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Post by question on Mar 15, 2010 1:31:47 GMT -5
This one goes to the enlightened ones among us.
Let's say God would give you a choice to transfer your enlightenment to another, completely random human being that you've never even met before (let's say Yildirim Mohamed from Istanbul, 42, car mechanic) in the process of which you would lose your own enlightenment and return to a completely ignorant life. So then Yildirim would become enlightened and you again would get to live like the rest of us 6 billion ignorant human creatures. Would you do it? Yes, no, why?
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 15, 2010 10:59:40 GMT -5
I hate to sound esoteric here, but the person that could choose or not choose ignorance has been found to never exist. So the very person that could be ignorant is gone....how would one answer your question?
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Post by eputkonen on Mar 15, 2010 16:06:18 GMT -5
A trick question...because to answer it first requires the acceptance a "me" possessing enlightenment (i.e."your enlightenment"). Then the question askes this "me" (which is an illusion) whether it would be willing to transfer what it acquired (another myth of Enlightenment) to a stranger. Lastly, this implies that enlightenment is superior or better than still not realizing this is a game/play/dream/etc.
There are other flaws to this hypothetical question, but I'll give it a shot - for fun.
Not to transfer...this body/mind is playing the game of being enlightened...and it is no better or worse a game than playing an "unenlightened" car mechanic. Each body/mind has its own part and role in this game/play...not under the control or choosing of the body/mind. The same Self playing one enlightened being is the same Self playing another unenlightened being. The Self plays all parts of this play...no role is superior or inferior.
So even if the choice was given...how could you choose? Which option is better and better for whom?
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Post by question on Mar 15, 2010 20:31:40 GMT -5
I knew you would answer this way, ok then let's go to step two. Let me get more specific, try to look past the "choice" or "free will" aspect of it and think of it more in terms of compassion and ethics.
Like you said, enlightened beings are essentially the same as non-enlightened beings. They lose all fear, even the fear of being not enlightened. This means that from your point of view it makes no difference whether you're enlightened or not. As Eric said, the Self plays all parts, no role is superior or inferior. If you were to ask the car mechanic whether he'd like to be enlightened or not and he says "yes" why not give it to him? You have some candy (enlightened understanding) that you don't need and this guy never tasted candy and would like to try it, why not give it to him?
In case you haven't already guessed, I'm basically hinting at the following, and I'll say it it a provocative way: Why are the enlightened masters so inefficient (dare I say lazy?) at being enlightened masters? Why don't they do everything imaginable in their power to transmit their understanding? Of course you could say "oh it doesn't matter, that's why". But I'll say they should do everything possible exactly because nothing matters.
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 15, 2010 20:44:55 GMT -5
Hey Question,
There are a lot of potential answers to this, all of them valid. One answer is that, upon realization, one sees that no one else NEEDS to be Enlightened. Not only that, but all growth is really self growth. A master cannot force a person to learn anything. If they are really ready, then they can do a lot, but Life always steps in too. Life is always giving us our next thing, whether it looks like an Enlightened Master or not. If people are not ready, no amount of pushing, teaching, or giving techniques, methods, or knowledge is really going to help. And, if someone really wants it badly enough, they will be brought what they need to undo themselves. So, the real question, from my perspective, is why are Enlightened people even talking about it at all? No one can be pushed past their willingness, and, if the willingness is there, then Life will provide one way or another anyway! It's really just such a joy to sit and discuss truth with someone genuinely interested in growth. And the questions that come up force a person to look more closely at their experience of Self. And this happens from both sides.
See what I'm saying?
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Post by eputkonen on Mar 15, 2010 20:59:05 GMT -5
If you were to ask the car mechanic whether he'd like to be enlightened or not and he says "yes" why not give it to him? Only if it was so easy. Being an "unenlightened" car mechanic is not a bad role to play...so unless he came to me and said help me wake up...what more can I do than be available for when and if he does come? Even if he does come and say help me...I can only point...I can't bring him there or do it for him. So few actually want Enlightenment...and fewer still actually will seek out and ask help of someone who says they are Enlightened (whether or not they are Enlightened is another question entirely). Fewer still will continue discourses...after the first tenderizing of the ego and belief structures, many run away. Only if it was so easy...as your questions make it sound. |
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Post by amit on Mar 18, 2010 11:25:08 GMT -5
Q:
What fun..........
Enlightenment, defined as profound resonance that All is One ending the search for unicity and the disconnection that drives it, could only be transferred by Oneness to itself. No separate person could make that transfer happen or prevent it for in that story there are no separate persons.
It's worse than that for if there are no separate persons there would be no-one to be un-enlightened in the first place.
-amit-
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Post by question on Mar 19, 2010 17:39:12 GMT -5
Thanks for your replies LM, Eric and Amit!
I still don't fully understand how it can be that teachers are so powerless. Mine and the masters consciousness is supposedly the same, so what is it that makes him see the truth but prevents his understanding to be present where I am? Since we're the same consciousness, then why can't he just tune into me and do his thing? Not as a seperate person, but as oneness working with the refined tools of his bodymind?
Some people went to Ramana and got a huge experience. Same people go to another certified master and this master is unable to give them anything. Both are oneness in action, both are enlightened, but the effect they have on people is so radically different. Does it have something to do with energy levels or something? Like if master2 were to meditate for 25 years non stop and acquire special powers, then he could do the same magic that Ramana did?
From my reading it seems like seekers can get a lot of spiritual experiences from teachers. But what they can't get is the teachers making them do the final step. So apparently the teachers have tools in their bodymind's arsenal that can make people have spiritual experiences, but they don't have any tools in their bodymind that can make my bodymind get to enlightenment? Would that be a correct way if saying it?
What is that thing in me is so inaccessible to them?
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Post by loverofall on Mar 19, 2010 19:36:39 GMT -5
I believe it comes down to this being a feeling/intuitive path. So when we hear and see a person it is much deeper than reading what that person writes. Reading is mostly conceptual if not all but voice inflections, facial expressions communicate as much or more to our intuitive side. Having questions answered and asked that are personalized to us again hits us deeper than intellect. I get more out of the personal responses on this board than I get out of many readings. Watching teachers on Youtube seem to affect me differently because now I can see and hear the intuitiveness. We all know the intuitiveness is there. As I have changed over the past couple years people react to me differently. So its just not the teacher but your own intuitive awareness that feels something more than the words of the teacher.
Children pick up intuitive things quicker than most adults because they have less ego clouding their awareness.
I have a friend that gets my emails on this stuff and he has never had good intuition but a great thinker and writer. This stuff is so crazy to him because he is totally all about thought but my more intuitive friend has jumped on board and we have learned much of this together.
Fascinating observations to me but they really make total sense.
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Post by eputkonen on Mar 19, 2010 20:21:24 GMT -5
then why can't he just tune into me and do his thing? Not as a seperate person, but as oneness working with the refined tools of his bodymind? No such thing as refined tools of his bodymind exist...and who is supposed to tune into who? Why is the "enlightened" supposed to be more powerful than anyone else? Many got a huge experience from sitting in Ramana's presence...few were enlightened. If you wanted a cool spiritual experience...there are people who are good at shakti pat and energy transference/mobilization. But this has nothing to do with enlightenment. Furthermore, Ramana did no magic...he personally did not do a thing...he usually just sat in silence and occassionally spoke. Enlightenment is not a spiritual experience...and there is no point in giving spiritual experience, as they tend to distract and cause delay in the real questions (for enlightenment). Furthermore, enlightenment is not something the bodymind gets to or acquires. Let's explore another way... If making you enlightened were possible, that would mean forcefully ripping everything from you...destroying all attachments (family, friends, possessions, your own beliefs, etc.). Destroying any feelings of security, control, or personal doership you currently have. It would mean forcefully destroying your ego. Would you really allow this? If you could...why don't you just let go of everything right now? You are That...there is no other. You don't do it right now because you don't really want to. Who am I to go against what you really want? You are the That playing a frustrated seeker wanting enlightenment...but not really wanting to be enlightened right now or you would be. |
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Post by loverofall on Mar 19, 2010 20:42:42 GMT -5
eputkonen:
Your points are valid but there are people who for years were seekers but when face to face talked with a person who has seen through the illusion (It really doesn't feel right to use enlightened person to me) saw through their own illusion.
If you are intuitive talking with another that is free of the ego it makes a difference becauuse of intuition and non verbal communication.
I see by your website you hold meetings with people. Why do that if there is no benefit?
There is benefit to meeting a teacher and there is benefit in meeting a teacher that can see your hurdles. Just having people like Zendancer and LIghtmystic reply to posts has been instrumental dropping illusions.
I understand that we can see past the mind at any time but until someone is ready there are patterns to be undone.
I saw you were on the path for 13 years so was there no benefit in those 13 years of effort?
I would not even have been on this path if there wasn't effort put into undoing the ego so in the beginning effort seems to be part of the formula.
Use the stick to stir the fire and then burn the stick
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Post by eputkonen on Mar 20, 2010 10:22:27 GMT -5
ther are people who for years were seekers but when face to face talked with a person who has seen through the illusion (It really doesn't feel right to use enlightened person to me) saw through their own illusion. Very true...it has happened. But the "enlightened" person did not do anything. It was the "unenlightened" person who was ready to wake up and meeting someone who was awake was just the catalyst for the switch to seeing through their own illusion. That is the power of Satsang...there is a resonance. But the people who wake up are few...and it is not like anyone did anything. The "enlightened" did not do anything to the "unenlightened" to cause a change...and if the "unenlightened" was not ready to wake up, they might have felt nothing at all sitting with this one who was awake. This whole conversation started under the question "why won't you who are enlightened MAKE me enlightened too?" It doesn't work that way. I did not say there was no benefit (there is a resonance)...but what I am saying is there is nothing I could do to those who visit me to make them enlightened. I am not choosing and actively doing anything. Yes, but that is not "making" you enlightened...right now. This whole discussion started on why can't a magic wand be waved and kazam, you're enlightened. I don't know. At times it seems there was of no benefit what-so-ever...at other times it seems there might have been some benefit (perhaps) to some of it. I can not say that it was beneficial...for much of it was not (much was only hinderance). If I met someone who was awake and I was told "cease seeking" and ask who are you...what are you (like I often say to people now)...perhaps I would have woke up before the 13 years seeking and effort was made. Who knows? Did I need any of it? Perhaps not. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 20, 2010 13:42:06 GMT -5
Eric: Perfect explanation except for the last paragraph. You had to do what you did because that is what happened! Any alternative to what actually happened is imaginary. You had to go through thirteen years of searching for you to find that you were already what you were searching for. That is how it played out in your life. Cheers.
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Post by eputkonen on Mar 20, 2010 14:40:37 GMT -5
Eric: Perfect explanation except for the last paragraph. You had to do what you did because that is what happened! Any alternative to what actually happened is imaginary. You had to go through thirteen years of searching for you to find that you were already what you were searching for. That is how it played out in your life. Cheers. True...but that does not answer the question of whether the 13 years of seeking was beneficial or not. I tried to answer that point...perhaps I can make this more clear. I will say that upon awakening...there was the clear realization and understanding that those 13 years did not cause awakening in any way. There was no progression towards enlightenment because of the seeking. All that I had done really had no relation to the realization & understanding that occurred. The 13 years of seeking neither felt like a waste of time...nor did they feel like they really benefited me...it was just what happened. When people do come and ask me questions...one of the first things I will say is cease seeking. Seeking is one of the very things that is hindering awakening/enlightenment. I have not recommended to anyone to continue seeking. P.S. It just occurred that ultimately...who would be benefitted? The Self...That...would not be benefitted...for it does not lack. Does the "ego" benefit? It is an mirage that is ultimately seen through. The "ego" never lets go all the way...awakening is a seeing through it and understanding a mirage can not hold onto anything. So, what benefit could there be to the 13 years of seeking? And to whom? |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 20, 2010 15:36:12 GMT -5
Eric: Okay. I'll buy that, and I agree with you totally now that you've put it like that. Ironically, I sometimes use the exact opposite approach with people. I sometimes tell them to seek like crazy! LOL. Most of the time I simply emphasize silent awareness while bearing in mind whatever it is that they want to know.
In my case there were numerous discrete leaps in understanding that led to greater and greater clarity, but the final leap was a total mystery. I was a real thinker, so all of my questions were posed in rather formal terms. No sooner would I break through one set of ideas than I would get attached to another set of ideas. It took awhile before I realized that the truth lay beyond all of my ideas. LOL.
AAR keep up the good work.
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