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Post by silver on Aug 6, 2013 18:57:00 GMT -5
On this forum it seems obvious that several folks are in the same boat with the professor. Who? The professor was right btw. Thoughts obviously do occur even in situations where extremely quick reaction is required. Apparently you have this strawman that thoughts are only those that are spelled out in one's mind, but the essence of a thought is a movement of mind prior to its expression in language. I don't believe you that the professor was angry, he was probably just getting impatient because you didn't get his point, and I can't blame him. You have a condescending attitude about everyone who doesn't agree with you and then you even imagine stories that present them in a bad light. I definitely tend to agree here because it took thought initially, to create the habit through repetition - I don't think it can hardly be because a person isn't thinking about it or hasn't created the habit without thinking first - the repetition is what creates a streamlined path. And I agree with the other stuff, too.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 6, 2013 19:28:09 GMT -5
Who? The professor was right btw. Thoughts obviously do occur even in situations where extremely quick reaction is required. Apparently you have this strawman that thoughts are only those that are spelled out in one's mind, but the essence of a thought is a movement of mind prior to its expression in language. I don't believe you that the professor was angry, he was probably just getting impatient because you didn't get his point, and I can't blame him. You have a condescending attitude about everyone who doesn't agree with you and then you even imagine stories that present them in a bad light. I definitely tend to agree here because it took thought initially, to create the habit through repetition - I don't think it can hardly be because a person isn't thinking about it or hasn't created the habit without thinking first - the repetition is what creates a streamlined path. And I agree with the other stuff, too. I probably drank too much wine that night, and remembered it all wrong, but just in case I didn't, pay attention to what happens the next time an unforeseen emergency occurs. *staggers off toward the kitchen to pour a glass of wine*
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Post by laughter on Aug 6, 2013 19:28:49 GMT -5
True. It can be useful to make the distinction between knowing something about one, and unknowing something about many. I don't know anything about one, though I can see there's nothing to know. I also don't know anything about two except that it appears as a mirage on the horizon and can never quench anybody's thirst. This is what is meant by knowing nothing. Separation is an illusion that can be seen through. After all, it was your idea, wasn't it? Your mind conceived the notion and accepted it without question. Now we turn around and question a belief that has seemed so obvious and foundational for our entire lives. These dialogues are sometimes a hoot. They remind me of a party I once attended hosted by a friend of mine who's a college professor. He teaches a course titled "Higher Order Thinking" (ha ha--yes, I've even taught a class in this myself, but it's still a funny course title). I mentioned to someone at the party that thinking is not as necessary as most people believe, and that beliefs are also not necessary. I explained that if someone is walking down a street, and a car suddenly swerves toward them, the body will attempt to jump out of the way, and thinking will be absent until things calm down again. My professor friend overheard me, and strongly disputed what I had said. I replied that it's possible to learn how to suspend thought, and that when the mind is silent, the body is still aware, and can intelligently respond to whatever is happening. He disputed even this, and began to get a bit hot under the collar, so I further explained that jet pilots use simulators to train the body to respond in emergencies because when an engine fails, there is often no time for the luxury of discursive thought--that body knowledge becomes essential. The professor became even more upset at this claim and said, "No! Thinking still occurs; the thoughts just occur faster!" Having never experienced a silent mind, the professor had no experiential basis for understanding what I was talking about, so I gave up and went to pour myself another glass of wine. On this forum it seems obvious that several folks are in the same boat with the professor. (** sips lime seltzer **)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 20:15:47 GMT -5
This whole shlemiel is a rather well thought out plan. You said "try to see clearly as possible." How the hell are you gonna do that? Try to pick up a pencil. You either pick it up, or you do not. There is no "try." This isn't Star Wars and you aren't Yoda. Yes, realization dissolves the questions. He said "Tzu's crusade against "beliefs"". This isn't Star Wars and you aren't Yoda. I'm not a Star Wars aficionado, and I'm aware I'm not Yoda. I feel pretty confident saying you're not, either. Yes, realization dissolves the questions. I'm not convinced you've had a realization. He said "Tzu's crusade against "beliefs"". So what.
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Post by onehandclapping on Aug 6, 2013 20:24:57 GMT -5
Who? The professor was right btw. Thoughts obviously do occur even in situations where extremely quick reaction is required. Apparently you have this strawman that thoughts are only those that are spelled out in one's mind, but the essence of a thought is a movement of mind prior to its expression in language. I don't believe you that the professor was angry, he was probably just getting impatient because you didn't get his point, and I can't blame him. You have a condescending attitude about everyone who doesn't agree with you and then you even imagine stories that present them in a bad light. I definitely tend to agree here because it took thought initially, to create the habit through repetition - I don't think it can hardly be because a person isn't thinking about it or hasn't created the habit without thinking first - the repetition is what creates a streamlined path. And I agree with the other stuff, too. So when the doctor hits your knee and your leg kicks out that is a thought controlled reaction? When a bug flies into your eye and you blink that's a thought controlled reaction? When you put your hand on a hot eye on a stove and pull it away quickly, that's a thought controlled reaction? Next are you gonna say that thoughts control the heart beating???
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Post by silver on Aug 6, 2013 20:32:31 GMT -5
I definitely tend to agree here because it took thought initially, to create the habit through repetition - I don't think it can hardly be because a person isn't thinking about it or hasn't created the habit without thinking first - the repetition is what creates a streamlined path. And I agree with the other stuff, too. So when the doctor hits your knee and your leg kicks out that is a thought controlled reaction? When a bug flies into your eye and you blink that's a thought controlled reaction? When you put your hand on a hot eye on a stove and pull it away quickly, that's a thought controlled reaction? Next are you gonna say that thoughts control the heart beating??? Hon, those don't even fit into the category of thinking because they're reflexive things. I know that the heart/lungs are involuntary systems within our bodies.
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Post by enigma on Aug 6, 2013 21:26:10 GMT -5
As I see it, thought forms out of very crude impressions, feelings, memories, sense perceptions. Beginning in a highly incoherent state and culminating in an organized conscious thought, and so where it all becomes what we call thought is arbitrary, and yet clearly action can and does happen without corresponding conscious thoughts. The functioning of what we call the subconscious has both advantages and disadvantages, but it is clearly happening even in common tasks like talking and walking.
With regard to this conversation, the point being made is that conscious thought need not be involved in most activities, and is really very inefficient. I personally would not refer to this as body knowledge, but I don't have a real problem with it. Maybe I would call it pre-thought. It seems like a much more 'natural' way to function.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 6, 2013 21:47:24 GMT -5
As I see it, thought forms out of very crude impressions, feelings, memories, sense perceptions. Beginning in a highly incoherent state and culminating in an organized conscious thought, and so where it all becomes what we call thought is arbitrary, and yet clearly action can and does happen without corresponding conscious thoughts. The functioning of what we call the subconscious has both advantages and disadvantages, but it is clearly happening even in common tasks like talking and walking. With regard to this conversation, the point being made is that conscious thought need not be involved in most activities, and is really very inefficient. I personally would not refer to this as body knowledge, but I don't have a real problem with it. Maybe I would call it pre-thought. It seems like a much more 'natural' way to function. E: That sounds way too sensible. You've probably had too much to drink, too.
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Post by enigma on Aug 6, 2013 22:21:45 GMT -5
As I see it, thought forms out of very crude impressions, feelings, memories, sense perceptions. Beginning in a highly incoherent state and culminating in an organized conscious thought, and so where it all becomes what we call thought is arbitrary, and yet clearly action can and does happen without corresponding conscious thoughts. The functioning of what we call the subconscious has both advantages and disadvantages, but it is clearly happening even in common tasks like talking and walking. With regard to this conversation, the point being made is that conscious thought need not be involved in most activities, and is really very inefficient. I personally would not refer to this as body knowledge, but I don't have a real problem with it. Maybe I would call it pre-thought. It seems like a much more 'natural' way to function. E: That sounds way too sensible. You've probably had too much to drink, too. I'll think about it for a while. Maybe that will sober me up.
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Post by runstill on Aug 7, 2013 0:25:42 GMT -5
These dialogues are sometimes a hoot. They remind me of a party I once attended hosted by a friend of mine who's a college professor. He teaches a course titled "Higher Order Thinking" (ha ha--yes, I've even taught a class in this myself, but it's still a funny course title). I mentioned to someone at the party that thinking is not as necessary as most people believe, and that beliefs are also not necessary. I explained that if someone is walking down a street, and a car suddenly swerves toward them, the body will attempt to jump out of the way, and thinking will be absent until things calm down again. My professor friend overheard me, and strongly disputed what I had said. I replied that it's possible to learn how to suspend thought, and that when the mind is silent, the body is still aware, and can intelligently respond to whatever is happening. He disputed even this, and began to get a bit hot under the collar, so I further explained that jet pilots use simulators to train the body to respond in emergencies because when an engine fails, there is often no time for the luxury of discursive thought--that body knowledge becomes essential. The professor became even more upset at this claim and said, "No! Thinking still occurs; the thoughts just occur faster!" Having never experienced a silent mind, the professor had no experiential basis for understanding what I was talking about, so I gave up and went to pour myself another glass of wine. On this forum it seems obvious that several folks are in the same boat with the professor. (** sips lime seltzer **) Being around some one like that would make me drink too. When I've been in marshal arts competition there is only body knowledge running the show mind is way to slow to keep up with the chess like strategy the body employs in fact I'm always surprised to see where a hand , foot or elbow ends up.
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Post by laughter on Aug 7, 2013 0:28:28 GMT -5
E: That sounds way too sensible. You've probably had too much to drink, too. I'll think about it for a while. Maybe that will sober me up. shoulda' thought of that before you cracked the bottle open!
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Post by onehandclapping on Aug 7, 2013 0:54:40 GMT -5
So when the doctor hits your knee and your leg kicks out that is a thought controlled reaction? When a bug flies into your eye and you blink that's a thought controlled reaction? When you put your hand on a hot eye on a stove and pull it away quickly, that's a thought controlled reaction? Next are you gonna say that thoughts control the heart beating??? Hon, those don't even fit into the category of thinking because they're reflexive things. I know that the heart/lungs are involuntary systems within our bodies. Exactly! Mindless action. So if you recognize that, why agree with what's his name.... Can't remember from your original post.....
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Post by onehandclapping on Aug 7, 2013 1:02:56 GMT -5
So when the doctor hits your knee and your leg kicks out that is a thought controlled reaction? When a bug flies into your eye and you blink that's a thought controlled reaction? When you put your hand on a hot eye on a stove and pull it away quickly, that's a thought controlled reaction? Next are you gonna say that thoughts control the heart beating??? Hon, those don't even fit into the category of thinking because they're reflexive things. I know that the heart/lungs are involuntary systems within our bodies. This is what epi pen face said: The professor was right btw. Thoughts obviously do occur even in situations where extremely quick reaction is required. Apparently you have this strawman that thoughts are only those that are spelled out in one's mind, but the essence of a thought is a movement of mind prior to its expression in language. Do you think I need to catch my balance or does it just happen? Do you think I need to take my hand off the hot stove or does it just happen? Do you think I need to think before action or can action just arise out of instinct? And where is the line between instinct and thought based action drawn? This would be a more accurate response to you silver...
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Post by silver on Aug 7, 2013 2:03:58 GMT -5
(** sips lime seltzer **) Being around some one like that would make me drink too. When I've been in marshal arts competition there is only body knowledge running the show mind is way to slow to keep up with the chess like strategy the body employs in fact I'm always surprised to see where a hand , foot or elbow ends up. This response is more for ohc re his argument with me: Is your head not connected/mind/brain not connected to the rest of your being? Your body can perform like that because of the practice - Your moves become (!) instinctive, of course. When the debates become more about whom you agree with around here, that's when it becomes childish. What 'm I saying? It's always been childish. Guess who we have to thank for that.
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Post by enigma on Aug 7, 2013 3:23:35 GMT -5
(** sips lime seltzer **) Being around some one like that would make me drink too. When I've been in marshal arts competition there is only body knowledge running the show mind is way to slow to keep up with the chess like strategy the body employs in fact I'm always surprised to see where a hand , foot or elbow ends up. The other day, somebody in the freeway lane driving next to me suddenly moved into my lane. What I noticed is that at the first point of recognition of what was happening, I was already driving in the emergency lane. There was no conscious recognition of a thought to move out of the way, and it seems clear there was no time for one.
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