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Post by klaus on Dec 3, 2008 14:59:04 GMT -5
light mystic
I have no argument with you on what Enlightenment is...
When I refer to a person who commits suicide as unenlightened, by that I mean a person who stands in ignorance of their true nature as That which Is, as opposed to a person who has chosen death who has realized their true nature.
But in the world of duality where right and wrong exist the person who commits suicide in ignorance is wrong. In the process of death the issues of the unenlightened person, because they are in ignorance of there true nature wll identify themselves with their issues in the world of duality and will complicate the death process.
But the enlightened person who has realized their true nature , who has chosen death, is free from the world of duality and enters into the process of death with no issues to complicate the death process because there is no person or issues. So in the world of duality where right and wrong exist this is right.
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 3, 2008 15:16:12 GMT -5
Klaus,
What is wrong with ignorance, other than it's not something you personally want? Why do you say that there is a separate duality where right and wrong exist? Is duality separate from nonduality? Are they not exactly the same thing?
As to murder, I did another post about that, maybe that will address more of what your point is.
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Post by klaus on Dec 3, 2008 15:22:11 GMT -5
lightmystic
We live in a world of duality where good and evil, right and wrong, up and down exist.
this world also arises in undifferentiated Reality.
All I can say is we'll have to agree to disagree.
Klaus
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 3, 2008 15:53:49 GMT -5
Fair enough Klaus, and I certainly relate to what you are saying. I felt that way for a long time.
Are you sure that there's no relationship between the differentiated and undifferentiated reality? You might be shocked if you check out the edge of your experience on that....
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Post by klaus on Dec 3, 2008 16:04:25 GMT -5
Sophia,
CJ is right, whereas, I would substitute evil for darkness and good for light in this dualistic world and because there is a path for good and a path for evil that people can chose from objectively in this world of duality there is an objective good and evil. Even though they are both sides of the same coin.
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Post by klaus on Dec 3, 2008 16:18:03 GMT -5
lightmystic
They are interrelated, two sides of the same coin, ultimately One.
what changed your point of view? I am trying to learn.
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Dec 3, 2008 22:55:31 GMT -5
Suicide is a belief that freedom lies in taking one's own life.
If you guys really want to get technical, there is no reality, there only is, but even then there isn't because as soon as you try and capture "it", it already isn't.
It's like trying to capture a wave, if you bottle it, it's only water. You can never capture the wave.
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 4, 2008 12:18:57 GMT -5
Ultimately, the way things shift for people is a little different. The main thing is the knowing that there IS a relationship, even if it's not completely clear yet, and having the desire for it to be completely clear. Then life will get your back and help you whichever way is necessary. (of course that may already be going on, I'm not saying it isn't). Some things that really helped it become a reality for me: 1. Notice that there is SOME relationship between your inner pool of Being and the apparently unrelated causal reality. It might be perceived as a gentle glow, almost like a form of subtle sight. Almost as if perceived with the heart (and possibly also the eyes to some extent). Almost as if the heart is that connection valve, that sense organ that can detect the relationship... 2. Understand that it's not "X thing gets unified with Y thing" suddenly. It's more like, on some quiet level, you are telling yourself all the time that everything is not connected. Without that assumption (i.e. when that assumption is examined) it will be seen to have only been that: an assumption. Things were never separate to begin with. Thus, even now, the shift will be a realization involving something less being in the way, not an additional thing happening. 3. While the desire for that unification is important (in fact, really the only thing ultimately needed if the desire is sincere) The act of "trying" to see everything as unified can get in the way if one is trying too hard. There's nothing wrong with trying, but if it's getting frustrating, that may be what's going on. Just something to be aware of. 4. Examine your "edges". Find the edge of your experience, the edge of your being, the edge of your awareness. Do you go out to the edge of the world? The edge of the Universe? Beyond that? 5. At this point, it seems to be helpful to examine one's Cosmic Body. It's the body of God, but's not God, in a sense, because it's YOUR Cosmic Body. This body encompasses all of Creation. The workings of the universe are the internal workings of your cosmic body. And it might be examined and realized, at least to some extent, that there is a correlation between that cosmic body and your physical body. They are similar, perhaps even the same in a sense. It's a feeling of your cosmic body, which helps shed light on the lack of separation with God. The relationship between you and God is like this picture: mathworld.wolfram.com/YoungGirl-OldWomanIllusion.htmlFrom one angle it's an old woman, from another it's a young girl, but it's the same picture. Similarly, you and God are the SAME THING, but that doesn't mean you look like God. You look at it one way and it's you, and look at it another way and it's God. But there's no separation because it's the same picture, as it were. Anyway, that's some initial stuff to examine anyway. If you want some more person-specific stuff, just PM me. lightmystic They are interrelated, two sides of the same coin, ultimately One. what changed your point of view? I am trying to learn. |
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Post by commiejesus on Dec 4, 2008 15:58:03 GMT -5
Murder. Ok I'll bite....murder might not be not the worst "sin" esoterically, despite the Bible or Christian doctrine. It is an event with karmic attachemnts, but what if you "murder" a mugger who was about to kill an innocent. How will this affect your Karma? Great quotes CJ and Sophia, I definitely connect with them. Sure, I'd be happy to explain myself more clearly, Klaus. There is nothing in specific outwardly that can be a definitive sign of whether a person is Enlightened or not. Everyone has issues, and one can know who one is and still have all kinds of issues. These issues seem to start to be resolved over time, but there can theoretically still be any issue or lack of issue and that does not necessarily validate or invalidate one's experience of Enlightenment (or lack of Enlightenment). Enlightenment is something beyond the Relative. It is not a morality, a code of conduct, or anything that involves being a "good" or "descent" person. There is no such thing as an Enlightened personality, because Enlightenment is the realization of the end of duality. That means that everything, and I mean absolutely EVERYTHING, without exception, is experienced the Infinite, That which is beyond all space/time, That which can never be said, but only pointed to, and this is experienced with the clarity that That is what one IS, and has always been. BTW, although it's simultaneously completely flashy and completely normal, people tend to focus on the flash, so let me stress that this is already going on. Everyone is already having this experience, but ideas of self and control and connection and all of that gets in the way of it being seen clearly and so it feels like an "additional" "thing" that "one" needs to "get". All of the quotations are common misnomers. -It's not additional - it's already going on. -it's not a "thing". It's the infinite. It's, by definition, lack of a "thing" because the infinite cannot be defined with edges. It is the unknown itself if you want to look at it that way. -there are no separate people to "get it." This is the most confusing part in my experience because it's simultaneously true and untrue at the same time while remaining in perfect harmony with each other. It's the paradox. - "get" - it cannot be gotten because it's already had. All that can be done is have the resistance/misconceptions in the way removed and relaxed and then it's the most obvious thing in the world. More obvious THAN the world, actually.  It's self evident. Does that make sense? Next post we should talk about murder. This is such an awesome topic that I think I'll create a new thread for it. Can you clarify what you mean by unenlightened behavior and that murder isn't objectively wrong? |
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 4, 2008 16:44:38 GMT -5
Exactly. How could we know? It seems like it might even be the morally right thing to do, but who knows? Murder. Ok I'll bite....murder might not be not the worst "sin" esoterically, despite the Bible or Christian doctrine. It is an event with karmic attachemnts, but what if you "murder" a mugger who was about to kill an innocent. How will this affect your Karma? Great quotes CJ and Sophia, I definitely connect with them. Sure, I'd be happy to explain myself more clearly, Klaus. There is nothing in specific outwardly that can be a definitive sign of whether a person is Enlightened or not. Everyone has issues, and one can know who one is and still have all kinds of issues. These issues seem to start to be resolved over time, but there can theoretically still be any issue or lack of issue and that does not necessarily validate or invalidate one's experience of Enlightenment (or lack of Enlightenment). Enlightenment is something beyond the Relative. It is not a morality, a code of conduct, or anything that involves being a "good" or "descent" person. There is no such thing as an Enlightened personality, because Enlightenment is the realization of the end of duality. That means that everything, and I mean absolutely EVERYTHING, without exception, is experienced the Infinite, That which is beyond all space/time, That which can never be said, but only pointed to, and this is experienced with the clarity that That is what one IS, and has always been. BTW, although it's simultaneously completely flashy and completely normal, people tend to focus on the flash, so let me stress that this is already going on. Everyone is already having this experience, but ideas of self and control and connection and all of that gets in the way of it being seen clearly and so it feels like an "additional" "thing" that "one" needs to "get". All of the quotations are common misnomers. -It's not additional - it's already going on. -it's not a "thing". It's the infinite. It's, by definition, lack of a "thing" because the infinite cannot be defined with edges. It is the unknown itself if you want to look at it that way. -there are no separate people to "get it." This is the most confusing part in my experience because it's simultaneously true and untrue at the same time while remaining in perfect harmony with each other. It's the paradox. - "get" - it cannot be gotten because it's already had. All that can be done is have the resistance/misconceptions in the way removed and relaxed and then it's the most obvious thing in the world. More obvious THAN the world, actually. It's self evident. Does that make sense? Next post we should talk about murder. This is such an awesome topic that I think I'll create a new thread for it. |
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Post by klaus on Dec 5, 2008 0:48:34 GMT -5
lightmystic
it's a point of view either from "I" or IT.
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 5, 2008 11:14:58 GMT -5
Yes, I suppose that is what it comes down to, klaus. Being as if "I" from the point of view of "That" kind of makes it seem okay though. Although it's also okay that I personally don't like it along with it being objectively okay with me.
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Post by klaus on Dec 5, 2008 12:45:19 GMT -5
Yes, I suppose that is what it comes down to, klaus. Being as if "I" from the point of view of "That" kind of makes it seem okay though. Although it's also okay that I personally don't like it along with it being objectively okay with me. lightmystic fair enough. klaus |
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It's self evident.