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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 13:41:37 GMT -5
If you had such tranquilly, it would re-orchestrate the outside world as well. So the difficult moments you mention would not occur (mostly) because you are not only watching life, but also creating it. You can't re-orchestrate Reality and you can't avoid hard things like the death of a beloved. But you can be at peace with it. Some call it making room.. The best metaphor I've heard is a handful of salt in a glass versus a lake. In the latter, you can barely taste the saltiness. Like the woman who asked the Buddha to relieve her from the grief caused by the death of her son. He told her to go to every house in the village and collect a cup of rice from anyone who has not known grief. She came back empty handed. I always thought freedom was about avoiding pain. It's not. It's much more about allowing, letting go. It doesn't mean inaction, btw. The story of Arjuna is insightful in this regard. life and death cannot be avoided, those are all one time thing that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about experience. Why can not you change the realty? Those are appearance, appearance can be easily changed by consciousness. |
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Post by zazeniac on May 1, 2023 7:26:19 GMT -5
You can't re-orchestrate Reality and you can't avoid hard things like the death of a beloved. But you can be at peace with it. Some call it making room.. The best metaphor I've heard is a handful of salt in a glass versus a lake. In the latter, you can barely taste the saltiness. Like the woman who asked the Buddha to relieve her from the grief caused by the death of her son. He told her to go to every house in the village and collect a cup of rice from anyone who has not known grief. She came back empty handed. I always thought freedom was about avoiding pain. It's not. It's much more about allowing, letting go. It doesn't mean inaction, btw. The story of Arjuna is insightful in this regard. life and death cannot be avoided, those are all one time thing that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about experience. Why can not you change the realty? Those are appearance, appearance can be easily changed by consciousness. What you call consciousness is just another character in "The Adventures of Gopal" movie. It's the main character, but not the screen writer. You, the character Gopal can't rewrite the script. What should clue you in to this? In deep sleep does this consciousness that perceives appearances seize to exist? Do YOU seize to exist? When you lose consciousness, does Gopal still exist? But do YOU seize to exist? There is something that exists in all states,sleep, awake (conscious), and dream. When Gopal regains consciousness, who or what regained it? See where I'm going? There is something beyond ordinary consciousness, the consciousness of perception. You say you can't "know" this? I agree. But I AM THIS. Please feel free to reply, but this is my last comment on this topic. We've beat this horse into oblivion. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 9:02:44 GMT -5
life and death cannot be avoided, those are all one time thing that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about experience. Why can not you change the realty? Those are appearance, appearance can be easily changed by consciousness. What you call consciousness is just another character in "The Adventures of Gopal" movie. It's the main character, but not the screen writer. You, the character Gopal can't rewrite the script. What should clue you in to this? In deep sleep does this consciousness that perceives appearances seize to exist? Do YOU seize to exist? When you lose consciousness, does Gopal still exist? But do YOU seize to exist? There is something that exists in all states,sleep, awake (conscious), and dream. When Gopal regains consciousness, who or what regained it? See where I'm going? There is something beyond ordinary consciousness, the consciousness of perception. You say you can't "know" this? I agree. But I AM THIS. Please feel free to reply, but this is my last comment on this topic. We've beat this horse into oblivion. sure no problem, let us not continue. |
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Post by laughter on May 1, 2023 10:44:53 GMT -5
You can't re-orchestrate Reality and you can't avoid hard things like the death of a beloved. But you can be at peace with it. Some call it making room.. The best metaphor I've heard is a handful of salt in a glass versus a lake. In the latter, you can barely taste the saltiness. Like the woman who asked the Buddha to relieve her from the grief caused by the death of her son. He told her to go to every house in the village and collect a cup of rice from anyone who has not known grief. She came back empty handed. I always thought freedom was about avoiding pain. It's not. It's much more about allowing, letting go. It doesn't mean inaction, btw. The story of Arjuna is insightful in this regard. life and death cannot be avoided, those are all one time thing that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about experience. Why can not you change the realty? Those are appearance, appearance can be easily changed by consciousness. Gopal. These questions you pose, they are all various forms of self-inquiry. You'll never finish the inquiry by re-forming the existential question. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 1, 2023 11:16:19 GMT -5
Gopal, your realization, is there something else, a deeper realization you might have? Or do you think your realization is IT for you? Nothing more expected to come?
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2023 5:02:32 GMT -5
You must have heard this statement very often here. Do you know what's the meaning of this statement? This statement implies that only one horse is running in the race. How come one can have many perception? Have you ever thought of this ? One consciousness is looking at more than one perception simultaneously? Or does it take turn between you and me? The Infinite (THIS) is looking out of every set of eyes. This can be known as a result of a particular realization--a direct seeing that separation is a cognitive illusion and that all boundaries are imaginary. If we search for an actual boundary anywhere, it will never be found because all imagined boundaries are like lines of longitude and latitude. This cannot be known via the intellect although many thought experiments can be used to logically understand the issue. Reality is non-dual, and duality only exists in thought (images, ideas, symbols, language). THIS, in the form of humans, has evolved an intellect that can make imaginary distinctions, which are useful but deceptive psychological acts of severance. What we call "the consensus paradigm" is the common idea that reality is composed of 10,000 things that interact in 10,000 ways and is seen by a separate thing called "me." None of that is true. I'm always fascinated when I see such an uncompromising absolutist statement. You say none of that is true but I know that is contrary to your everyday experience. You do perceive many things interacting with many other things. I should hope so because I would be reluctant to go into any of those houses you built if you didn't see such relationships. And presumably those houses were built for "others" so there is not much point in claiming there are no others. At the same time that doesn't contradict the statement that reality is nondual from the perspective of the ultimate unchanging knower or witness. If there are no others and there really aren't separate things then that means that nothing ever happened. But that's not correct. It's like this. The wave arising from the ocean adds nothing to the ocean and the wave merging back into the ocean subtracts nothing from the ocean. So on that level nothing ever happened yet on the other hand something did happen because we observed it. We saw the wave rising and falling but it didn't change the contents of ocean in any way whatsoever. So these kind of absolutist statements do not convey the truth. It's the same with saying there are no others. It's both true and not true. Clearly you have interactions and experiences with others but like the wave, when that other disappears there is no other, but when that other reappears then there is the other. The same applies to free will. There is no free will lurking in the background waiting to exercise free will but there is free will only when there is. Otherwise there isn't. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 8, 2023 10:42:28 GMT -5
The Infinite (THIS) is looking out of every set of eyes. This can be known as a result of a particular realization--a direct seeing that separation is a cognitive illusion and that all boundaries are imaginary. If we search for an actual boundary anywhere, it will never be found because all imagined boundaries are like lines of longitude and latitude. This cannot be known via the intellect although many thought experiments can be used to logically understand the issue. Reality is non-dual, and duality only exists in thought (images, ideas, symbols, language). THIS, in the form of humans, has evolved an intellect that can make imaginary distinctions, which are useful but deceptive psychological acts of severance. What we call "the consensus paradigm" is the common idea that reality is composed of 10,000 things that interact in 10,000 ways and is seen by a separate thing called "me." None of that is true. I'm always fascinated when I see such an uncompromising absolutist statement. You say none of that is true but I know that is contrary to your everyday experience. You do perceive many things interacting with many other things. I should hope so because I would be reluctant to go into any of those houses you built if you didn't see such relationships. And presumably those houses were built for "others" so there is not much point in claiming there are no others. At the same time that doesn't contradict the statement that reality is nondual from the perspective of the ultimate unchanging knower or witness. If there are no others and there really aren't separate things then that means that nothing ever happened. But that's not correct. It's like this. The wave arising from the ocean adds nothing to the ocean and the wave merging back into the ocean subtracts nothing from the ocean. So on that level nothing ever happened yet on the other hand something did happen because we observed it. We saw the wave rising and falling but it didn't change the contents of ocean in any way whatsoever. So these kind of absolutist statements do not convey the truth. It's the same with saying there are no others. It's both true and not true. Clearly you have interactions and experiences with others but like the wave, when that other disappears there is no other, but when that other reappears then there is the other. The same applies to free will. There is no free will lurking in the background waiting to exercise free will but there is free will only when there is. Otherwise there isn't. Bingo x Infinity - 1. This is quite brilliant. Ya know, it is really frustrating trying to dialogue with ZD. I won't comment further, here, will just say ' came to start a new thread. I asked a question a few days ago, got somewhere. Your post is exactly square in the middle of the getting. Thanks satch. Actually, starting two threads. One will be short. The other "getting", maybe about an hour. Conceiving the Inconceivable. |
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Post by zendancer on May 8, 2023 11:22:44 GMT -5
I'm always fascinated when I see such an uncompromising absolutist statement. You say none of that is true but I know that is contrary to your everyday experience. You do perceive many things interacting with many other things. I should hope so because I would be reluctant to go into any of those houses you built if you didn't see such relationships. And presumably those houses were built for "others" so there is not much point in claiming there are no others. At the same time that doesn't contradict the statement that reality is nondual from the perspective of the ultimate unchanging knower or witness. If there are no others and there really aren't separate things then that means that nothing ever happened. But that's not correct. It's like this. The wave arising from the ocean adds nothing to the ocean and the wave merging back into the ocean subtracts nothing from the ocean. So on that level nothing ever happened yet on the other hand something did happen because we observed it. We saw the wave rising and falling but it didn't change the contents of ocean in any way whatsoever. So these kind of absolutist statements do not convey the truth. It's the same with saying there are no others. It's both true and not true. Clearly you have interactions and experiences with others but like the wave, when that other disappears there is no other, but when that other reappears then there is the other. The same applies to free will. There is no free will lurking in the background waiting to exercise free will but there is free will only when there is. Otherwise there isn't. Bingo x Infinity - 1. This is quite brilliant. Ya know, it is really frustrating trying to dialogue with ZD. I won't comment further, here, will just say ' came to start a new thread. I asked a question a few days ago, got somewhere. Your post is exactly square in the middle of the getting. Thanks satch. Actually, starting two threads. One will be short. The other "getting", maybe about an hour. Conceiving the Inconceivable. The consensus paradigm is something to which most peeps are strongly attached. Sages are always pointing toward what Jesus called "the living truth," which lies beyond the deadness of the consensus paradigm. Recently the NYT ran a major article on the benefits of walking, both physically and psychologically. In that same issue was an op ed by Francis Sanzaro that was also about walking. Sanzaro is a mountain climber, hiker, skier, etc, who wrote about his failure to feel the mysterium tremendum while climbing frozen waterfalls, standing on the summits of mountains, etc. He did extreme stuff in spectacular natural settings in an attempt to feel what he thought he should feel in such places, but he always failed. He then read an article by a nature writer who helped him realize that he was trapped by his concepts ABOUT what he was looking at or experiencing or expecting. He subsequently began walking on his city streets with a different approach because he understood how concepts were standing between himself and what he was looking at. He stopped thinking and began looking, listening, smelling, feeling, etc, and as he changed the way he interacted with the world, the world came alive. In short, he used ATA-T to get out of his head and discover the unimaginable in places that most people consider mundane. For anyone who doesn't understand what's being pointed to, the op ed is worth googling. Reality, Itself, is absolute and beyond conceptualization whereas the consensus paradigm is a relativistic illusion. The choice is clear; either continue imagining separateness or discover that which is undivided.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 8, 2023 11:40:19 GMT -5
Bingo x Infinity - 1. This is quite brilliant. Ya know, it is really frustrating trying to dialogue with ZD. I won't comment further, here, will just say ' came to start a new thread. I asked a question a few days ago, got somewhere. Your post is exactly square in the middle of the getting. Thanks satch. Actually, starting two threads. One will be short. The other "getting", maybe about an hour. Conceiving the Inconceivable. The consensus paradigm is something to which most peeps are strongly attached. Sages are always pointing toward what Jesus called "the living truth," which lies beyond the deadness of the consensus paradigm. Recently the NYT ran a major article on the benefits of walking, both physically and psychologically. In that same issue was an op ed by Francis Sanzaro that was also about walking. Sanzaro is a mountain climber, hiker, skier, etc, who wrote about his failure to feel the mysterium tremendum while climbing frozen waterfalls, standing on the summits of mountains, etc. He did extreme stuff in spectacular natural settings in an attempt to feel what he thought he should feel in such places, but he always failed. He then read an article by a nature writer who helped him realize that he was trapped by his concepts ABOUT what he was looking at or experiencing or expecting. He subsequently began walking on his city streets with a different approach because he understood how concepts were standing between himself and what he was looking at. He stopped thinking and began looking, listening, smelling, feeling, etc, and as he changed the way he interacted with the world, the world came alive. In short, he used ATA-T to get out of his head and discover the unimaginable in places that most people consider mundane. For anyone who doesn't understand what's being pointed to, the op ed is worth googling. Reality, Itself, is absolute and beyond conceptualization whereas the consensus paradigm is a relativistic illusion. The choice is clear; either continue imagining separateness or discover that which is undivided. Of course this is the 99% ZD. It's good to hear from the 1% ZD sometimes, who satch was writing about (which you disregard 99% of the time). Of course, no problem with any of this, it's just a bird flying with one wing. |
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Post by justlikeyou on May 8, 2023 19:30:58 GMT -5
You must have heard this statement very often here. Do you know what's the meaning of this statement? This statement implies that only one horse is running in the race. How come one can have many perception? Have you ever thought of this ? One consciousness is looking at more than one perception simultaneously? Or does it take turn between you and me? ChatGPT: "Consciousness, often referred to as the foundation of perception, is a fascinating and complex concept. While there are various theories and perspectives on consciousness, I can provide you with a general description of how consciousness can be considered cosmic in nature and how different creatures possess limited versions of consciousness. Cosmic Nature of Consciousness: Consciousness is often regarded as a fundamental aspect of the universe. It is the subjective experience of awareness, self-reflection, and the ability to perceive and interact with the world. Some philosophical and scientific perspectives propose that consciousness is not solely confined to individual organisms but may have a broader cosmic presence. The idea of consciousness being cosmic in nature suggests that it might be an inherent property of the universe itself, potentially existing at various levels or scales. It posits that consciousness is not limited to biological creatures but may manifest in different forms throughout the cosmos, giving rise to the possibility of a universal or cosmic consciousness. Limited Versions of Consciousness in Creatures: Within the scope of our understanding, consciousness appears to exist in varying degrees among different creatures. While humans are often associated with higher levels of consciousness, other animals and organisms also possess limited versions of consciousness. Consciousness in creatures can be observed through their ability to perceive and interact with their environment, exhibit behavior indicative of awareness, display emotional experiences, and demonstrate learning and memory. However, the extent and complexity of consciousness can differ significantly among species. It is important to note that the subjective experience of consciousness is challenging to quantify or measure objectively. Thus, identifying the exact nature and degree of consciousness in different creatures remains an ongoing scientific inquiry, encompassing fields such as neuroscience, psychology, and philosophy. In summary, the concept of consciousness as a cosmic phenomenon suggests that it extends beyond individual organisms and may have a broader presence in the universe. While consciousness appears to exist in limited versions across various creatures, the extent and complexity of consciousness can vary significantly among species. Exploring and understanding the nature of consciousness continues to be a captivating area of research and contemplation." |
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Post by justlikeyou on May 8, 2023 19:46:40 GMT -5
Theorize how panpsychism and perception work together.
ChatGPT:
"When considering how panpsychism and perception work together, we can explore a theoretical perspective that incorporates the idea that consciousness is an inherent aspect of all matter, and perception is the process through which consciousness interacts with and interprets the world.
In the context of panpsychism, perception can be seen as the manifestation of consciousness in the form of experiencing and making sense of the surrounding environment. Here's a speculative description of how panpsychism and perception might be interconnected:
Fundamental consciousness: According to panpsychism, every fundamental particle or entity possesses some degree of consciousness, albeit in a rudimentary form. This basic consciousness serves as the building block for more complex forms of consciousness.
Emergence and combination: As matter becomes more organized and complex, such as in the case of living organisms with sophisticated nervous systems like humans, individual units of consciousness combine and interact, giving rise to a more intricate and integrated form of consciousness.
Perception as interaction: Perception can be viewed as the process by which conscious entities interact with their surroundings. Consciousness, inherent in every particle or unit, engages with the external world through sensory inputs, such as sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
Conscious filtering and interpretation: As sensory information is received, consciousness processes and filters it, constructing a subjective interpretation of the perceived reality. This interpretation can be influenced by the specific characteristics and capabilities of the conscious entity involved.
Complexity and self-awareness: In more advanced organisms, like humans, perception not only involves the reception and interpretation of sensory information but also encompasses higher-order cognitive processes. These processes allow for self-awareness, introspection, memory, and the ability to reason about the perceived experiences.
Dynamic feedback loop: Perception and consciousness are intertwined in a continuous feedback loop. Perception shapes and molds consciousness, while consciousness, in turn, influences and guides perception. This dynamic interplay allows for the ongoing construction and refinement of our understanding of the world."
Regenerate response
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Post by justlikeyou on May 8, 2023 20:57:46 GMT -5
theorize how cosmic consciousness might become individuated consciousness
ChatGPT:
The concept of cosmic consciousness refers to a state of expanded awareness or connection with a greater, universal consciousness. Theorizing how cosmic consciousness might become individuated consciousness involves considering the transition from a unified, interconnected state to a more individualized experience. Here are some speculative perspectives on this transition:
Filtering and limitation: In the shift from cosmic consciousness to individuated consciousness, it is theorized that the universal awareness becomes filtered or limited through individual minds or consciousness. This filtering process might involve narrowing down the vastness of cosmic consciousness into a more focused and individualized experience, allowing for a unique perspective and sense of self.
Development of the ego: The emergence of an individuated consciousness could be associated with the development of the ego, which gives rise to a sense of separate identity and self. As cosmic consciousness becomes individuated, it is thought that the ego plays a role in creating a boundary or distinction between oneself and the broader universal consciousness. This egoic identification might allow for the exploration of individual experiences and perspectives.
Learning and growth: The process of individuation could involve the exploration and integration of unique experiences, lessons, and challenges. It is theorized that cosmic consciousness manifests in various individual forms to learn, grow, and expand its understanding through diverse perspectives. Each individual's conscious experiences contribute to the collective evolution of cosmic consciousness.
Manifestation in physical reality: The individuation of consciousness may also be related to the manifestation of consciousness in physical reality. It is speculated that cosmic consciousness condenses or materializes into individual forms to interact and participate in the physical world. This physical manifestation allows for a more tangible and localized experience of consciousness.
Illusion of separation: Another perspective is that individuated consciousness arises from an illusion of separation. In this view, cosmic consciousness remains interconnected and unified at its core, but individualized experiences create the perception of separateness. The illusion of separation allows for the exploration of diverse perspectives and experiences, while ultimately serving as a catalyst for self-realization and a return to the awareness of the underlying unity.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2023 21:05:52 GMT -5
Bingo x Infinity - 1. This is quite brilliant. Ya know, it is really frustrating trying to dialogue with ZD. I won't comment further, here, will just say ' came to start a new thread. I asked a question a few days ago, got somewhere. Your post is exactly square in the middle of the getting. Thanks satch. Actually, starting two threads. One will be short. The other "getting", maybe about an hour. Conceiving the Inconceivable. The consensus paradigm is something to which most peeps are strongly attached. Sages are always pointing toward what Jesus called "the living truth," which lies beyond the deadness of the consensus paradigm. Recently the NYT ran a major article on the benefits of walking, both physically and psychologically. In that same issue was an op ed by Francis Sanzaro that was also about walking. Sanzaro is a mountain climber, hiker, skier, etc, who wrote about his failure to feel the mysterium tremendum while climbing frozen waterfalls, standing on the summits of mountains, etc. He did extreme stuff in spectacular natural settings in an attempt to feel what he thought he should feel in such places, but he always failed. He then read an article by a nature writer who helped him realize that he was trapped by his concepts ABOUT what he was looking at or experiencing or expecting. He subsequently began walking on his city streets with a different approach because he understood how concepts were standing between himself and what he was looking at. He stopped thinking and began looking, listening, smelling, feeling, etc, and as he changed the way he interacted with the world, the world came alive. In short, he used ATA-T to get out of his head and discover the unimaginable in places that most people consider mundane. For anyone who doesn't understand what's being pointed to, the op ed is worth googling. Reality, Itself, is absolute and beyond conceptualization whereas the consensus paradigm is a relativistic illusion. The choice is clear; either continue imagining separateness or discover that which is undivided. And since Reality is one and indivisible it also includes the relative without separation or difference. The living Truth of Jesus you referred to depends on the relative as the path to salvation. |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 7:30:20 GMT -5
Recently the NYT ran a major article on the benefits of walking, both physically and psychologically. In that same issue was an op ed by Francis Sanzaro that was also about walking. Sanzaro is a mountain climber, hiker, skier, etc, who wrote about his failure to feel the mysterium tremendum while climbing frozen waterfalls, standing on the summits of mountains, etc. He did extreme stuff in spectacular natural settings in an attempt to feel what he thought he should feel in such places, but he always failed. He then read an article by a nature writer who helped him realize that he was trapped by his concepts ABOUT what he was looking at or experiencing or expecting. He subsequently began walking on his city streets with a different approach because he understood how concepts were standing between himself and what he was looking at. He stopped thinking and began looking, listening, smelling, feeling, etc, and as he changed the way he interacted with the world, the world came alive. In short, he used ATA-T to get out of his head and discover the unimaginable in places that most people consider mundane. It seems to me that what Francis Sanzaro is doing is getting deeper into duality. Here is a link to the articleHe began connecting more with the natural world which is dualistic. He's not concluding the world is an illusion, quite the opposite. For him it's absolutely real. It's more real for him since he removed his concepts and expectations about what to feel or expect. If his heightened experience of duality is not what you refer to as the deadness of the consensus paradigm then what is because you didn't really define it. |
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Post by zendancer on May 9, 2023 10:11:40 GMT -5
Recently the NYT ran a major article on the benefits of walking, both physically and psychologically. In that same issue was an op ed by Francis Sanzaro that was also about walking. Sanzaro is a mountain climber, hiker, skier, etc, who wrote about his failure to feel the mysterium tremendum while climbing frozen waterfalls, standing on the summits of mountains, etc. He did extreme stuff in spectacular natural settings in an attempt to feel what he thought he should feel in such places, but he always failed. He then read an article by a nature writer who helped him realize that he was trapped by his concepts ABOUT what he was looking at or experiencing or expecting. He subsequently began walking on his city streets with a different approach because he understood how concepts were standing between himself and what he was looking at. He stopped thinking and began looking, listening, smelling, feeling, etc, and as he changed the way he interacted with the world, the world came alive. In short, he used ATA-T to get out of his head and discover the unimaginable in places that most people consider mundane. It seems to me that what Francis Sanzaro is doing is getting deeper into duality. Here is a link to the articleHe began connecting more with the natural world which is dualistic. He's not concluding the world is an illusion, quite the opposite. For him it's absolutely real. It's more real for him since he removed his concepts and expectations about what to feel or expect. If his heightened experience of duality is not what you refer to as the deadness of the consensus paradigm then what is because you didn't really define it. Without repeating past postings about this, Adya and many other sages have noted that there are two types of SR. Some people have an identity shift from the CP to pure awareness, as if they are ONLY the audience watching a movie. Other people have an identity shift from the CP to THIS, and THIS, using the movie metaphor, includes the audience, the projector, the images on the screen, etc. For the latter group of sages all-that-is is what they are, so nothing is discarded or ignored. Apparently it doesn't matter which shift occurs because both groups attain freedom, peace, and equanimity. Ramana has a great quotation about this, and I'll post it when I find it. In short, it goes something like this: "Seekers reject everything that changes as illusion, but after they discover the Self, they discover that everything that was rejected is then seen to be included in the Self." FWIW, I wasn't claiming that Sanzaro is enlightened. I was more interested in his description about how the world "came alive" when he stopped thinking about what he was looking at. Many people who go on solo retreats during which they shift attention away from thoughts report the same sort of thing happening along with a sense of unity and communion with "what is." Some of them even wake up fully, and I can think of specific examples of that. |
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