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Post by zendancer on Jan 8, 2024 13:56:15 GMT -5
People start searching for the truth for many reasons, but, essentially, it's because THIS, as a particular human, wants to understand something that doesn't make sense. Some people have numerous questions whereas other people have only one significant question, and some people have no questions at all, but all three groups can have one or more realizations that inform the mind about "what's going on" existentially. Here are some examples of what can happen to people in each group:
1. Using myself as an example of the first group, I had dozens and dozens of specific existential questions about things that did not make sense. I wondered what could explain the observer paradoxes in QM?, what a subatomic particle actually IS (the thing in itself)?, is there a Supreme Being?, what could explain the changing definition of art and beauty?, is there a heaven or hell?, What could explain the miracle stories in almost every religion?, etc. After I discovered eastern spiritual traditions, the list got longer with questions like, What is enlightenment? How does someone attain an enlightened state of mind? What is the answer to the Mu koan? How does someone "drop off body and mind" (something claimed as possible in the Zen tradition)?, etc. I contemplated some of these questions for twenty years without finding any answers. Then, I started a meditation exercise to relieve business-related stress, and almost immediately (within two weeks) began having realizations that informed the mind about specific issues. All of my questions were highly specific, and during the next fifteen years there were countless realizations that spontaneously occurred that answered all of my questions, and ultimately resulted in peace of mind. I had dozens of questions and dozens of realizations before I understood everything I wanted to understand. Along the way I discovered that the same process of contemplating what one wants to know can also answer questions that are NOT existential in nature, and those kinds of realizations are more like the "eureka" insights associated with mathematical and scientific inquiries. The process for finding answers to both existential and non-existential conundrums seems to involve three steps: (1) stating what one wants to know, (2) mulling the issue over intellectually, and (3) shifting attention away from the issue until a sudden realization resolves the issue.
2. Someone I know in the second group (people who only have one major question) was a man who had no existential questions until he heard people talking about non-duality. He was perplexed because he had no idea what those people were talking about. To help him understand, one his acquaintances gave him a copy of TPON and one other book about ND. He read those books, but still didn't understand, so he walked around contemplating the issue. Several months later, right out of the blue, he suddenly realized that THIS is "what is" and that THIS is all there is, and that one realization, alone, changed him completely. He never had a CC or any other realizations other than that, but that realization was enough to give him peace of mind and clarity. He said that it also eliminated negative thoughts about himself from the past and changed many other thinking patterns. For him, it was once and done.
3. The third group is best exemplified by Paul Morgan-Somers because he wasn't searching for anything, and didn't have any questions. Nevertheless, one day he felt spontaneously compelled to sit down and become silent, and BOOM! He fell into the ocean of THIS and was astonished by what he discovered. He left home, lived in a monastery for a while, and every time he became internally silent, he had more insights into the nature of THIS.
A possible fourth group of people are perhaps exemplified by people like Rupert Spira. I don't know his full story, but what I've heard him say on various videos is that he sat in meditation for about thirty years, and one day woke up. I don't know if he had any specific questions, but if he did, he hasn't mentioned it. I also don't know what kind of meditative activity he engaged in, but judging by what other people in this category have said, apparently staying in a state of non-conceptual awareness for a sustained period of time with or without questioning can lead to awakening.
Satch may also fall into the Rupert Spira category because he claims that he did a mantra meditation for about thirty years, and suddenly had a huge awakening. He can respond and explain whether his meditation involved contemplating any particular questions.
I assume that the Dogen approach of "just sitting" in silence with no expectations (and perhaps no questions) may also fall into this category. From what I remember, Dogen, himself, had many questions, but I've forgotten what they were and perhaps Zazeniac can fill in the details.
Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list?
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Post by inavalan on Jan 8, 2024 18:41:30 GMT -5
... The process for finding answers to both existential and non-existential conundrums seems to involve three steps: (1) stating what one wants to know, (2) mulling the issue over intellectually, and (3) shifting attention away from the issue until a sudden realization resolves the issue. ... This has some resemblance to what I do: (1) I usually start with something that attracted my attention, from my awake existence or from a dream recall. (2) I don't look at it intellectually at all, but only intuitively, from an optimum light trance, being careful to minimize the distortions caused by my beliefs and expectations. (3) I deepen my interpretation by accessing my inner guidance, iteratively getting deeper and deeper interpretations as deep as I can go; this concludes with a guidance. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 8, 2024 19:52:25 GMT -5
Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list? Only ever met one group one time in person that was about an interest in these topics, and none of them characterized themselves as finders. I'd say from every day life that there are these matters of degree, and I think that some of the more conventional institutions that promote marriage and family live out certain shadows of the existential truth. When I was younger the idea of living paycheck-to-paycheck with a maxed out mortgage didn't make any sense to me, but I see that differently now. A householder who's all-in and doing the best they can having optimized their material life is presented with a certain opportunity, and I respect that more and more as time goes on. It's not enlightenment, but it has the potential to be a sort of .. "enlightened living".  This matter-of-degree can be sensed in day-to-day interactions, with ordinary people. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 9, 2024 20:47:46 GMT -5
Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list? Yes. Suffering. Over the years I've heard of many who have had life altering experiences and spiritual realization through suffering. Some think suffering is all about a negative mind set. And of course they are right, but even still, for others it becomes a vehicle leading to Peace. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 10, 2024 2:01:01 GMT -5
Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list? Yes. Suffering. Over the years I've heard of many who have had life altering experiences and spiritual realization through suffering. Some think suffering is all about a negative mind set. And of course they are right, but even still, for others it becomes a vehicle leading to Peace.This reminds of Winston's eventual realization that he's loving Big Brother (George Orwell's "1984"). link- "But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."
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Post by Gopal on Jan 10, 2024 3:38:10 GMT -5
People start searching for the truth for many reasons, but, essentially, it's because THIS, as a particular human, wants to understand something that doesn't make sense. Some people have numerous questions whereas other people have only one significant question, and some people have no questions at all, but all three groups can have one or more realizations that inform the mind about "what's going on" existentially. Here are some examples of what can happen to people in each group: 1. Using myself as an example of the first group, I had dozens and dozens of specific existential questions about things that did not make sense. I wondered what could explain the observer paradoxes in QM?, what a subatomic particle actually IS (the thing in itself)?, is there a Supreme Being?, what could explain the changing definition of art and beauty?, is there a heaven or hell?, What could explain the miracle stories in almost every religion?, etc. After I discovered eastern spiritual traditions, the list got longer with questions like, What is enlightenment? How does someone attain an enlightened state of mind? What is the answer to the Mu koan? How does someone "drop off body and mind" (something claimed as possible in the Zen tradition)?, etc. I contemplated some of these questions for twenty years without finding any answers. Then, I started a meditation exercise to relieve business-related stress, and almost immediately (within two weeks) began having realizations that informed the mind about specific issues. All of my questions were highly specific, and during the next fifteen years there were countless realizations that spontaneously occurred that answered all of my questions, and ultimately resulted in peace of mind. I had dozens of questions and dozens of realizations before I understood everything I wanted to understand. Along the way I discovered that the same process of contemplating what one wants to know can also answer questions that are NOT existential in nature, and those kinds of realizations are more like the "eureka" insights associated with mathematical and scientific inquiries. The process for finding answers to both existential and non-existential conundrums seems to involve three steps: (1) stating what one wants to know, (2) mulling the issue over intellectually, and (3) shifting attention away from the issue until a sudden realization resolves the issue. 2. Someone I know in the second group (people who only have one major question) was a man who had no existential questions until he heard people talking about non-duality. He was perplexed because he had no idea what those people were talking about. To help him understand, one his acquaintances gave him a copy of TPON and one other book about ND. He read those books, but still didn't understand, so he walked around contemplating the issue. Several months later, right out of the blue, he suddenly realized that THIS is "what is" and that THIS is all there is, and that one realization, alone, changed him completely. He never had a CC or any other realizations other than that, but that realization was enough to give him peace of mind and clarity. He said that it also eliminated negative thoughts about himself from the past and changed many other thinking patterns. For him, it was once and done. 3. The third group is best exemplified by Paul Morgan-Somers because he wasn't searching for anything, and didn't have any questions. Nevertheless, one day he felt spontaneously compelled to sit down and become silent, and BOOM! He fell into the ocean of THIS and was astonished by what he discovered. He left home, lived in a monastery for a while, and every time he became internally silent, he had more insights into the nature of THIS. A possible fourth group of people are perhaps exemplified by people like Rupert Spira. I don't know his full story, but what I've heard him say on various videos is that he sat in meditation for about thirty years, and one day woke up. I don't know if he had any specific questions, but if he did, he hasn't mentioned it. I also don't know what kind of meditative activity he engaged in, but judging by what other people in this category have said, apparently staying in a state of non-conceptual awareness for a sustained period of time with or without questioning can lead to awakening. Satch may also fall into the Rupert Spira category because he claims that he did a mantra meditation for about thirty years, and suddenly had a huge awakening. He can respond and explain whether his meditation involved contemplating any particular questions. I assume that the Dogen approach of "just sitting" in silence with no expectations (and perhaps no questions) may also fall into this category. From what I remember, Dogen, himself, had many questions, but I've forgotten what they were and perhaps Zazeniac can fill in the details. Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list? People search for the truth to end their suffering. And the truth is simple. When we chase something other the present moment, we are in a trap, we are creating problems for ourselves to solve, and they can never be solved. CHASING OTHER THAN WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEM. ONE HAS TO DIRECTLY SEE THIS. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2024 8:40:40 GMT -5
Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list? Yes. Suffering. Over the years I've heard of many who have had life altering experiences and spiritual realization through suffering. Some think suffering is all about a negative mind set. And of course they are right, but even still, for others it becomes a vehicle leading to Peace. Good point. I think it's been mentioned that the number one state of mind most highly correlated with spiritual experiences and insights is "abject despair." Some people under extreme psychological pressure have big breakthrough realizations and people like Tolle, Satyam Nadeen, and many others come to mind. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2024 8:43:17 GMT -5
People start searching for the truth for many reasons, but, essentially, it's because THIS, as a particular human, wants to understand something that doesn't make sense. Some people have numerous questions whereas other people have only one significant question, and some people have no questions at all, but all three groups can have one or more realizations that inform the mind about "what's going on" existentially. Here are some examples of what can happen to people in each group: 1. Using myself as an example of the first group, I had dozens and dozens of specific existential questions about things that did not make sense. I wondered what could explain the observer paradoxes in QM?, what a subatomic particle actually IS (the thing in itself)?, is there a Supreme Being?, what could explain the changing definition of art and beauty?, is there a heaven or hell?, What could explain the miracle stories in almost every religion?, etc. After I discovered eastern spiritual traditions, the list got longer with questions like, What is enlightenment? How does someone attain an enlightened state of mind? What is the answer to the Mu koan? How does someone "drop off body and mind" (something claimed as possible in the Zen tradition)?, etc. I contemplated some of these questions for twenty years without finding any answers. Then, I started a meditation exercise to relieve business-related stress, and almost immediately (within two weeks) began having realizations that informed the mind about specific issues. All of my questions were highly specific, and during the next fifteen years there were countless realizations that spontaneously occurred that answered all of my questions, and ultimately resulted in peace of mind. I had dozens of questions and dozens of realizations before I understood everything I wanted to understand. Along the way I discovered that the same process of contemplating what one wants to know can also answer questions that are NOT existential in nature, and those kinds of realizations are more like the "eureka" insights associated with mathematical and scientific inquiries. The process for finding answers to both existential and non-existential conundrums seems to involve three steps: (1) stating what one wants to know, (2) mulling the issue over intellectually, and (3) shifting attention away from the issue until a sudden realization resolves the issue. 2. Someone I know in the second group (people who only have one major question) was a man who had no existential questions until he heard people talking about non-duality. He was perplexed because he had no idea what those people were talking about. To help him understand, one his acquaintances gave him a copy of TPON and one other book about ND. He read those books, but still didn't understand, so he walked around contemplating the issue. Several months later, right out of the blue, he suddenly realized that THIS is "what is" and that THIS is all there is, and that one realization, alone, changed him completely. He never had a CC or any other realizations other than that, but that realization was enough to give him peace of mind and clarity. He said that it also eliminated negative thoughts about himself from the past and changed many other thinking patterns. For him, it was once and done. 3. The third group is best exemplified by Paul Morgan-Somers because he wasn't searching for anything, and didn't have any questions. Nevertheless, one day he felt spontaneously compelled to sit down and become silent, and BOOM! He fell into the ocean of THIS and was astonished by what he discovered. He left home, lived in a monastery for a while, and every time he became internally silent, he had more insights into the nature of THIS. A possible fourth group of people are perhaps exemplified by people like Rupert Spira. I don't know his full story, but what I've heard him say on various videos is that he sat in meditation for about thirty years, and one day woke up. I don't know if he had any specific questions, but if he did, he hasn't mentioned it. I also don't know what kind of meditative activity he engaged in, but judging by what other people in this category have said, apparently staying in a state of non-conceptual awareness for a sustained period of time with or without questioning can lead to awakening. Satch may also fall into the Rupert Spira category because he claims that he did a mantra meditation for about thirty years, and suddenly had a huge awakening. He can respond and explain whether his meditation involved contemplating any particular questions. I assume that the Dogen approach of "just sitting" in silence with no expectations (and perhaps no questions) may also fall into this category. From what I remember, Dogen, himself, had many questions, but I've forgotten what they were and perhaps Zazeniac can fill in the details. Are there any other general categories that anyone thinks should be added to this list? People search for the truth to end their suffering. And the truth is simple. When we chase something other the present moment, we are in a trap, we are creating problems for ourselves to solve, and they can never be solved. CHASING OTHER THAN WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEM. ONE HAS TO DIRECTLY SEE THIS. Yes, I used to think that most people, like this character, were motivated solely by curiosity, but I now think that a desire to escape suffering may be a much more common motivator. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 10, 2024 9:56:34 GMT -5
People search for the truth to end their suffering. And the truth is simple. When we chase something other the present moment, we are in a trap, we are creating problems for ourselves to solve, and they can never be solved. CHASING OTHER THAN WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEM. ONE HAS TO DIRECTLY SEE THIS. Yes, I used to think that most people, like this character, were motivated solely by curiosityhyy, but I now think that a desire to escape suffering may be a much more common motivator. Adyashanti talks about some who facing eminent death discovering the Truth. One story is about being asked to visit a lady nearing death. He asked “Do you know who you are?” And she replied “No”. He said something like “Now would be a good time to find out”. He visited her several days later and upon seeing her said “You know!” And she smiled broadly and said “Yes”. Apparently had a remarkably beautiful death experience in the days after that and then died quite peacefully. I would also say the anytime that This doesn’t know who they are there is a fundamental discontent within the human experience. Even your questions were born out discontent (a kind of suffering), no? |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 10, 2024 10:21:26 GMT -5
People search for the truth to end their suffering. And the truth is simple. When we chase something other the present moment, we are in a trap, we are creating problems for ourselves to solve, and they can never be solved. CHASING OTHER THAN WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEM. ONE HAS TO DIRECTLY SEE THIS. Yes, I used to think that most people, like this character, were motivated solely by curiosity, but I now think that a desire to escape suffering may be a much more common motivator. People who die to get rid of the suffering will search for the truth. No one would do it just out of curiosity; even if they continued, they wouldn't go that far. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2024 10:29:29 GMT -5
Yes, I used to think that most people, like this character, were motivated solely by curiosityhyy, but I now think that a desire to escape suffering may be a much more common motivator. Adyashanti talks about some who facing eminent death discovering the Truth. One story is about being asked to visit a lady nearing death. He asked “Do you know who you are?” And she replied “No”. He said something like “Now would be a good time to find out”. He visited her several days later and upon seeing her said “You know!” And she smiled broadly and said “Yes”. Apparently had a remarkably beautiful death experience in the days after that and then died quite peacefully. I would also say the anytime that This doesn’t know who they are there is a fundamental discontent within the human experience. Even your questions were born out discontent (a kind of suffering), no? I never thought of questioning as a form of suffering. It was more a matter of wanting to understand things that didn't make sense or seemed paradoxical. If one doesn't understand how to resolve a particular math problem, for example, there would generally be an idea that the problem could eventually be resolved by learning a bit more. I was relatively optimistic for many years because I thought that the questions would sooner or later get resolved. What I didn't know at that time was that thinking would never provide the kinds of answers I was searching for. On this forum we generally discuss existential questions and issues, but the same approach to question resolution promoted by Rinzai Zen people (and theoretical physicists) can be used for resolving conventional questions as well. I was once presented with a conundrum that was identical in nature to a Zen koan but was not existential in nature. I drove around for several days wondering how a particular truth claim about a financial matter could possibly be true, and suddenly a huge life-changing realization occurred that changed my understanding of financial issues totally. This is why I tell people that the same approach can be used for finding out anything one wants to know. People think of existential koans, such as the Mu koan, and many times they don't realize that personal koans of a conventional nature can be resolved in the same way by stating the issue that needs to be understood, mulling it over, and then shifting attention away from the issue using some meditative activity until the subconscious suddenly reveals the answer. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2024 10:31:45 GMT -5
Yes, I used to think that most people, like this character, were motivated solely by curiosity, but I now think that a desire to escape suffering may be a much more common motivator. People who die to get rid of the suffering will search for the truth. No one would do it just out of curiosity; even if they continued, they wouldn't go that far. Many people would disagree with this because if this were true, many major scientific discoveries would not have been made. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 10, 2024 10:39:55 GMT -5
Adyashanti talks about some who facing eminent death discovering the Truth. One story is about being asked to visit a lady nearing death. He asked “Do you know who you are?” And she replied “No”. He said something like “Now would be a good time to find out”. He visited her several days later and upon seeing her said “You know!” And she smiled broadly and said “Yes”. Apparently had a remarkably beautiful death experience in the days after that and then died quite peacefully. I would also say the anytime that This doesn’t know who they are there is a fundamental discontent within the human experience. Even your questions were born out discontent (a kind of suffering), no? I never thought of questioning as a form of suffering. It was more a matter of wanting to understand things that didn't make sense or seemed paradoxical. If one doesn't understand how to resolve a particular math problem, for example, there would generally be an idea that the problem could eventually be resolved by learning a bit more. I was relatively optimistic for many years because I thought that the questions would sooner or later get resolved. What I didn't know at that time was that thinking would never provide the kinds of answers I was searching for. On this forum we generally discuss existential questions and issues, but the same approach to question resolution promoted by Rinzai Zen people (and theoretical physicists) can be used for resolving conventional questions as well. I was once presented with a conundrum that was identical in nature to a Zen koan but was not existential in nature. I drove around for several days wondering how a particular truth claim about a financial matter could possibly be true, and suddenly a huge life-changing realization occurred that changed my understanding of financial issues totally. This is why I tell people that the same approach can be used for finding out anything one wants to know. People think of existential koans, such as the Mu koan, and many times they don't realize that personal koans of a conventional nature can be resolved in the same way by stating the issue that needs to be understood, mulling it over, and then shifting attention away from the issue using some meditative activity until the subconscious suddenly reveals the answer. What I meant was that you were not content with the status quo. It drove you to seek answers. That discontent was the Self trying to understand its predicament. I see that as a form of suffering, albeit a very subtle one. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 10, 2024 11:04:38 GMT -5
I never thought of questioning as a form of suffering. It was more a matter of wanting to understand things that didn't make sense or seemed paradoxical. If one doesn't understand how to resolve a particular math problem, for example, there would generally be an idea that the problem could eventually be resolved by learning a bit more. I was relatively optimistic for many years because I thought that the questions would sooner or later get resolved. What I didn't know at that time was that thinking would never provide the kinds of answers I was searching for. On this forum we generally discuss existential questions and issues, but the same approach to question resolution promoted by Rinzai Zen people (and theoretical physicists) can be used for resolving conventional questions as well. I was once presented with a conundrum that was identical in nature to a Zen koan but was not existential in nature. I drove around for several days wondering how a particular truth claim about a financial matter could possibly be true, and suddenly a huge life-changing realization occurred that changed my understanding of financial issues totally. This is why I tell people that the same approach can be used for finding out anything one wants to know. People think of existential koans, such as the Mu koan, and many times they don't realize that personal koans of a conventional nature can be resolved in the same way by stating the issue that needs to be understood, mulling it over, and then shifting attention away from the issue using some meditative activity until the subconscious suddenly reveals the answer. What I meant was that you were not content with the status quo. It drove you to seek answers. That discontent was the Self trying to understand its predicament. I see that as a form of suffering, albeit a very subtle one. Perhaps so, but it certainly feels a lot more IMpersonal than someone who's psychologically suffering from negative thoughts about self or wanting to escape some hellish personal situation, etc. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 10, 2024 20:00:58 GMT -5
People who die to get rid of the suffering will search for the truth. No one would do it just out of curiosity; even if they continued, they wouldn't go that far. Many people would disagree with this because if this were true, many major scientific discoveries would not have been made. People can do scientific discovery out of passion and interest but no one will search the existential truth when their life is going smoothly. |
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This matter-of-degree can be sensed in day-to-day interactions, with ordinary people. 