired old 'Psy Ops' (Psychological Operations) scams intended to break you down, so you can be conditioned to fit the illusion that is desired by the scammers.. you are being assaulted, spiritually.. much respect for hangin' in there.. Hey, B! It's my turn. How'm I doin'? If your rolly eyes see another pair of rolly eyes and they're green, that'd be me! If not the 5 South, the GG22.......
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Post by Beingist on Feb 27, 2013 23:21:46 GMT -5
Enigma, you're being played in Ruthless Truth fashion, double (Silver, Tzu) and triple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha) and quintuple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha, Andrew, Figgy) and octuple (Silver, Tzu, Arisha, Andrew, Figgy, Heterodox, OMG, Mountain-Goatee) teaming on you and running tired old 'Psy Ops' (Psychological Operations) scams intended to break you down, so you can be conditioned to fit the illusion that is desired by the scammers.. you are being assaulted, spiritually.. much respect for hangin' in there.. Hey, B! It's my turn. How'm I doin'? If your rolly eyes see another pair of rolly eyes and they're green, that'd be me! If not the 5 South, the GG22....... Yup, I'm right around those two. I'll keep one of my rolly eyes on the lookout for one o' yer green rolly eyes, then.
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