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Post by klaus on Apr 8, 2010 18:49:02 GMT -5
Hello everybody,
All is going well with us, so far. My wife is still in the hospital due to complications after surgery but she is recovering.
I've been reading the posts on the forum, especially all the questions that are asked and it occured to me that these questions are like beating a dead horse. No matter how much you beat the horse it will still be dead.
Just an observation.
Klaus
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Post by frankshank on Apr 9, 2010 4:41:54 GMT -5
It's fun beating dead horses and there's neigh good reason not to!
Hope your wife gets well soon!
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Post by question on Apr 9, 2010 20:33:16 GMT -5
Nonduality has a lot of plotholes and contradictions and the teachers can't remove them to my satisfaction. Most of you have had the privilege of having a spiritual experience to clear things up and pave the way. But I didn't, so how am I to have any sort of faith and not ask questions? Hope your wife gets well soon! +1 |
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Post by karen on Apr 9, 2010 21:05:17 GMT -5
Klaus, I'm sorry to hear about your wife's complications. I hope you two get out of there real soon!
Hey Question, I don't think there's any problem with your questions or from anybody else. We all must bang our heads on the wall it seems. Things get a little slow around here without the questions.
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Post by klaus on Apr 9, 2010 22:11:55 GMT -5
My point is questions will no more lead you to the TRUTH then no questions at all.
If you'll just be, there you will find TRUTH.
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2010 23:02:31 GMT -5
'Just being' is not something anybody can do. Hehe. Just being is an effect rather than a cause. The question is, effect of what?
Perhaps not so much the effect of looking for answers that satisfy the mind, but there's no problem with the questions themselves. Questions are a focus of mind, and are necessary in order to resolve false knowledge, which is in the domain of mind, but the answers being sought are not 'mind objects'. IOW, mind and conceptualization cannot reveal the false nature of mind's conceptualization. However, you are not the mind and so we could say that clarity is quite available to you, and effortlessly.
This clarity regarding the questioning focus of mind is variously called intuition, clarity, direct perception, and sometimes gnosis. It's mother's intuition, the AHA! moment of the scientist, the prognostications of the psychic. It's readily available to everyone, though there are, perhaps, techniques to enhance the ability, and different intentions involved.
The first requirement is a desire and willingness to see the answer, and approaching this with a childlike innocence and curiosity is extremely helpful. Use the mind as a focusing tool and ask the question, much the way a scientist would formulate a problem in his mind, but instead of trying to think your way to an answer, stop the thoughts and just look at where mind has pointed and allow your vision to expand, as though you are looking at it from outer space or something, trying to get a universal view instead of your normal constricted view. A little trust that you CAN see this may be needed.
With any luck, there will be a sense that something has been seen. If mind reaches for it prematurely, it will be lost. Just gently pull at the threads and bring it into clarity. With all AHA! moment, there is a slight delay between the realization, and the conceptualization of it. The realization is not the realization of a concept, and when it occurs, mind does not know what is realized. YOU know that you know, but you don't know what you know. This is why it must be cajoled and teased into mind or it will be lost.
What will likely happen next, is that mind will be informed by this realization as it begins to conceptualize it. Ultimately, though it may feel like mind is learning something, since we are exploring Truth and not some scientific theory, it is actually unlearning. Some concept held to be true is dissolving in this clarity. It must be allowed to dissolve. This is the goal. There will be more 'space' in the wake of this dissolving, and less confusion.
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Post by frankshank on Apr 10, 2010 4:19:03 GMT -5
Nonduality has a lot of plotholes and contradictions and the teachers can't remove them to my satisfaction. Most of you have had the privilege of having a spiritual experience to clear things up and pave the way. But I didn't, so how am I to have any sort of faith and not ask questions? Hope your wife gets well soon! +1 I have a fair amount of skepticism as well but the spiritual experience I had was seriously weird. I've compared it to taking drugs but there were differences. It felt like I was getting how things really were. I came to see that my view of the world had been so very limited. What I can state without reservation is that the enlightened folk (LOL) on this board have a clarity that we do not. When we are no longer attached to memories, beliefs etc.. every angle to every situation becomes apparent (or so it seems). The blinkers come off. Does that mean that an enlightened person/being understands everything though?! I think not. I think a lot of what you read on this site and in books etc.. are developed ideas. I felt no need whatsoever to understand my experience. I knew that 'Frank's' view of reality was limited but there were no spirit guides, no feelings of oneness etc.. I felt a much better connection with others but I didn't think for one moment that we were all one. Perhaps I didn't have the clarity that some of the guys on this site have but without having any knowledge of 'enlightenment' prior to my experience perhaps my experience was purer. Who knows. It's very interesting, which is why I'm here. My advice to you if you want to have a spiritual experience is to meditate in an unstructured fashion. Sit how you like, breath in and out how you like. Whatever. The key thing is that it needs to be effortless and enjoyable. If it feels like a chore and you're trying to get somewhere with it you'll most likely fail. Try to forget about enlightenment and meditate to relax and just be. Maybe something will happen, maybe it won't. The key is not to care either way! |
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Post by lightmystic on Apr 10, 2010 13:37:39 GMT -5
I didn't find that at all. I found that questions were essentially the only thing that led me to truth. Yes, no intellectual answer is going to permanently satisfy, but the questions aren't really an intellectual process ultimately anyway (they are not very interesting as an intellectual endeavor, and so the thing driving the whole process is what the questions help clarify - and that is gut/knowing level). My point is questions will no more lead you to the TRUTH then no questions at all. If you'll just be, there you will find TRUTH. |
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Post by lightmystic on Apr 10, 2010 13:38:58 GMT -5
That can work, but it can also get in the way. Meditation never really helped me personally, although there are definitely many people that it did help. No one way is right for everyone. There's nothing that can really act as a valid substitute for just listening to ourselves at the deepest level, and/or listening to Life. Nonduality has a lot of plotholes and contradictions and the teachers can't remove them to my satisfaction. Most of you have had the privilege of having a spiritual experience to clear things up and pave the way. But I didn't, so how am I to have any sort of faith and not ask questions? +1 I have a fair amount of skepticism as well but the spiritual experience I had was seriously weird. I've compared it to taking drugs but there were differences. It felt like I was getting how things really were. I came to see that my view of the world had been so very limited. What I can state without reservation is that the enlightened folk (LOL) on this board have a clarity that we do not. When we are no longer attached to memories, beliefs etc.. every angle to every situation becomes apparent (or so it seems). The blinkers come off. Does that mean that an enlightened person/being understands everything though?! I think not. I think a lot of what you read on this site and in books etc.. are developed ideas. I felt no need whatsoever to understand my experience. I knew that 'Frank's' view of reality was limited but there were no spirit guides, no feelings of oneness etc.. I felt a much better connection with others but I didn't think for one moment that we were all one. Perhaps I didn't have the clarity that some of the guys on this site have but without having any knowledge of 'enlightenment' prior to my experience perhaps my experience was purer. Who knows. It's very interesting, which is why I'm here. My advice to you if you want to have a spiritual experience is to meditate in an unstructured fashion. Sit how you like, breath in and out how you like. Whatever. The key thing is that it needs to be effortless and enjoyable. If it feels like a chore and you're trying to get somewhere with it you'll most likely fail. Try to forget about enlightenment and meditate to relax and just be. Maybe something will happen, maybe it won't. The key is not to care either way! |
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Post by frankshank on Apr 10, 2010 14:10:23 GMT -5
Fairplay LM. I've read before that meditation isn't effective for everyone. I think it can be an obstacle if you're focusing on the benefits that will come your way as a result of doing it and that was what I was really trying to get at. I shouldn't really offer advice without a permit!   |
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Post by lightmystic on Apr 10, 2010 14:45:26 GMT -5
Hehe, well I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing what works for you and why. |
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Post by loverofall on Apr 10, 2010 20:58:13 GMT -5
Meditation helped me undo some patterns but changing the description to resting or relaxing in awareness made a large difference in how it is approached. Shifting from achieving a meditative state to letting go into a relaxing and aware percpetion by just looking around and listening is powerful. Even for a few minutes, it takes me out of the I. Anytime we let go and realize everything is all right, there is nothing to become or achieve seems to get me out of the I perspective and all my desires and fears.
Now the question there rises is why don't I do this more often if it is so effective than a couple times a week. Then again putting pressure on is seeking and ego creating urgency so who knows. Sometimes I am totally not identified with the I and other times I am the I caught up in suffering and wanting. LOL.
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Post by klaus on Apr 11, 2010 19:58:21 GMT -5
Enigma,
Being is neither effect nor cause. Being simply is: indepent of everything and dependent on nothing.
The mind has nothing to do with realization of TRUTH, it cannot comprehend TRUTH. The mind is totally useless in the moment of realization.
That "ahha!" moment transcends mind and shows the futillity of any question asked prior to that "ahha" moment.
It is when questioning is exhausted and the mind finally stilled that we see TRUTH.
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Post by enigma on Apr 12, 2010 0:48:02 GMT -5
Enigma, Being is neither effect nor cause. Being simply is: indepent of everything and dependent on nothing. The mind has nothing to do with realization of TRUTH, it cannot comprehend TRUTH. The mind is totally useless in the moment of realization. That "ahha!" moment transcends mind and shows the futillity of any question asked prior to that "ahha" moment. It is when questioning is exhausted and the mind finally stilled that we see TRUTH. That too. |
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Post by Peter on Apr 12, 2010 2:55:38 GMT -5
Now the question there rises is why don't I do this more often if it is so effective than a couple times a week. Then again putting pressure on is seeking and ego creating urgency so who knows. I had a teacher who was of the opinion that one's meditation practice should be like holding a peach. You want a tight enough grip so that it doesn't fall to the ground, but not so tight that you crush it.  |
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