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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 16:36:19 GMT -5
Well, as far as the Niz quote is concerned, I didn't write that the problems weren't mind-made, just that not all of them are entirely subjective.  If all 'problems' are mind-made, how could the identification of any circumstance as a 'problem' be anything other than 'subjective'? Again, you don't seem to understand what objective vs. subjective means. How are you defining those terms in this conversation? That was not the point I was trying to make. Rather, it was that Problems do not exist in their own right. They are identified through observation of circumstances, through a lens of personal/subjective judgement. My point was; The absence of an immediate water source need not be identified as 'a problem.' When thirst arises, that also need not be identified as a problem. Rather, when thirst arises, one just turns to the most immediate source to get a drink of water. I'm not trying to offer up ready solutions to 'problems.' I am trying to demonstrate to you that the problems you say exist in their own right, as objective problems, need not necessarily even be identified as such. That's just it; Problems must first be identified as such. The mere existence of a crumpled house, does not necessarily = the existence of a problem. “The main cause of a troubling or problematic situation is never the situation itself, but thought about it." "Be aware of the thoughts you are thinking. Separate them from the situation, which is always neutral. It is as it is.” "The only real “problem” is dysfunctional thinking – the rest are challenges, not problems." "Realize deeply that the present moment is all you have." "All problems are illusions of the mind." Eckhart Tolle |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 16:02:51 GMT -5
Exactly!....(as he ducks behind a tree to take a pee and take in the grassy expanse to his left that will make a soft bed for later...)  Yup, and while having a whiz, he's gonna start worrying about not worrying...  Well yeah...he better....'cause without identifying those circumstances as a problem, the house will never get fixed. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 15:45:31 GMT -5
The problems are that now there's no access to a kitchen sink in response to thirst, no access to a bathroom for sanitation, within 16 hours the place that used to be for resting is unavailable, and in the morning there's no change of clothing. The thirst and the sanitation problems are immediate. While it's true that the other two are time-bound, any scenario involving thoughts about experience, and how that experience can be impacted by an absence, are premised on the time-bound nature of experience itself. None of these four problems are mitigated by an absence of secondary psychological suffering thoughts about them. 
Exactly!....(as he ducks behind a tree to take a pee and take in the grassy expanse to his left that will make a soft bed for later...) |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 15:44:01 GMT -5
The problems are that now there's no access to a kitchen sink in response to thirst, Seriously? I don't think you actually understand what 'objective vs. subjective' means. If you are asserting that 'problem' to be an objective one, that assumes that there are absolutely no other water sources around for when one gets thirsty. So long as one can find 'some way' to get water when he's thirty, the problem you cite above, is subjective in nature. Same as above. Surely, there is some place one could find to go relieve himself...? Sure, most folks would prefer to have their own household bathroom intact and available, but the fact that it's presently not, does not necessarily mean that a problem exists. Find somewhere to lie down to address the sleep issue. Not having a change of clothing is not an 'objective' problem. Some people will care, others won't. It's all about what is valued. Both are mind made, so long as one is not forced to go thirsty and/or hold in their pee. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 15:12:55 GMT -5
Fact is though, that the sudden unplanned absence of a house is an objective problem with direct and immediate physical consequences that have nothing to do with those thoughts or the absence of those thoughts. Beyond a possible and immediate threat of physically freezing to death, all other 'problems' surrounding the unplanned absence of a house would be subjective in nature, and thus, thought driven. For that matter, even the problem of 'freezing to death' is a thought driven one, based upon a natural inclination, existent intrinsic value held, to survive. It is values that result in a sense of 'distress' or vexation over something presently deemed to be amiss. And values are subject to the specific, unique beholder of circumstances. I'm kinda surprised actually that you're even arguing this. It's actually a really important thing to see that much of what you deem to be an 'objective problem' is actually not so....and is only deemed to be something that needs solving due to some very specific value judgements made about the circumstances at hand. Problems are 'thought' into being. They do not exist independently, in and of themselves. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 12:18:25 GMT -5
Are you enjoying the absence of an earthquake today? Calm weather: gentle breeze, sun shining on my 'bare' shoulders, birds chirping, sweet smell in the air. yes. Judgements go hand in hand with opinions and are entirely subjective, by nature. An 'objective challenge'....that applies to 'most' people? You are using the term 'objective' in a really strange way there. Despite generalities in terms of expected response, There are unending possibilities in terms of viewpoint, with regards to any particular circumstance. But, Although not completely removed, for the most part, I see Physical problems/pain in a different category than what I'm addressing when I use the term 'thought driven.' for example, there's a difference between the perceived problem arising of excruciating pain of a frost bitten hand, vs. a problem arising of finding out your wife has been slowly packing her stuff, planning her escape. The pain of Finding out your wife will soon be leaving, is very much 'mentally driven.' And depending upon how deeply the ideas about 'an ensuing problem' are identified with, the emotional pain could run the gamut between being slightly upset, all the way down to deep despair. Sure, enjoying the pleasant weather of a nice day is only human after all, like I wrote just the other day, remember? But pleasure is just the flip side of the coin to problems. Once you start talking about experience in time bound material terms, this polarity applies, and all of these thoughts about experience as conceived in this way have facets that are both subjective and objective. Physicality is one point of reference for objective metrics, yes, but not the only one. The scenario of someone facing sudden frostbite on the side of a mountain is just a more extreme and immediate version of someone standing in front of a pile of rubble that used to be their house. The problems in each case are due to exposure to the natural elements, and can't be solved by thoughts or an absence of thoughts about the situation other than those that would lead to or otherwise facilitate action. All depends where the house is. And under the umbrella of 'the problems,' fall all sorts of thought based issues that might crop up, some of which that have very little to do with an actual threat of possible physical harm. You've slowly morphed the argument from my original points. That's ok though....tells me you saw the folly of your words early on. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 12:07:20 GMT -5
Social support seems to prolong it as well. Laffigmareefer has already had the meltdown. We are now into the "clawing back some semblance of credibility" phase with extra buddy support. Nailed it. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 12:01:53 GMT -5
Translation: You are thinking about these subjects all the time. Another indicator for too much time spent here is when folks suddenly go invisible. Another indicator one is too involved here is when they start paying attention to stuff like who is on forum when, and for how long, and who is visible or invisible. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 12:00:16 GMT -5
Arguing with Reefs is equivalent to dog chasing it's own tail. It never comes to an end. Are you talking to your figments again and assuming they are all perceivers? Gopal always admitted that he went along with the assumption that others are perceivers. That was never in question. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 23, 2017 11:57:22 GMT -5
Bit everyone already knew Reefs didn't mean wait because that would entirely uncharacteristic of Reefs. This means, rather than assuming that 'wait' was his meaning, one would be really surprised if indeed he meant that. We can infer, therefore, that the motivation for misrepresenting Reefs statement is something other than an interest in understanding what he actually meant. The likelihood that my interpretation far more accurately represents Reef's meaning than the 'wait interpretation' is converging on 100%. Just do the statistics. Waiting doesn't even make the slightest sense. You may have better luck winning the lottery. So why mention that all that's required is a little bit of grace?....isn't That pretty much like telling a poor man, 'you just need a lottery win'? |
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Post by figgles on Mar 22, 2017 10:50:00 GMT -5
8 days isn't so bad. Are you a pretender as well, like reefs and enigma who think you have to line up all your ducks in a row to find the truth. The path is littered with contradictions and paradoxes. They concern you. They don't concern me. You attach yourself to them without looking at what they're pointing to which is beyond contradiction. It is just to be here now. Drop your concepts and shoot your ducks. Can you do that? Yup. so simple.  |
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Post by figgles on Mar 22, 2017 10:45:40 GMT -5
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether "calm weather" describes an absence or a presence. To say there is no storm, however, is just to state a fact, while to say the weather is calm is the type of thought about experience that's always optional. Are you enjoying the absence of an earthquake today? Calm weather: gentle breeze, sun shining on my 'bare' shoulders, birds chirping, sweet smell in the air. yes. Judgements go hand in hand with opinions and are entirely subjective, by nature. An 'objective challenge'....that applies to 'most' people? You are using the term 'objective' in a really strange way there. Despite generalities in terms of expected response, There are unending possibilities in terms of viewpoint, with regards to any particular circumstance. But, Although not completely removed, for the most part, I see Physical problems/pain in a different category than what I'm addressing when I use the term 'thought driven.' for example, there's a difference between the perceived problem arising of excruciating pain of a frost bitten hand, vs. a problem arising of finding out your wife has been slowly packing her stuff, planning her escape. The pain of Finding out your wife will soon be leaving, is very much 'mentally driven.' And depending upon how deeply the ideas about 'an ensuing problem' are identified with, the emotional pain could run the gamut between being slightly upset, all the way down to deep despair. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 21, 2017 11:09:31 GMT -5
Okay....All it takes is a little grace. See, all it takes is to actually read what has been written. Interesting you say that, but failed to respond to the other half of my post..? Did you read that? |
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Post by figgles on Mar 20, 2017 15:35:03 GMT -5
But to insist that it's only thoughts about poverty driven homelessness that are a material problem is a great example of what Reefs was calling happy face stickering. All problems are thought driven. One man's 'poverty driven homelessness' is another's, 'unencumbered, freedom.' What's makes the difference? The thoughts, opinions and judgements each makes about their circumstances. And no, that's not the 'happy face stickering' Reefs was talking about. Happy face stickering involves denial of actual thoughts and feelings, to quite literally, 'pretend' to feel differently than what you actually feel. Judgements are always subjective. As are thoughts 'about' circumstance. It's the presence of calm weather. Yes. Of course. All problems are perceived to be problems depending upon what is valued and what is not...what is judged to be good vs. bad, what is liked and not liked. How could it be any other way? Indeed, most of us value having a warm roof over our heads. Thus, our house ripped apart would be deemed a 'bad' thing. That said, there are instances where one might be happy his home was ripped apart.....say, a dude with insurance that covers storms, who's been trying to sell that albatross of a house for years, and is suddenly now free of it, and with money in his pocket. All arising problems hinge upon judgement. |
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Post by figgles on Mar 20, 2017 11:16:35 GMT -5
Parting can be such sweet sorrow. .. the resistance to this idea strikes me as a 3 out of 5 on Spock's eyebrow scale. Apparently, the conclusion that needs to be arrived at come hell or high water is that experience is only influenced by a presence, hencely Peace is a presence. If we're talking 'experience,' we are talking 'presence.' A true absence, means nothing to talk about....nothing to experience. |
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