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Post by peanut on Jul 27, 2010 18:03:24 GMT -5
Hi All...thank you so much for all the input. Things i hadn't even thought of... i will have lots of opportunities to try out your suggestions because my husband and i are cleaning bath houses in a campground for 2 months in exchange for our site so lots of cleaning going on.
Yes ZD you understood me correctly. Just noticed the last time i cleaned that there wasn't any looking and listening going on. And it struck me...hmmnnn this is interesting so thought i would put it out there. It feels like asking what must i be doing this moment seems to be the first approach to try. Notice what is happening, just like when i am walking in the woods ;-)
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lobo
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Post by lobo on Jul 28, 2010 8:43:02 GMT -5
peanut, to your original question, it is dependent upon your attitude and beliefs about these activities. These are relative and can be changed, but they will still be what they are, just reactions based on some belief that is held.
Maybe just watch the whole thing happen and see it for what it is?
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Post by peanut on Jul 28, 2010 9:05:45 GMT -5
burt..
Its interesting about perceptions...they can be changed. By looking at it i found that it is not even about the act of cleaning. I was reacting to the belief that fellow campers should leave a shower ,for example, how they found it. So there it is.. when should come up, trouble is sure to follow lol
So it seems 2 things were going on. Today i will ask what i must do in this moment to help me stay in the listening, seeing practice. Seeing through the belief dissolved it.
thanks
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Post by joker80420 on Jul 28, 2010 13:31:55 GMT -5
just be happy you have a place to clean......we should find joy in all things we do....and if you dont......do something els.....
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Post by peanut on Jul 29, 2010 9:01:44 GMT -5
Cleaning yesterday was a whole new experience. Hearing the water, watching the dirt be swept up. All i can say is, yes, cleaning and walking in the woods are two different activities but can practice non-conceptual awareness no matter the locale.
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Post by ravenscroft on Jul 29, 2010 10:16:46 GMT -5
Cleaning yesterday was a whole new experience. Hearing the water, watching the dirt be swept up. All i can say is, yes, cleaning and walking in the woods are two different activities but can practice non-conceptual awareness no matter the locale. just curious (this is an open question to everyone) but what is the value of non-conceptual awareness on the path to spiritual enlightenment anyway? Is it of use? I know buddhists have been using it for a few thousand years and I gotta say, I am not seeing it produce many buddhas. Happier and more pleasant dream states? maybe that's all? I am not starting trouble, I am actually undecided on some of this these things.  |
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Post by joker80420 on Jul 29, 2010 10:44:22 GMT -5
i believe......... its a way to free the spirit of negative feelings and produce positive energy to the task at hand..........to know all things we do have a purpose and that it is not trivial but a learning experience to grow wiser...........
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Post by zendancer on Jul 29, 2010 11:42:47 GMT -5
Cleaning yesterday was a whole new experience. Hearing the water, watching the dirt be swept up. All i can say is, yes, cleaning and walking in the woods are two different activities but can practice non-conceptual awareness no matter the locale. just curious (this is an open question to everyone) but what is the value of non-conceptual awareness on the path to spiritual enlightenment anyway? Is it of use? I know buddhists have been using it for a few thousand years and I gotta say, I am not seeing it produce many buddhas. Happier and more pleasant dream states? maybe that's all? I am not starting trouble, I am actually undecided on some of this these things. Jim: I, too, know lots of Buddhists who seem burdened (sometimes by the weight of Buddhism, LOL) despite their meditation practice. What I don't know is whether they relegate their practice only to their time on the mat, or whether they extend it into everyday life. I suspect that many people have a compartmentalized view of this and do not recognize the value of sustained non-conceptuality. The only way to perceive the real world is to leave the mind behind. If we shift our attention to what we can see or hear, all problems disappear along with all judgments and ideas about how the world should be. If attention shifts to what is real, we quit reinforcing the illusion of separateness and joy naturally arises. Is this of value in a practical context? It certainly seems that way to me. Here's a real world example. Two days ago someone got extremely angry at me (and the world in general) for what he thought were good reasons. From my perspective his reasons seemed ludicrous. My actual thought was, "Hmm, I can see that he has a big problem caused by his thinking, but he can't quit thinking, and it certainly isn't my problem." I then thought about Byron Katie's wonderful phrase, "it's his turn to suffer; not mine." Attention shifted from thoughts about that matter to the fantastic cloud formations overhead and the next task at hand. I continued being a happy camper and dealing with whatever life presented. The fellow with the problem apparently continued stewing in his juices however long he needed to do that. His problem arose because reality did not conform to his ideas about how reality ought to be. Because I have no ideas about how reality ought to be, I enjoy it as it is. If something "bad" happens to me, then it will be my time to suffer. LOL Remember, as Leonard Jacobsen has said, "there is God's world and the mind's world. Only one of them is real." If we are conceptually aware, we are in mind's world. If we are non-conceptually aware, we are in God's world. Real or unreal? What is your preference? If I had to choose between enlightenment and non-conceptuality, I would choose the latter because it isn't a one-time gift; it keeps on giving every day! Check out those cloud formations. |
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Post by joker80420 on Jul 29, 2010 12:07:11 GMT -5
beautifully said zendancer...........
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Post by joker80420 on Jul 29, 2010 12:40:24 GMT -5
(to all spirits).....i believe we should discus matters with the spirit not the human side of things......tends to open the truth about ourselfs and others alike..............i was at the bar last nite with three beautiful women and another man..(very drunk)....... couldnt grasp the fact that i could plz all thes women and started a fight with me.......he literally slapped me in the face....so by human response i started punching back.....he couldnt get to me and lunged at me...so i headlocked him and took him to the ground......i could have hurt this man really bad and did not..........i held him till i felt that the ppl around me had a good hold of him and i let him go........stud up and walked away with no animosity towards him.......and still have none.......but he kept trying to get at me............. and hit my girl slash friend in the head three times while i was being walked away.....my other girl slash friend has a gash in her foot from stepping on broken glass.....and i thank him for the experience......because i found peace within my self when there was ciaos all around me.........it showed me my true self and i love him for that..........weird?  ?........you tell me..........i try to find the good in all situations |
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Post by ravenscroft on Jul 29, 2010 12:41:44 GMT -5
just curious (this is an open question to everyone) but what is the value of non-conceptual awareness on the path to spiritual enlightenment anyway? Is it of use? I know buddhists have been using it for a few thousand years and I gotta say, I am not seeing it produce many buddhas. Happier and more pleasant dream states? maybe that's all? I am not starting trouble, I am actually undecided on some of this these things. If we are non-conceptually aware, we are in God's world. Real or unreal? What is your preference? If I had to choose between enlightenment and non-conceptuality, I would choose the latter because it isn't a one-time gift; it keeps on giving every day! Check out those cloud formations. great post and for the most part I agree but is non-conceptual awareness a destination or a tool? what you explain above sounds more like the final destination of integrated functioning example: I ask you how to get to Philadelphia telling people to practice the desired state is like telling me the best way to get to Philadelphia is sit in my house and eat cheese-steaks and watch eagles games the train I need to take to Philly has nothing to do with the destination. The train is not Philly-like in any way. But that train has an outstanding track record of delivering people to that permanent state (Philadelphia) I think what I call into question sometimes is the proven track record of all those observational non-cenceptutial practices. I am just not sold that type of approach has having a very good rate of delivery. |
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enda
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Post by enda on Jul 29, 2010 13:24:16 GMT -5
There would not be much point asking how to get to Philadelphia. The answers you would get would probably range from "Who's asking?", "You are Philadelphia", "Why would you want to go?" These answers would be punctuated with many of those very irritating LOL inserts. In my schooldays this was an abbreviation of "lots of love", but I am presuming on this site it means something like "laugh out loud". Thats probably just my experience of answers given on this board to straightforward questions
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Post by klaus on Jul 29, 2010 15:40:51 GMT -5
zendancer,
In your real world example would not there have been no one to get angry and no one to get angry at?
Wouldn't there have just been anger with no subject nor object of this anger?
You viewed this situation from a non-conceptual point of view, but a conceptual point of view, could have been just as valid.
This guy is angry, so what. I'm going to ignore his anger because I don't care what he thinks about the situation or me, so I'm going to shift my attention to the cloud formations and the next task at hand.
Viewed fron a non-conceptual or conceptual point of view would have resulted in moving on from the situation leaving both of you in your respective states of anger and detatchment.
ravenscroft,
I'm not sure if non-conceptual awareness has any value other than being detached from one point of view and attached to another, that of non-conceptual awareness.
Just my opinion.
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alpha
New Member
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Post by alpha on Jul 29, 2010 17:43:27 GMT -5
Ravenscroft wrote just curious (this is an open question to everyone) but what is the value of non-conceptual awareness on the path to spiritual enlightenment anyway? Is it of use? I know buddhists have been using it for a few thousand years and I gotta say, I am not seeing it produce many buddhas. Happier and more pleasant dream states? maybe that's all? I am not starting trouble, I am actually undecided on some of this these things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I would say its the same value as learning art/music/yoga,etc.etc., where about one percent will reach a very high level and ninety nine percent will be average, its probably worth all the teaching to produce that one percent... From the world population, I feel there are about the same number of enlightened people as there are great artists/painters/mountaineers,etc. etc. The magic ingredient necessary to be this one percent, is unknown to me, of course I am talking from the fantasy world, into which I was born, live and will die, the same as the other ninty nine percent, thats not to say I can't have fun, imagining that I'm close to enlightenment and riding high on the insights that presents, As Johnny Cash says in his last song "you can have it all, my empire of dirt". |
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Post by question on Jul 29, 2010 19:14:50 GMT -5
I think what I call into question sometimes is the proven track record of all those observational non-cenceptutial practices. I am just not sold that type of approach has having a very good rate of delivery. So far I haven't seen any serious evidence of superiority of any one method over another. I also haven't seen any evidence that a method has any effect whatsoever in helping to bring about enlightenment. All so called evidence so far has been anecdotal and retrospective. My guess is that some practices do indeed have positive effects such as peace of mind, increased energy, mental clarity. But neither these effects nor the practices have anything to do with enlightenment. Seekers come to a monastery looking for enlightenment, the masters tell them to practise silent mind all day long. The vast majority of those seekers won't die enlightened, but even if they miss the mark, at least they will have gained peace of mind or somesuch thing. It's a good strategy imo, some seekers may even mistake peace of mind for enlightenment, overall such institutions serve a good purpose for society. Every once in a while an enlightened person will appear, and be quickly recognized, whereas in other cultures with no such insitutions a buddha might never even be recognized. It might be possible that enlightenment is distributed completely randomly throughout world's population. It's just that in some cultures there is a context in which enlightenment can be addressed or even worshipped, in some cultures there is no context at all for such things. A sannyasin in India will probably exaggerate every minor spiritual experience, tell everyone about it and be applauded. On the other hand what is a car mechanic from my hometown who experiences oneness supposed to do? He can't tell his colleagues that he and the car are one, he can't come home and disturb his wife and kids with some nonduality jibberish. And that's in this day and age, now imagine a similar scenario five hundred years ago. |
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?........you tell me..........i try to find the good in all situations