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Post by inavalan on Oct 7, 2023 12:29:07 GMT -5
Why one has to silent their internal dialogue?Is it not the only way we differ from animals? I have my internal dialog going on but that's really not the problem for me. Can't we able to differentiate the mere internal dialog from suffering ? For me, the new expression happens in my mind before I bring that in my coding as an expression. New creation through human happens that way. So Zendancer, internal dialog is not the problem but suffering is.It's only a problem if people believe their thoughts. It can also destroy peace of mind if it becomes incessant, a la Eckhart Tolle and others. The negative aspects of mind talk are primarily (1) stress from worry and (2) low self esteem usually generated by judging oneself harshly and accepting other peoples' negative judgements about oneself. The reason many people meditate is to reduce stress and attain some freedom from the mind. The health benefits, alone, are well documented. What you described isn't a thought problem, but an assessment and response problem. A better solution, than shutting down thinking, is to immediately address the emotional problem, reshape your thoughts in that direction, and recognize that what you perceive isn't what it is. For this you need lucidity. What you described is a nightmarish dream. If you get the lucidity to choose and proceed to meditate, ti ignore the problem, you're lucid enough to do what I suggest, and begin to solve it. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 8, 2023 11:02:34 GMT -5
Is it a loss there's no thinking in deep sleep? I think stream of consciousness is like deep sleep where the mind, ego, abates.
Those who've never held to stillness/silence might not recognize and appreciate their true nature.
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Post by lolly on Oct 8, 2023 21:31:53 GMT -5
I like De Grass Tyson's argument as to why the moon landing was noit fake.\
He says they worked very hard so they could land a man on the moon but they couldn't quite figure out the engineering, so NASA approached Armstrong and said, We can't get you to the surface, but we still have to fake it so the Russians think we put a man on the moon. We've got the best effect guys from Hollywood to create the fake landing. Armstrong agrees.
The Hollywood guys tried to construct a convincing fake but they couldn't recreate the lunar surface scene in a way that looked real, so they said to NASA, Look guys, it's impossible to recreate the lunar surface realistically, but we have a solution - to fake the landing convincingly we have to shoot on location.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 9, 2023 11:59:33 GMT -5
Disclaimer, you don't have to read the whole, unless you are bored. I can't tell you exactly where it went wrong, if it went wrong, not saying it went wrong, exactly. It could possibly be only for zazeniac, definitely not inavalan. Pretty-much a nod to ZD, kind of obvious. Yes, nice. I've been considering a thread, can't put my finger exactly on it, but something like this. "Man is the measure of all things". How can a man escape his own subjectivity? Can man enter-in-to ontology? Or is man always and only at the mercy of epistemology? Kant said we can't know the "thing in itself". The thing always passes through and is filtered via our own subjectivity. 2,000 + years ago they measured by a cubit. This is from your elbow to the tip of your finger. But this is different for everyone. There has to be a standard. In the US I remember, about 7th grade they told us (in math) the S was eventually going on the metric system, so we had better learn metric. Hasn't happened yet. Ya know the pi thingy, it can never be exact, because it is a never ending decimal. You can go into a hardware store and buy a tape measure. It works pretty well, but you still cannot be exact. After all, a tape measure is just a copy of another tape measure, who's to say what the first tape measure was? What if the manufacturing guy had a bad Friday, and he didn't set the tape-measure-making-thingy exactly right. Carpenters rule, measure twice, cut once. I remember hearing carpenters working. You have one guy on the scaffold, he tells the cut guy his measurement, and usually adds, either, leave the line or saw the line. Now his tape measure goes down to 1/16 of an inch, so by say cut or leave the line, he's getting it down to 1/32 of an inch. That's pretty good. But what if the guy on the ground has a Kline tape measure and they guy on the scaffold has DeWalt, where the manufacturing guy had a bad Friday. Then there is necessarily a 1/64 difference. Another thing I learned, carpenters used to caulk their work, and the painters just painted. Somehow it evolved to the painters caulk and paint. This doesn't seem fair, the carpenters can cheat a little, are are not responsible for their slight errors. I once saw a homeowner complain that the painter didn't paint the back of a piece of molding in a corner. The painter asked, How do you even know I didn't paint there?!? The homeowner said, I put a mirror back there to look at it. I kid you not.  ...  Oh, my boss had an answer for everything. I was his helper for about 5-6 years when I started working on my own. Time is subjective too. We were late for an appointment once. The contractor said: You said you were going to BE HERE BY LUNCH111!!! Boss just said, "I haven't eaten lunch yet". (Which was true).  Another contractor told him once, I hope I didn't wake you up calling late last night. Boss answered, No, I had to get up to answer the phone, anyway. Boss was a big sports fan. In discussion I heard him say more than once (different occasions): I don't watch it if it's not on TV. (Before the internet). OK, last one. My first week on the job I was working with the other electrician, on a commercial job. We were running half inch conduit, putting it together with couplings. We had already discussed loose, snug and tight, that is, he told me. I asked JN (I had known him since he was about six years old, he's a few years younger than me), how tight? As tight as I can get it? JN said, yes. So, I didn't. And, some seconds later I told JN, we have a new category. Loose, snug, tight, and broke. I didn't exactly lie, but the last one wasn't the last one. Once were were working at a house. The concrete guys were doing the driveway. They finished, and left, very nice job. First, if there is any hint of rain, they lay plastic over the concrete. They didn't. An unexpected storm came up. The house didn't have gutters yet. Now this wasn't just maybe 12 feet going into a carport. This was a big house, two sides of the house, double garage and entryway down one side and down an adjacent side, about another 35 feet of parking area and turnaround. The rain pouring off the house just pitted the soft concrete under the eve of the house, down at least an inch, you could see the rocks in the concrete. And even not directly under the eves was somewhat ruined, I'd say at least 1,200 sq feet of concrete. I never did find out what they had to do to fix it, didn't go back to that house. I will put a disclaimer at the beginning.....sorry, got carried away. I'm not sure I even got to my point. I'm not sure I even have a point, yet, since this isn't an OP. Haven't nailed it down yet, still walking around it... I read a few weeks ago about a new standard for time, something to do with something happening in a certain atom of a certain element, I think, don't remember like...what I are for lunch. So, to measure means not-to-be-exact. Your boss was a funny guy! Loved his responses. He reminds me of Yogi Berra I thought of sharing some more of my history the other day, but decided not to. In light of Hamas vs Israel Saturday, and continuing, decided to. In June of 1991 I had my bonkers episode, going way off the rails, it's all exceptionally complicated, but, basically, I touched an energy that ego-self couldn't handle. I recognized it in Steve, when that happened, even felt a little responsible, I had introduced him to Dzogchen. Later also recognized it in farmer. I tried to help both, having been through very similar, but neither were interested in help. Later Sn wrote somewhat about similar experience, from what I can surmise. And you have written about similar, when you wanted to give the people who worked for you a share in your company, and your other generous-examples. But I was fearless, I felt kind of like ______, I don't know a good analogy, but totally out of character for me. I became the me I'd like to be, I felt like myself for the first time in my life. I started living on what I called Jesus-time, AKA (American)-Indian-time, took my watch off even. Complicated, again, but I quit my job. I walked into the office one morning and quit, just went back home. After that is when what I call 2 ~meta-physiological manifestations~ began. They lasted for 3 weeks, all the time when I was awake. I slept only 1-3 hours a night, that's all I needed. I could make this very long, but will not. My wife supported me at first, there were acceptable plans, then after 3 weeks she told me I had to stop everything and ask for my job back. She let me know how serious she was. So I said, I cannot ask, but you can ask the boss. So she called and asked him. He said I could come back as if nothing had happened, keep my seniority (I was 3rd in the company), keep my 2 weeks vacation per year, keep all my benefits. So I did, went back to work. That weekend was the 4th of July weekend. The ~meta-physiological manifestations~ ended, I knew they would. I went back to work as if the 3 weeks hadn't happened, one of the hardest things I've ever done. I was still "high", but started to come down. It took six months to come back to normal, to my "baseline", which was absolute hell. Ordinary, was hell compared to what-had-been. So, yes, boss was a solid good man. I only ever worked as an electrician, for him, one company for 33 years. There's a lot more about that time, I've considered a book, writing a book. I've never felt the need to explain what happened. It took me a while to put it all together, figure out what had happened. But I've been considering a book lately, been considering it more closely. But the Hamas attack on Israel relates, too complicated to get into. But this might evolve into a much bigger mess than it already is, the law of unintended consequences. Israel never backs down, never. They will not stop until they get the result they want. There are heartbreaking personal stories being told and shown. I just saw a mother who was on the phone when her children were taken as hostages. Her son told them, I'm 12, I'm too young to take. They took him. Realistically, there's not much hope for most of the hostages. But ordinary-hell eventually became just ordinary again. ....From it all, let's just say I know how important purification actually IS. And how important staying grounded is. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 2:43:39 GMT -5
Why one has to silent their internal dialogue?Is it not the only way we differ from animals? I have my internal dialog going on but that's really not the problem for me. Can't we able to differentiate the mere internal dialog from suffering ? For me, the new expression happens in my mind before I bring that in my coding as an expression. New creation through human happens that way. So Zendancer, internal dialog is not the problem but suffering is. Depends on what you mean by "problem". Is that dialog, your dialog? What is the source of it? The dialog can obscure in two different ways, and, if it does, then that's a "problem" for anyone interested in the truth. Also, for some people - as you already pointed out - the dialog itself can be a major component of their suffering. Suffering can express itself through internal dialog or outer world manifestation, but outer world manifestation and internal dialog need not to be a suffering is what my point was. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 2:46:13 GMT -5
Why one has to silent their internal dialogue?Is it not the only way we differ from animals? I have my internal dialog going on but that's really not the problem for me. Can't we able to differentiate the mere internal dialog from suffering ? For me, the new expression happens in my mind before I bring that in my coding as an expression. New creation through human happens that way. So Zendancer, internal dialog is not the problem but suffering is.It's only a problem if people believe their thoughts. It can also destroy peace of mind if it becomes incessant, a la Eckhart Tolle and others. The negative aspects of mind talk are primarily (1) stress from worry and (2) low self esteem usually generated by judging oneself harshly and accepting other peoples' negative judgements about oneself. The reason many people meditate is to reduce stress and attain some freedom from the mind. The health benefits, alone, are well documented. Because they think something is happening inside of them and something else is happening outside of them, so they try to control what's in their control to attain the peace of mind, that's their inner. But the truth is, there is no inside or outside. Everything that's happening is the same flow of movement. As I said to laughter, I repeat : Suffering can express itself through internal dialog or outer world manifestation, but outer world manifestation and internal dialog need not to be a suffering is what my point was. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 11, 2023 17:04:32 GMT -5
I like De Grass Tyson's argument as to why the moon landing was noit fake.\ He says they worked very hard so they could land a man on the moon but they couldn't quite figure out the engineering, so NASA approached Armstrong and said, We can't get you to the surface, but we still have to fake it so the Russians think we put a man on the moon. We've got the best effect guys from Hollywood to create the fake landing. Armstrong agrees. The Hollywood guys tried to construct a convincing fake but they couldn't recreate the lunar surface scene in a way that looked real, so they said to NASA, Look guys, it's impossible to recreate the lunar surface realistically, but we have a solution - to fake the landing convincingly we have to shoot on location.  .. "I dig holes and stuff .. like .. on the Moon ..." |
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Post by lolly on Oct 12, 2023 2:00:59 GMT -5
Well, at the moment it's mass planting and mulching. Mass planting is like 20 or 40 or more of the same plant, usually something that spreads - at 50 cm spacing. Closer than 50 cm makes it much harder to mulch. In this case it's dyanella tube stock so the planting is pretty fast. Just jam in a shovel, throw fertiliser in, drop in the plant, release the dirt and push down with your boot. The mulch is Arbourist chips, just a whole tree after it's been through the chipper. I have to take it from the street up into the back, so I fill a trashcan and barrow it up the bank (I have a plank to go up a retaining wall) to mulch in the tightly planted spaced - pour it out between the plants. For the open section, which is like a walkway through the garden, I just barrow loads, dump and rake. I still have to get down and pull it away from the base of any plants there.
It's the sweetest because it's not heavy work, lots of shoveling barrow fulls, but it's not heavy material and the barrow isn't hard to push even though it's up hill. It's perfect monotony - doing the same thing moving the same way. The endurance and the heat still tires you out though. I ended the day watering in and feeling happy.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 1, 2024 11:38:35 GMT -5
I had to look down 5 pages to find a place to put this article. It's short, an excerpt of another article, link given at the end. As preface, a few weeks ago I heard author John Green on NPR, there was a discussion of the inability of some people to be able to visualize, in the mind, anything. This is kind of the opposite of autism, Temple Grandin realized, and wrote a book on Thinking in Pictures, she realized, being autistic, people with autism think visually, in images. (I've seen her describe how she has a conversation with people. She takes their words, then translates them into images in her mind, to understand. Then to reply she has to turn her reply in images, into words for the other person. I find that process absolutely fascinating). She realized also while growing up around animals, that animals also think in pictures. For this reason, to help alleviate suffering, she has designed half the livestock yards/slaughter houses in the US, she understands animals. (Her PhD is in animal husbandry). OK, while I'm here, Gurdjieff called this, the language of form, or mentation by form. Now, he didn't explain it, but in the introduction to Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson, From the Author, he says wrote the book according to entirely new principles, the language of form. So, reading Grandin's books and hearing her speak, I immediately connected her means of thinking, to the language of form. (No charge for that part). Now, I had heard of this inability to be able to visualize in one's mind, previously, but what was unusual to me was hearing John Green, an author, say that he himself cannot visualize images in his mind. So what he writes is completely conceptual, words alone (IOW, he doesn't write from the standpoint of trying to create images in the readers mind, because he doesn't even know what that's like). But the article speaks about other mental differences besides some people not having a voice in the head, or not being about to see images in the mind. That intro got longer than expected. My plan was to vacation from ST's for 3 months, but I just wanted to share these two articles (the other being on the AI thread). |
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.. "I dig holes and stuff .. like .. on the Moon ..."