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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 21:46:43 GMT -5
This thread might not survive long, maybe about eight hours. I thought of a good analogy. [...] The pain of a punch in the nose is as "real" as it gets. The model of the hand, the nose, face and the body is, to say the least incredibly useful .. but not "real" in that same sense. As far as "truth", in the relative sense is concerned, there is nothing controversial about what you've written. But the existential truth, is non-relative. It takes the entirety of eternity and all of creation to conspire to the pain of a broken nose. That is the existential truth. A shadow of putting the existential truth in these terms is something you've posted in the past ".. to bake an apple pie ..." or "... to hammer a nail ...". But even those presentations are from a dualstic-thingness perspective. You have to think. Bigger. Much .. Bigger ... And much more fluidly. A counterpoint... pain is no more real than a thought. Both are experience, both appear in consciousness/awareness, both are fleeting. Depending on your definition of thought, you could say that pain is also thought, mind stuff. If you like Niz, he said that what comes and goes isn't real. But, I can see how if someone where overly attached to intellectual knowing, or thought they could attain some kind of ultimate truth about ultimate Reality via that knowing, then your pointing to the contrast between thought and sensation could be useful. He "has to think"? 🤔 |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 7, 2023 21:57:43 GMT -5
Niz, he said that what comes and goes isn't realIsn't real means it doesn't last Eternally. Niz understood that only the Eternal lasts Eternally and qualifies as Real. Everything else is fleeting and therefore qualifies as unreal in comparison. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 22:09:23 GMT -5
Niz, he said that what comes and goes isn't realIsn't real means it doesn't last Eternally. Niz understood that only the Eternal lasts Eternally and qualifies as Real. Everything else is fleeting and therefore qualifies as unreal in comparison. Yes, that's the part of his teaching that I was thinking of. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 22:24:13 GMT -5
A few snippets from I Am That, from searching for "comes and goes"...
- What comes and goes has no Being
- They [events] are all strung on the basic idea: 'I am the body'. But even this is a mental state and does not last. It comes and goes like all other states. The illusion of being the body-mind is there, only because it is not investigated.
- Experience is of change, it comes and goes. Reality is not an event, it cannot be experienced. It is not perceivable in the same way as an event is perceivable. If you wait for an event to take place, for the coming of reality, you will wait for ever, for reality neither comes nor goes.
- If you seek the Immutable, go beyond experience.
- What comes and goes is experience with its duality of pain and pleasure. Bliss is not to be known. One is always bliss, but never blissful. Bliss is not an attribute.
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Post by laughter on Aug 8, 2023 19:56:27 GMT -5
The pain of a punch in the nose is as "real" as it gets. The model of the hand, the nose, face and the body is, to say the least incredibly useful .. but not "real" in that same sense. As far as "truth", in the relative sense is concerned, there is nothing controversial about what you've written. But the existential truth, is non-relative. It takes the entirety of eternity and all of creation to conspire to the pain of a broken nose. That is the existential truth. A shadow of putting the existential truth in these terms is something you've posted in the past ".. to bake an apple pie ..." or "... to hammer a nail ...". But even those presentations are from a dualstic-thingness perspective. You have to think. Bigger. Much .. Bigger ... And much more fluidly. A counterpoint... pain is no more real than a thought. Both are experience, both appear in consciousness/awareness, both are fleeting. Depending on your definition of thought, you could say that pain is also thought, mind stuff. If you like Niz, he said that what comes and goes isn't real. But, I can see how if someone where overly attached to intellectual knowing, or thought they could attain some kind of ultimate truth about ultimate Reality via that knowing, then your pointing to the contrast between thought and sensation could be useful. He "has to think"? 🤔 There's a push/pull here, because I don't disagree with what you say, and I won't respond with any decomposition or finer modeling. We can only point to "reality". The pain is "real", in the moment, as in, it is undeniable. For someone attached to sensation, you can point out that it is transitory. For someone detached from sensation ... well.  |
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