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Post by Reefs on Dec 13, 2022 23:54:43 GMT -5
Name one distinction that is not imaginary. SR vs. non-SR? savikalpa vs. nirvikalpa? What does "imaginary" mean in your question? THIS vs imaginary? The challenge we face when we are talking about THIS is that we have to point (utilizing intellect, language and concepts) from within imagination (intellect, language and concepts) to beyond imagination (prior to intellect, language and concepts). Which is why we cannot say (using intellect, language and concepts) what THIS is, we can only say (using intellect, language and concepts) what IT is not. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2022 23:58:43 GMT -5
The rollercoaster G is talking about is specifically an emotional rollercoaster, which I would say is more a product of human dysfunction and false belief, than it is a universal polarity. We do experience what seems like polarity because there's a measuring and objectifying aspect to the mind, and this aspect can only think in terms of 'presences'. It cannot grok an absence...it objectifies it. Because of this, we experience light and dark as polarity, but in reality, there is no darkness, there is only relative absence of light, cold is a relative absence of heat, quietness is a relative absence of sound etc. So I would say the reality of existence is 'relative contrast', not 'absolute poles'. Or as you said.... vibrational. Unhappiness would be a relative absence of wellbeing. Gopal can clarify. I've never took him to mean just an emotional rollercoaster. The feeling part goes up and down. Story(Inner and outer world movement) is projected to create the experience of ups and downs. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 0:01:34 GMT -5
I will give an example. In elementary school looking at a map of the world, I could always see South America fitting into Africa like two puzzle pieces. I never mentioned it to anyone. It took some guy, don't recall his name, to devise the idea of continental drift, and we eventually came to know that South America and Africa actually did once fit together. The actuality came before the theory, but the theory discovered the actuality. That came from just looking... The idea did not negate the fact. Again, this is just imagination. It did not arise as a result of simple looking; it came from the intellect imagining lines of demarcation, boundaries, patterns, etc. If a Zen student posted this, A ZM might hold up a map of the world and ask, "What is this?" or "What do you see?" If the student so much as opened his/her mouth, the ZM would ring his bell and suggest more meditation. ND is beyond ideation or words symbolizing ideational abstractions. It points beyond anything that can be imagined. Floating is only possible when you realize roller-coaster. When you know you are in the down side of the rollercoaster, It will protect you from going too deep in unhappiness, so you remain calm. But when you do not know it's the down side of the roller-coaster, you would automatically enter into deep side of the roller-coaster. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 14, 2022 4:09:10 GMT -5
The issue is rather simple; can one find an actual boundary of any kind? The monk told the ZM that the birds had already flown away. Upon hearing this response to his question about where the birds had gone, the ZM grabbed the monk's nose, twisted it, and shouted, "How could they have possibly flown away?" The ZM was trying to wake the monk up to the unified field of being in front of his eyes. As it turned out, the monk was sufficiently ripe and the ZM was successful. A follower of Ramana supposedly asked him on his deathbed, "Master, are you leaving us?" Ramana replied, "Where could I possibly go?" Same question; same answer. Perhaps the most amazing thing about humans is how they overlook the strangeness of their own bodies and the functionality of every cell composing the body. They imagine that they are separate entities controlling what happens, but they ignore the mind-boggling intelligence animating their own bodies. How does one digest food? Clot blood? Grow skin, hair, or bones? Fight off an infection? Think? See? Feel? The living truth cannot be imagined; it can only be realized. I had a tooth extracted today and noted some sadness in my gut a couple of hours later, so I went into the feeling to see what it had to say, and it was something like this...the tooth has been with me through thick and thin through my life, it has taken care of me through every meal, and in its own way, it has loved endlessly and unconditionally. There is SO much love around us all the time...we are constantly enveloped in it, it's amazing that most of us (including me) aren't aware of it all the time. I guess we wouldn't function much if we were blissed out in love all the time. liked this post twice.  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 14, 2022 4:10:06 GMT -5
The issue is rather simple; can one find an actual boundary of any kind? The monk told the ZM that the birds had already flown away. Upon hearing this response to his question about where the birds had gone, the ZM grabbed the monk's nose, twisted it, and shouted, "How could they have possibly flown away?" The ZM was trying to wake the monk up to the unified field of being in front of his eyes. As it turned out, the monk was sufficiently ripe and the ZM was successful. A follower of Ramana supposedly asked him on his deathbed, "Master, are you leaving us?" Ramana replied, "Where could I possibly go?" Same question; same answer. Perhaps the most amazing thing about humans is how they overlook the strangeness of their own bodies and the functionality of every cell composing the body. They imagine that they are separate entities controlling what happens, but they ignore the mind-boggling intelligence animating their own bodies. How does one digest food? Clot blood? Grow skin, hair, or bones? Fight off an infection? Think? See? Feel? The living truth cannot be imagined; it can only be realized. How does this negate polarity? If you step out of your door and take a walk, no matter where you walk, not matter how many valleys or how many mountains, when you get back home, all ups and downs are equal. The essence of the manifest universe is vibration. There are different rates of vibration. But if you look at a wave, the peak and trough are equal, they balance out. How does and peak and a trough balancing out negate the whole manifest universe? You are not negating Gopal's rollercoaster, it exists. Why doesn't your realization just melt ZD into nothingness, non-existence? ZD wouldn't exist without vibration (crests and troughs). I think you will do better to explain Gopal's rollercoaster, not negate it. He hasn't negated polarity. He hasn't "negated the dual Universe". |
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Post by laughter on Dec 14, 2022 4:14:42 GMT -5
The rollercoaster G is talking about is specifically an emotional rollercoaster, which I would say is more a product of human dysfunction and false belief, than it is a universal polarity. We do experience what seems like polarity because there's a measuring and objectifying aspect to the mind, and this aspect can only think in terms of 'presences'. It cannot grok an absence...it objectifies it. Because of this, we experience light and dark as polarity, but in reality, there is no darkness, there is only relative absence of light, cold is a relative absence of heat, quietness is a relative absence of sound etc. So I would say the reality of existence is 'relative contrast', not 'absolute poles'. Or as you said.... vibrational. Unhappiness would be a relative absence of wellbeing. Gopal can clarify. I've never took him to mean just an emotional rollercoaster. I have to agree with you to some extent here. Life has it's ups and downs and not all of that is only a product of our reaction to what comes and goes. Saying any more beyond that though .. well ..  .. I'm about to start a thread on Hyakujo's Fox ... |
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Post by laughter on Dec 14, 2022 4:20:16 GMT -5
TMT! Stop thinking/imagining, and look. If the mind is silent, what do the eyes see? I guarantee that the eyes do NOT see a roller coaster, polarities, nothingness, somethingness, levels, vibrations, thingness, or anything else imaginable. The word "THIS" is only a pointer. It points to an infinite unified field of being. It does not negate polarity; it points beyond polarity and all other such concepts. I will give an example. In elementary school looking at a map of the world, I could always see South America fitting into Africa like two puzzle pieces. I never mentioned it to anyone. It took some guy, don't recall his name, to devise the idea of continental drift, and we eventually came to know that South America and Africa actually did once fit together. The actuality came before the theory, but the theory discovered the actuality. That came from just looking... The idea did not negate the fact. There are some so-called distinctions which are imaginary and some which are not. Phrenology used to be called a science, the bumps on your head were supposed to correspond to your character. That was definitely imaginary. It seems if we take things the way you say we should, the imaginary is part of the whole. Is that not what Gopal's OP is about? Is this not what the whole climate debate is about? It seems that if man didn't exist, the planet would be doing fine, we wouldn't have the pollution we do. If man didn't exist we wouldn't have tons of nuclear waste from nuclear power plants, which are just a fancy way to boil water, that's going to last for thousands of years, and we have to keep very good bookkeeping on all that, or somebody is going to dig it up in 50,000 years, and die. So it seems man has gone against the flow. If we took things to be as they were before modern man existed, say 100,000 years ago, I could agree with you. Alan Watts said that nature is always squiggly, no straight lines. I completely agree. But man has made *straight lines*, building buildings and laying out city grids. So you either have to say houses and buildings are imaginary, or qualify your statements. I'd say man's ~imagination~ has screwed up the planet. It seems all the problems we have in the world, poverty, famine, murder, terrorism, war, come from man's imagination, corrupt ideas in disagreement with the natural. Facts are facts, sure. You've read Sekida, and his idea of nens? Let me demonstrate: Is it a fact that you are reading this sentence? Is it a fact that 2+2=4? Is it a fact that South America and Africa once were joined? There are differences between these three instances. Sekida's nen concept can help illustrate those differences. The differences might ultimately seem trivial, as the intuition and evidence in favor of the facts are overwhelming. But, existentially speaking, the difference is a boundless chasm. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 14, 2022 4:45:54 GMT -5
The rollercoaster G is talking about is specifically an emotional rollercoaster, which I would say is more a product of human dysfunction and false belief, than it is a universal polarity. We do experience what seems like polarity because there's a measuring and objectifying aspect to the mind, and this aspect can only think in terms of 'presences'. It cannot grok an absence...it objectifies it. Because of this, we experience light and dark as polarity, but in reality, there is no darkness, there is only relative absence of light, cold is a relative absence of heat, quietness is a relative absence of sound etc. So I would say the reality of existence is 'relative contrast', not 'absolute poles'. Or as you said.... vibrational. Unhappiness would be a relative absence of wellbeing. . If that is realized, that's an important realization. But the conclusion that the rollercoaster experience is what life is, that's nonsense with a bit of taste of sour grapes on top. . But the other case I'm going to include in that thread is #19. The biggest buried lede in the history of literature. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 14, 2022 10:12:44 GMT -5
"Don't resist evil," another misleading statement from a nondualist. Does it mean we let let pedo progressives steal our babies? Is it an antidote to Gopal's roller coaster? Will it cure Laffy's ambiphilia? I ponder these and many other existential notions while sipping my morning coffee and mourning poor Sree's silence. Preparing a new sree-merick, a requiem. Should it more properly say "don't resist reefs?"
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 14, 2022 10:20:48 GMT -5
I had a tooth extracted today and noted some sadness in my gut a couple of hours later, so I went into the feeling to see what it had to say, and it was something like this...the tooth has been with me through thick and thin through my life, it has taken care of me through every meal, and in its own way, it has loved endlessly and unconditionally. There is SO much love around us all the time...we are constantly enveloped in it, it's amazing that most of us (including me) aren't aware of it all the time. I guess we wouldn't function much if we were blissed out in love all the time. liked this post twice. They say that's what heroin is like. I once knew a girl who took it only once. She said it was so good she was afraid to take it ever again. ....Sideways, gets us back to Anthony Bourdain. He quit heroin cold turkey. In the film about him, Roadrunner, a guy who knew about such things said he'd never seen anybody else do that. Slight edit. This post was really in reply to zazeniac, not particularly laughter, who took offense. But this is basically another example of Gopal's rollercoaster. We get habituated to sensory impressions. Eventually even a heroin addict has to take more heroin to get the same high, or even eventually has to take heroin, not for the high, but just to stave off withdrawal. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 14, 2022 10:30:05 GMT -5
"Don't resist evil," another misleading statement from a nondualist. Does it mean we let let pedo progressives steal our babies? Is it an antidote to Gopal's roller coaster? Will it cure Laffy's ambiphilia? I ponder these and many other existential notions while sipping my morning coffee and mourning poor Sree's silence. Preparing a new sree-merick, a requiem. Should it more properly say "don't resist reefs?" Don't resist evil, this is where Gopal enters. If you try to fight against evil, with good, you create the opposite, you create more evil. You have to learn "the art of fighting without fighting". BL |
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Post by laughter on Dec 14, 2022 11:15:08 GMT -5
Almost liked this post twice. They say that's what heroin is like. I once knew a girl who took it only once. She said it was so good she was afraid to take it ever again. ....Sideways, gets us back to Anthony Bourdain. He quit heroin cold turkey. In the film about him, Roadrunner, a guy who knew about such things said he'd never seen anybody else do that. The way I described "deep flow" was like the pleasure buzz I'd get from a day on the slopes, but the difference was that it was uncaused, and constant. There was also no hangover, and one of the reasons the slopes buzz is so fun is how tired you get, but the deep flow didn't involve that. In fact, it got much easier to deal with the legal clients I worked with without all the internal resistance. I can understand how it sounds like "heroin" to you, and I can imagine this happening for some people, but that's not what happened for me, and meeting deep unconsciousness with anything but full presence will just create more deep unconsciousness. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 14, 2022 11:43:27 GMT -5
Pardon the text wall quite from "Be As You Are," by Godman. It sheds some light on the discussion.
"Q: How can one function in the world in such a state? (sahaja)
A: One who accustoms himself naturally to meditation and enjoys the bliss of meditation will not lose his samadhi state whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts may come to him. That is sahaja nirvikalpa. Sahaja nirvikalpa is nasa [total destruction of the mind] whereas kevala nirvikalpa is laya[temporary abeyance of the mind]. Those who are in the laya samadhi state will have to bring the mind back under control from time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it is in sahaja samadhi, it will never sprout again. Whatever is done by such people is just incidental, they will never slide down from their high state. Those that are in the kevala nirvikalpa state are not realized, they are still seekers. Those who are in the sahaja nirvikalpa state are like a light in a windless place, or the ocean without waves; that is, there is no movement in them.
They cannot find anything which is different from themselves. For those who do not reach that state, everything appears to be different from themselves.
Q: Is the experience of kevala nirvikalpa the same as that of sahaja, although one comes down from it to the relative world?
A: There is neither coming down nor going up – he who goes up and down is not real. In kevala nirvikalpa there is the mental bucket still in existence under the water, and it can be pulled out at any moment. Sahaja is like the river that has linked up with the ocean from which there is no return.
Why do you ask all these questions? Go on practising till you have the experience yourself."
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Post by zendancer on Dec 14, 2022 13:13:26 GMT -5
Pardon the text wall quite from "Be As You Are," by Godman. It sheds some light on the discussion. "Q: How can one function in the world in such a state? (sahaja) A: One who accustoms himself naturally to meditation and enjoys the bliss of meditation will not lose his samadhi state whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts may come to him. That is sahaja nirvikalpa. Sahaja nirvikalpa is nasa [total destruction of the mind] whereas kevala nirvikalpa is laya[temporary abeyance of the mind]. Those who are in the laya samadhi state will have to bring the mind back under control from time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it is in sahaja samadhi, it will never sprout again. Whatever is done by such people is just incidental, they will never slide down from their high state. Those that are in the kevala nirvikalpa state are not realized, they are still seekers. Those who are in the sahaja nirvikalpa state are like a light in a windless place, or the ocean without waves; that is, there is no movement in them. They cannot find anything which is different from themselves. For those who do not reach that state, everything appears to be different from themselves. Q: Is the experience of kevala nirvikalpa the same as that of sahaja, although one comes down from it to the relative world? A: There is neither coming down nor going up – he who goes up and down is not real. In kevala nirvikalpa there is the mental bucket still in existence under the water, and it can be pulled out at any moment. Sahaja is like the river that has linked up with the ocean from which there is no return. Why do you ask all these questions? Go on practising till you have the experience yourself." Yes to the bolded; a roller coaster and the one who rides a roller coaster are both cognitive illusions. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 14, 2022 15:40:30 GMT -5
"Don't resist evil," another misleading statement from a nondualist. Does it mean we let let pedo progressives steal our babies? Is it an antidote to Gopal's roller coaster? Will it cure Laffy's ambiphilia? I ponder these and many other existential notions while sipping my morning coffee and mourning poor Sree's silence. Preparing a new sree-merick, a requiem. Should it more properly say "don't resist reefs?" I surely disagree with " Don't resist evil". Identify it, its source, and get rid of it! The deeper interpretation is: |
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.. I'm about to start a thread on Hyakujo's Fox ...