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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2023 8:02:10 GMT -5
The thing is most have had the experience of being on autopilot when washing the dishes or doing something else . This doesn't negate that one is washing the dishes just because one isn't consciously thinking that . One doesn't have to pay attention to themselves 24/7 to reflect an individual self to be an individual . The foundation is set already in place to facilitate that motion . If you're not consciously thinking that you're washing the dishes which would be a very unlikely way of operating, then the dishes are just being washed. If we had to consciously think about every single thing we were doing life would be mentally exhausting. Yet some people do it deliberately and call it mindfulness. 😃 Real practice is not conscious thinking. It has zero to do with thinking. You are absolutely correct here though, it would be exhausting, and superfluous. You can't find mindfulness defined as you describe it here, anywhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 8:31:14 GMT -5
If you're not consciously thinking that you're washing the dishes which would be a very unlikely way of operating, then the dishes are just being washed. If we had to consciously think about every single thing we were doing life would be mentally exhausting. Yet some people do it deliberately and call it mindfulness. 😃 Real practice is not conscious thinking. It has zero to do with thinking. You are absolutely correct here though, it would be exhausting, and superfluous. You can't find mindfulness defined as you describe it here, anywhere. Try Google. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 8:35:46 GMT -5
Here you go. This is the first one that appeared on Google for mindfulness search. "Mindfulness is the practice of being fully present and aware of your surroundings and what you’re doing......" www.coursera.org/articles/what-is-mindfulness? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2023 9:07:27 GMT -5
Real practice is not conscious thinking. It has zero to do with thinking. You are absolutely correct here though, it would be exhausting, and superfluous. You can't find mindfulness defined as you describe it here, anywhere. Try Google. If you find it, it's incorrect. Mindfulness does not mean thinking about what occurs. Buddha's Fourfold Mindfulness, and that should be the standard, is not about thinking about the body, the feelings, bodily actions. It is (#4) about pondering or contemplating the dharma, but I don't think that means in the ordinary sense, simply abstract rumination. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 9:15:31 GMT -5
If you find it, it's incorrect. Mindfulness does not mean thinking about what occurs. Buddha's Fourfold Mindfulness, and that should be the standard, is not about thinking about the body, the feelings, bodily actions. It is (#4) about pondering or contemplating the dharma, but I don't think that means in the ordinary sense, simply abstract rumination. It's the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html |
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Post by tenka on Aug 5, 2023 13:55:04 GMT -5
When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you. Why would that be? Any answer that made sense with a foundation that supports it would be fine with me . I don't have to agree with any answer given, butt at present I have had no answers in relation to what I have spoken of . If there is the suggestion that there is no self referential awareness when one gets up to prepare food then it makes no sense to me because the thought of that does reflect the self that requires food. This isn't an action that happens when there is no association had to the self. I have simply asked why would anyone behave in such a way, whether it's making dinner or washing the dishes afterwards . I don't think it's a question that would create anything other than a clear and precise answer tbh if there was the foundation to back it up. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 20:54:13 GMT -5
I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you. Why would that be? Any answer that made sense with a foundation that supports it would be fine with me . I don't have to agree with any answer given, butt at present I have had no answers in relation to what I have spoken of . If there is the suggestion that there is no self referential awareness when one gets up to prepare food then it makes no sense to me because the thought of that does reflect the self that requires food. This isn't an action that happens when there is no association had to the self. I have simply asked why would anyone behave in such a way, whether it's making dinner or washing the dishes afterwards . I don't think it's a question that would create anything other than a clear and precise answer tbh if there was the foundation to back it up. You haven't understood what I said about identity and non-identity, nor will you understand anything I say because you have no direct experience. You are in the state of ignorance so it's not possible to satisfy you with any answer on this subject. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 6, 2023 1:35:36 GMT -5
When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you.  |
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Post by tenka on Aug 6, 2023 3:39:57 GMT -5
Why would that be? Any answer that made sense with a foundation that supports it would be fine with me . I don't have to agree with any answer given, butt at present I have had no answers in relation to what I have spoken of . If there is the suggestion that there is no self referential awareness when one gets up to prepare food then it makes no sense to me because the thought of that does reflect the self that requires food. This isn't an action that happens when there is no association had to the self. I have simply asked why would anyone behave in such a way, whether it's making dinner or washing the dishes afterwards . I don't think it's a question that would create anything other than a clear and precise answer tbh if there was the foundation to back it up. You haven't understood what I said about identity and non-identity, nor will you understand anything I say because you have no direct experience. You are in the state of ignorance so it's not possible to satisfy you with any answer on this subject. It's because of my direct experience I say what I say. Non identity reflects that one doesn't identify with wanting food nor wanting clean dishes. For some reason you seem to think that a non identified peep can behave in a manner that still reflects a conditioned self. It's not true. This is why I say that you have to watch the behaviours of other's who proclaim this and that about themselves. I am still open for you to explain why certain behaviours can be ongoing when supposedly there are no self identified relations to that which is ongoing. You haven't explained this to me. I am for the record more than capable of understanding a premise that is put forward. You don't have to satisfy me with what that would be, butt I do need a premise put forward to comment on . Do you understand what I have said in regards to non identity and not behaving in the same manner as one identified. You see when I was in a state of non identification . The world didn't exist for me. The carrots and dishes didn't exist either. That's why it makes no sense to me whatsoever. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2023 11:59:21 GMT -5
When peeps speak about arising in awareness it just doesn't make sense to me .. How does an individual just arise in awareness? You are not really addressing what I am asking in relation to why one would wash the dishes in the first place. There has to be an association had between what you believe you are and what relations there are for the requirement of a clean dish and some chopped carrots. This relationship is built upon self awareness . Doing all these things when there is no one here doing anything just doesn't make any sense at all . Could you answer why there would be the requirement for these things to be done and no one is doing them .. It's impossible to not have the association as a foundation in place fundamentally .. All this arising in awareness doesn't bypass this. I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2023 11:59:39 GMT -5
I am unable to give an answer that will satisfy you. |
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Post by lolly on Aug 8, 2023 4:12:41 GMT -5
I think a sense of self and a belief in 'me' are different things, and if you pay attention to doing dishes, there is only an experience of dishes being done. There isn't a real-lived experience of a doer doing, but you're still being aware of doing the dishes. One can do them distractedly, but then you might break one. Mindfulness isn't so much as thinking about doing the dishes, but being conscious of the reality as it is momentarily. Because we get swept off by mind and lose contact with real lived experience, it feels like we notice that we've lost consciousness of the moment in which we live, and remember,'this is how it is'.
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Post by laughter on Aug 8, 2023 20:04:08 GMT -5
I think a sense of self and a belief in 'me' are different things, and if you pay attention to doing dishes, there is only an experience of dishes being done. There isn't a real-lived experience of a doer doing, but you're still being aware of doing the dishes. One can do them distractedly, but then you might break one. Mindfulness isn't so much as thinking about doing the dishes, but being conscious of the reality as it is momentarily. Because we get swept off by mind and lose contact with real lived experience, it feels like we notice that we've lost consciousness of the moment in which we live, and remember,'this is how it is'. They are different and I think you describe mindfulness well. But the belief and the sense of self intertwine, in a dynamic, one constantly feeding back onto the other. It's possible to become conscious of this as it's happening. It's also possible for that process to cease. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 9, 2023 7:13:48 GMT -5
I think a sense of self and a belief in 'me' are different things, and if you pay attention to doing dishes, there is only an experience of dishes being done. There isn't a real-lived experience of a doer doing, but you're still being aware of doing the dishes. One can do them distractedly, but then you might break one. Mindfulness isn't so much as thinking about doing the dishes, but being conscious of the reality as it is momentarily. Because we get swept off by mind and lose contact with real lived experience, it feels like we notice that we've lost consciousness of the moment in which we live, and remember,'this is how it is'. Exactly, these are two different states. Just washing dishes is autopilot. Exactly, it's possible to-be-conscious of the reality of the moment. The problem is others here don't consider one is of more value than the other. I see that as a problem. Autopilot becomes the default state, it makes life easier in many ways. We can go to La-La-Land on autopilot, "we get swept off and lose contact with real lived experience". We lose ~ being conscious of~, these times, yes, we've become lost. The one is of more infinity value than the other, for sdp. It boggles my mind how this is not recognized. Being conscious of does not in any sense mean thinking of. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 1, 2024 13:58:57 GMT -5
....bumped for ZD. alaya-vijnana, the storehouse consciousness, is roughly equivalent to the term Niz used, causal body, from his tradition, what his teacher taught him. It's a "body" which consists of finer vibrations, finer than science can measure. You've heard of chi, qi or prana I'm sure. This is energy of a finer vibration. You've heard of the meridians in Chinese medicine I'm sure, acupuncture, and also Taoist alchemy. The meridians are pathways, kind of like blood vessels, but they are energy pathways in the next subtle body, the etheric double. You've heard of the chakras I'm sure. These are a vortex (or torus) of energy that connect the higher bodies to the glands of the physical body. The crown chakra is the highest at the top of the head, it is called the thousand petaled lotus. But the causal body does not incarnate, directly. The basic goal is for the causal body and the ordinary mind to be directly linked, to be one and the same. This would basically be the end of the journey. Everything we experience and learn in an incarnation is downloaded into the alaya-vjinana-causal body, that's why it's called the storehouse consciousness. Our tiny little ordinary mind does not reincarnate, it basically dies during the (Tibetan Buddhist) Bardo after the death of the physical body. There are levels of energy which scientific instruments cease to be able to measure. This thread explores some of these things, from Buddhist Yogacara standpoint. I cut my teeth on all this starting at age 17 when my second "spiritual" teacher suggested I read the Theosophical (Society) literature. I learned even then the spiritual journey was about filling in the sub-planes of the finer bodies. It (the books) just didn't say how, I had to find the how. I had kept coming back to this certain book (on Amazon), for years, finally found it at a good price and got-it. It is most exceptional, why did I wait so long? Yogacara is variously translated as Mind-Only or Consciousness-Only. It's basically a very extensive exploration of how the mind-being is structured and that in relation to the world, It basically could be called Buddhist psychology. I'm about 2/3 of the way through, it just keeps getting better. Have been considering some quotes. They are relevant to some of the other posts today, so decided to pull the trigger. It's a 2009 book by the abbot of the Hosso Zen Temple of Kofukuji in Japan, Tagawa Shun'ei, translated by Charles Muller, who teaches at the University of Tokyo. Basically, there are eight consciousnesses. The first six were known and accepted in Buddhism previous to Yogacara (the six object-discerning consciousnesses). These are the consciousnesses of the five senses, and the sixth is thinking, called mano consciousness, the thinking mind. The developers of Yogacara decided these categories did not explain the full range of human experience so developed the 7th and 8th consciousnesses. The seventh is manas consciousness. "The Yogacarins, deliberating on the composition of our mind and its functions of conscious awareness, came to be convinced that there had to be an additional, deeper layer of the mind, which, while continuously imposing its influence on everyday conscious awareness, also served as its underlying basis. Thus, they posited a subconscious region of the mind, comprised of the two deep layers of consciousness of manas (fundamental mentation consciousness) and alaya-vijnanapg 12 (storehouse consciousness, which I will use from here on). Manas consciousness is ceaselessly exerting great influence on our conscious daily lives". pg 15 What becomes of mano-thinking consciousness when we sleep? The Yogacarins saw the necessity for a 7th manas as a consciousness that maintains a sense of self and information, information which is not constantly on one's mind. When we improve at anything, a craft or a skill, this is maintained in manas, the subconscious mind. IOW, the thinking mind only operates at intervals, not continuously. pg 15 So why is this important? Because in Buddhism there is no permanent soul which can handle these "duties". So storehouse consciousness, the 8th, is necessary to maintain continuity from past to present to future, "it firmly retains the aftereffects of all that we have done". pg 13 Later in the book we see storehouse consciousness is necessary to hold causes and effects from one life to a next life, the seeds and fruit. So storehouse consciousness is the base of manas consciousness, which is the base of thinking-mano consciousness. These are called the three subjective transformations. Now the quotes...from Living Yogacara, An Introduction to Consciousness-Only Buddhism. Yogacara forms the base of Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. Without even finishing I'll put it into my top ten favorite books. |
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