The problem with desire

[someNOTHING!]

Jun 5, 2024 7:31:52 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jun 3, 2024 7:35:55 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

It's a good place for logical inference that might even help open up some trans-rational insight. Like, I wonder if Jesus ever said anything similar and/or about Adam, too. The way I interpret it, the poetic prose of the Garden of Eden somewhere uppish on the scale of Gurdjieff's model. But I'll leave that to SDP. I'm sure he has thought about it.

I didn't see this earlier. Christianity, as a whole, is a very deep and very good explanatory model, all the pieces fit. The more you look into it the better the pieces fit and the more it looks irrefutable. I still like to explore the Christian model. I found this guy about 20 years ago, Thomas F Torrance. He was a Scottish theologian, died somewhat recently, probably within the last ten years. But he was an exceptionally smart guy also, basically a scientist. He wrote a book on Maxwell's equations. So I started reading him. I had found this one book from an American publisher, it was about the theology of Torrance. Anything else had to be special ordered, from Scottland-England, Faber & Faber mostly. I knew about a reformed theological seminary in Charlotte, so ordered books through them. Torrance has this one fantastic book called Theological Science. He goes into Relativity and quantum physics as *designed* by God for it as to be a perfect/not-perfect world. I actually read only about 1/3 of it, but it's very good, maybe I'll get back to it.

Got a little sidetracked. If you look at Christianity within the context of the Bible, nothing else, it's virtually irrefutable. But you need from Genesis to Revelation to explain it all. It's accepted that Jesus, appears in Revelation, even dictated it to John (Jesus also explained a lot in the Olivet Discourse in the NT, the Gospels, his future-history). Now, I don't recall in the Gospels that Jesus spoke about existing before Adam (I took that to be your question), but Revelation does. Christianity accepts, necessarily, that the ~Second Person of the Trinity~, existed from the beginning, there wouldn't be a Trinity if he didn't. But there is no name given for the Second Person of the Trinity, who existed before Jesus. He can't be called Jesus, because Jesus didn't exist, previously. However, Jesus Christ is called in Revelation, the Lamb Slain [read crucified] Before the Foundation of the World. That is, there was a plan from the very beginning, and the *Person* who said, before Abraham was, I Am, was in on the plan. (It's complicated, Gene Edwards goes a long way toward explaining it in Christ Before Creation, but don't bother).

Another little aside, as you brough up Genesis. I used to wonder why we have two creation stories in Genesis. The one day it hit me. The first creation story is about the formation of man(kind), through evolution, "God" was working on getting the body right. Part of this formulating was seeing most of the TV series by Spencer Wells, The Journey of Man (actually the TV program further confirmed my idea). Wells is a genetic archeologist. But about 50,000 years ago, man(kind) had a quantum leap explosion in intelligence. Why? When God got the body as he wanted it, through tinkering with evolution (God left himself a back door into operating in-the-world, anonymously, quantum physics), we then have the second creation story. In this one God breathed into Adam the breath of life, God's own being, and the 'animal' Adam became the God-created man Adam. OK, just a little more. There is an ~undercurrent~ of a living hidden tradition in the Bible. There is a curious character that appears in the Abraham story, Melchi-zedek, or Melchi-the-Zaddik (or Tzaddik). It is said he was not born and didn't die. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. And the NT book of Hebrews explains Melchizedek a little more, it says Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

But Christians believe the Bible is history, the Bible isn't history. The Jews knew the OT/Tanakh wasn't history, the Jewish sages knew. It's a lot of teaching stories, crafted, plus allegory. So Christians have a lot to learn from Jews, but Christians think they have it all correct, because the puzzle fits so nicely together.

Gurdjieff said the ~Jesus-story~ was a play, a living crafted drama.

Wow, I think I replied to this without reading it, hehe. I'll check out the 'Melchi-zedek, or Melchi-the-Zaddik (or Tzaddik)' stuff when I get a chance. Thanks.

Yes, interestingly, the Greek root for history is "historía (Ancient Greek: ἱστορία, romanized: historíā, lit. 'inquiry, knowledge from inquiry, or judge')."

Once Realized, the bell cannot be unrung, and to Know rings clear from depths of Being ITself. People get ridiculed, persecuted, banned from society and crucified for such 'blasphemy' sometimes. It happens. Just look at the Bible, or those drunks sitting and laughing by the road in Chinese paintings, ... or other history of consensus-trance daily life.