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Post by lolly on Nov 18, 2022 18:41:04 GMT -5
Ill will is not predetermined. It's strictly a reactive tendency, and in that sense it is not actually will at all. It works in a way we don't expect because we are captivated by the periphery of senses, the sights mostly, but sounds (dog barking), smells/taste, thoughts as well, and are not particularly attuned to how all these culminate in the production of sensations we can feel. The Buddhists say, and I agree with them, that all the reactive tendencies arise from feelings: "From feelings craving arises". Yes, when the dog barks I blame that bloody dog, but actually, my ill-will is directed as an aversion toward feelings in my own body, and is in that sense, self-hatred. The dog barks for a long time, wakes me up, and the din hits the auditory nerves and produces unpleasant vibrations through the rest of the nervous system. My adverse reactivity toward that sensation generates ill-will. That ill-will (psychological reaction) in turn affects new unpleasant feelings throughout the nervous system, to which I react adversely, amplifying my misdirected acrimony toward that bloody animal next door. Most of us, especially on a spiritual forum, and a 'teachers' forum no less, are hesitant to admit we have a tendency to generate ill-will, but every day we are doing it, if someone cuts us off, a telemarketer at dinnertime or someone on Twitter is WRONG! lol, but I think if we can go to the source of what are actually reacting to, then at least the aversion can be properly directed, instead of killing the damn dog.
The depth and breadth of the possible human response to negative reactions is quite vast. I can relate to what you describe quite directly, and I'll refrain from relating it to existential realization so as not to digress or cause controversy, but it is a significant factor, and fwiw, a potential opportunity for you. I've met people who really never would hurt a fly, and who never have. But this isn't a simple equation in one variable. Some harmless folks complain, gripe and even bluster, quite a bit. On the other hand, some of the most dangerous are also the most calm, cool and collected. Looking inward, there's this black hole, and paradoxically, it's the self-judgment about the reaction itself that has the potential to dig you even deeper. Of course, looking inward is the only way to go on this, and so yes, I understand the limited value of writing a post like this. Sure. All reactivity has a me, my, mine, in the middle, and I suppose that's why psychological reactivity feels like someone is generating ill-will.
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 21, 2022 11:11:34 GMT -5
There's a picture of a family friend who despises me for whatever reason, never thought to analyze it. But staring at her picture, I feel the ill-will and hostility in my throat. Strangely if I picture her body in my mind's eye, my reaction to her shifts. She has an amazing physique. It's interesting how this can happen so easily and quickly, this shift. I've also noticed that if I focus on the reaction to her picture without trying to stop it or analyze it and then try to notice where it appears, the vastness in which it appears. It's a very different experience than the norm of reaction, memory, thought storm about stopping the negative feelings or justifying them.
The other day, I noticed myself feeling judgy about a guy at the gym posing in front of the mirror. It suddenly dawned on me that I orchestrated the whole event.
I was reminded of the story of the monk in a free floating boat enjoying the sky who was struck by another boat and jumped up to angrily confront the other wreckless boater and found that the other boat was empty.
Perspective seems to shift reactions. They seem quite fickle.
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Post by andrew on Nov 21, 2022 12:05:33 GMT -5
There's a picture of a family friend who despises me for whatever reason, never thought to analyze it. But staring at her picture, I feel the ill-will and hostility in my throat. Strangely if I picture her body in my mind's eye, my reaction to her shifts. She has an amazing physique. It's interesting how this can happen so easily and quickly, this shift. I've also noticed that if I focus on the reaction to her picture without trying to stop it or analyze it and then try to notice where it appears, the vastness in which it appears. It's a very different experience than the norm of reaction, memory, thought storm about stopping the negative feelings or justifying them. The other day, I noticed myself feeling judgy about a guy at the gym posing in front of the mirror. It suddenly dawned on me that I orchestrated the whole event. I was reminded of the story of the monk in a free floating boat enjoying the sky who was struck by another boat and jumped up to angrily confront the other wreckless boater and found that the other boat was empty. Perspective seems to shift reactions. They seem quite fickle. So much of our angry reactions relates to expectation, and expectation relates to purposeful action (or the outcome we are wanting to achieve/create). Where there is purpose, there is expectation. Depending on what our desired outcome is, if our expectation is thwarted, we will experience anger/ill will. Animals are purposeful too, and expectation is built into that. The neighbours cat purposefully chases me round the kitchen and miows at me with the expectation of a snack. But I don't sense anger in the cat if I don't supply the goods. Humans are more likely to experience anger because we are complex, and we consciously associate conditions with feeling and states of being. Our outcomes are multi-layered. Animals don't make that association and have simpler outcomes/expectations. I backpacked when I was younger, one day I went into a youth hostal room where a girl was meditating. I started talking to my friend, and she got very angry at us for disturbing her peace  So yeah, we shift our perspective, because we have shifted our desired outcome (and expectation). I used to (and still do, to an extent) have a 'problem' with what we could call 'indecision'. I learned a lot from cats about how to be at peace when there is indecision. A cat will sometimes move backwards and forwards through a door (usually a door to the outside). In, out, in, out, in, out, in, out.... A cat can do this for half an hour in total peace. It has no 'outcome' of 'being decisive' or 'making a choice'. There's no emotional outcome either. When I used to do something similar, I used to get very stressed. These days, I just recognize it as energy movement, there's no strong path either way. So sometimes I will go backwards and forwards on something until one path becomes stronger. It's fine usually. I can write a message and then sit with it for 10 minutes in 'indecision'. Sometimes I delete, sometimes I post. Different desired outcome these days. Different expectation. It's okay. |
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 21, 2022 12:54:01 GMT -5
There's a picture of a family friend who despises me for whatever reason, never thought to analyze it. But staring at her picture, I feel the ill-will and hostility in my throat. Strangely if I picture her body in my mind's eye, my reaction to her shifts. She has an amazing physique. It's interesting how this can happen so easily and quickly, this shift. I've also noticed that if I focus on the reaction to her picture without trying to stop it or analyze it and then try to notice where it appears, the vastness in which it appears. It's a very different experience than the norm of reaction, memory, thought storm about stopping the negative feelings or justifying them. The other day, I noticed myself feeling judgy about a guy at the gym posing in front of the mirror. It suddenly dawned on me that I orchestrated the whole event. I was reminded of the story of the monk in a free floating boat enjoying the sky who was struck by another boat and jumped up to angrily confront the other wreckless boater and found that the other boat was empty. Perspective seems to shift reactions. They seem quite fickle. So much of our angry reactions relates to expectation, and expectation relates to purposeful action (or the outcome we are wanting to achieve/create). Where there is purpose, there is expectation. Depending on what our desired outcome is, if our expectation is thwarted, we will experience anger/ill will. Animals are purposeful too, and expectation is built into that. The neighbours cat purposefully chases me round the kitchen and miows at me with the expectation of a snack. But I don't sense anger in the cat if I don't supply the goods. Humans are more likely to experience anger because we are complex, and we consciously associate conditions with feeling and states of being. Our outcomes are multi-layered. Animals don't make that association and have simpler outcomes/expectations. I backpacked when I was younger, one day I went into a youth hostal room where a girl was meditating. I started talking to my friend, and she got very angry at us for disturbing her peace So yeah, we shift our perspective, because we have shifted our desired outcome (and expectation). I used to (and still do, to an extent) have a 'problem' with what we could call 'indecision'. I learned a lot from cats about how to be at peace when there is indecision. A cat will sometimes move backwards and forwards through a door (usually a door to the outside). In, out, in, out, in, out, in, out.... A cat can do this for half an hour in total peace. It has no 'outcome' of 'being decisive' or 'making a choice'. There's no emotional outcome either. When I used to do something similar, I used to get very stressed. These days, I just recognize it as energy movement, there's no strong path either way. So sometimes I will go backwards and forwards on something until one path becomes stronger. It's fine usually. I can write a message and then sit with it for 10 minutes in 'indecision'. Sometimes I delete, sometimes I post. Different desired outcome these days. Different expectation. It's okay. Discarding expectations is akin to acceptance and what I call "making room." It seems to happen organically when the mind's attention moves away from thought stories, but I do get caught when I am shown the picture inadvertently or I see a Texas license plate. So there's a reaction prior to thought, but definitely based on my life story, my conditioning, memory. Correction not really my conditioning, but that of the conceptual person who had a purported history with Texans and the hostile family friend. Hahaha! I'm NDing now with the best of them. It helps me to zero in on the reaction itself, usually there's a thought story to try to assuage or justify it. The focus on my body's reaction seems to shift the perspective. It reduces its usual effect by broadening the context. It's weird. But very different than telling myself a different story such as her and me don't exist. Like sree does. Just yanking his chain. 😁 The add-on ND story seems like some sort of denial after the fact. Decisions? Purpose? I have very few of those nowadays. I let those and other things go. But when I do more things get done. It's an interesting phenomena. |
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Post by andrew on Nov 21, 2022 13:00:52 GMT -5
So much of our angry reactions relates to expectation, and expectation relates to purposeful action (or the outcome we are wanting to achieve/create). Where there is purpose, there is expectation. Depending on what our desired outcome is, if our expectation is thwarted, we will experience anger/ill will. Animals are purposeful too, and expectation is built into that. The neighbours cat purposefully chases me round the kitchen and miows at me with the expectation of a snack. But I don't sense anger in the cat if I don't supply the goods. Humans are more likely to experience anger because we are complex, and we consciously associate conditions with feeling and states of being. Our outcomes are multi-layered. Animals don't make that association and have simpler outcomes/expectations. I backpacked when I was younger, one day I went into a youth hostal room where a girl was meditating. I started talking to my friend, and she got very angry at us for disturbing her peace So yeah, we shift our perspective, because we have shifted our desired outcome (and expectation). I used to (and still do, to an extent) have a 'problem' with what we could call 'indecision'. I learned a lot from cats about how to be at peace when there is indecision. A cat will sometimes move backwards and forwards through a door (usually a door to the outside). In, out, in, out, in, out, in, out.... A cat can do this for half an hour in total peace. It has no 'outcome' of 'being decisive' or 'making a choice'. There's no emotional outcome either. When I used to do something similar, I used to get very stressed. These days, I just recognize it as energy movement, there's no strong path either way. So sometimes I will go backwards and forwards on something until one path becomes stronger. It's fine usually. I can write a message and then sit with it for 10 minutes in 'indecision'. Sometimes I delete, sometimes I post. Different desired outcome these days. Different expectation. It's okay. Discarding expectations is akin to acceptance and what I call "making room." It seems to happen organically when the mind's attention moves away from thought stories, but I do get caught when I am shown the picture inadvertently or I see a Texas license plate. So there's a reaction prior to thought, but definitely based on my life story, my conditioning, memory. Correction not really my conditioning, but that of the conceptual person who had a purported history with Texans and the hostile family friend. Hahaha! I'm NDing now with the best of them. It helps me to zero in on the reaction itself, usually there's a thought story to try to assuage or justify it. The focus on my body's reaction seems to shift the perspective. It reduces its usual effect by broadening the context. It's weird. But very different than telling myself a different story such as her and me don't exist. Like sree does. Just yanking his chain. 😁 The add-on ND story seems like some sort of denial after the fact. Decisions? Purpose? I have very few of those nowadays. I let those and other things go. But when I do more things get done. It's an interesting phenomena. How do more things get done without 'purpose'? Ahhhh...maybe 'purpose' is not a good word here, and implies something too grandiose. Maybe 'intention' is better. Can you get out of bed without intention? Or go to the bathroom? Or eat dinner? I totally get what you are saying about broadening the context, but I would say that requires intention, values and desired outcome e.g a recognition that you don't like the sensation of looking at the photo and experiencing 'dislike', and because you value 'peace', you move your attention to the broader context. That could easily be described as wisdom I reckon. |
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Post by andrew on Nov 21, 2022 13:15:06 GMT -5
An animal won't intentionally move its attention and focus in order to experience a particular feeling or state of being. In this sense, an animal is at the mercy of its environment and instincts. Whereas humans recognize that moving attention does change our feelings and state of being. That might simply mean resting attention fully on the feeling that is present and just allowing the feeling to be here. Or maybe just 'witnessing'. This capacity gives humans a 'choice' that animals don't have, but it both a blessing and a curse, because the capacity can tie us in knots and put us at war with 'what is'.
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 21, 2022 13:28:16 GMT -5
Discarding expectations is akin to acceptance and what I call "making room." It seems to happen organically when the mind's attention moves away from thought stories, but I do get caught when I am shown the picture inadvertently or I see a Texas license plate. So there's a reaction prior to thought, but definitely based on my life story, my conditioning, memory. Correction not really my conditioning, but that of the conceptual person who had a purported history with Texans and the hostile family friend. Hahaha! I'm NDing now with the best of them. It helps me to zero in on the reaction itself, usually there's a thought story to try to assuage or justify it. The focus on my body's reaction seems to shift the perspective. It reduces its usual effect by broadening the context. It's weird. But very different than telling myself a different story such as her and me don't exist. Like sree does. Just yanking his chain. 😁 The add-on ND story seems like some sort of denial after the fact. Decisions? Purpose? I have very few of those nowadays. I let those and other things go. But when I do more things get done. It's an interesting phenomena. How do more things get done without 'purpose'? Ahhhh...maybe 'purpose' is not a good word here, and implies something too grandiose. Maybe 'intention' is better. Can you get out of bed without intention? Or go to the bathroom? Or eat dinner? I totally get what you are saying about broadening the context, but I would say that requires intention, values and desired outcome e.g a recognition that you don't like the sensation of looking at the photo and experiencing 'dislike', and because you value 'peace', you move your attention to the broader context. That could easily be described as wisdom I reckon. There's a difference between action for the sake of an outcome and action without forethought or intention, spontaneity. When I was a child I enjoyed washing the dishes. Then they became chore. No more joy. |
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Post by andrew on Nov 21, 2022 13:35:48 GMT -5
How do more things get done without 'purpose'? Ahhhh...maybe 'purpose' is not a good word here, and implies something too grandiose. Maybe 'intention' is better. Can you get out of bed without intention? Or go to the bathroom? Or eat dinner? I totally get what you are saying about broadening the context, but I would say that requires intention, values and desired outcome e.g a recognition that you don't like the sensation of looking at the photo and experiencing 'dislike', and because you value 'peace', you move your attention to the broader context. That could easily be described as wisdom I reckon. There's a difference between action for the sake of an outcome and action without forethought or intention, spontaneity. When I was a child I enjoyed washing the dishes. Then they became chore. No more joy. Oh definitely! That's a distinction well worth noting. Though I would say that there's still an outcome involved for the child, the outcome is just 'play' or 'enjoyment'. Being an adult in our world sucks in so many ways...responsibility can be a tremendous burden. In a way, I think we are all still children really, just bigger children, trying to fulfil the world's expectation of what it means to be an 'adult'. |
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 21, 2022 13:49:50 GMT -5
There's a difference between action for the sake of an outcome and action without forethought or intention, spontaneity. When I was a child I enjoyed washing the dishes. Then they became chore. No more joy. Oh definitely! That's a distinction well worth noting. Though I would say that there's still an outcome involved for the child, the outcome is just 'play' or 'enjoyment'. Being an adult in our world sucks in so many ways...responsibility can be a tremendous burden. In a way, I think we are all still children really, just bigger children, trying to fulfil the world's expectation of what it means to be an 'adult'. Brought back to my sensei, when a new person came to the Zendo and exclaimed after the meditation session, while drinking the tea, that the Zendo had an enlightened vibe. Sensei replied if "you came here for enlightenment, you came to the wrong place, if you came here to sit, you came to the right place. " That exchange put everything in perspective. You can keep pushing that rock up the hill only to have it roll back down the other side. In other words, happiness tied to outcomes, expectations, is a roller coaster ride. Or you can enjoy the art of rock pushing. You might lose a war though. Look at the movie, "The Last Samurai." |
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Post by andrew on Nov 21, 2022 14:05:49 GMT -5
Oh definitely! That's a distinction well worth noting. Though I would say that there's still an outcome involved for the child, the outcome is just 'play' or 'enjoyment'. Being an adult in our world sucks in so many ways...responsibility can be a tremendous burden. In a way, I think we are all still children really, just bigger children, trying to fulfil the world's expectation of what it means to be an 'adult'. Brought back to my sensei, when a new person came to the Zendo and exclaimed after the meditation session, while drinking the tea, that the Zendo had an enlightened vibe. Sensei replied if "you came here for enlightenment, you came to the wrong place, if you came here to sit, you came to the right place. " That exchange put everything in perspective. You can keep pushing that rock up the hill only to have it roll back down the other side. In other words, happiness tied to outcomes, expectations, is a roller coaster ride. Or you can enjoy the art of rock pushing. You might lose a war though. Look at the movie, "The Last Samurai." Like. I haven't seen the film, but it's been on my list of 'films I might watch one day', for a long time. With highly respected films, I try to make sure that I am in the mood to give it full attention, but rarely am I in that mood, and so invariably end up with a Chevy Chase or Steve Martin film, which in their own way, are therapy for me. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 21, 2022 17:06:25 GMT -5
There's a picture of a family friend who despises me for whatever reason, never thought to analyze it. But staring at her picture, I feel the ill-will and hostility in my throat. Strangely if I picture her body in my mind's eye, my reaction to her shifts. She has an amazing physique. It's interesting how this can happen so easily and quickly, this shift. I've also noticed that if I focus on the reaction to her picture without trying to stop it or analyze it and then try to notice where it appears, the vastness in which it appears. It's a very different experience than the norm of reaction, memory, thought storm about stopping the negative feelings or justifying them. The other day, I noticed myself feeling judgy about a guy at the gym posing in front of the mirror. It suddenly dawned on me that I orchestrated the whole event. I was reminded of the story of the monk in a free floating boat enjoying the sky who was struck by another boat and jumped up to angrily confront the other wreckless boater and found that the other boat was empty. Perspective seems to shift reactions. They seem quite fickle. So much of our angry reactions relates to expectation, and expectation relates to purposeful action (or the outcome we are wanting to achieve/create). Where there is purpose, there is expectation. Depending on what our desired outcome is, if our expectation is thwarted, we will experience anger/ill will. Animals are purposeful too, and expectation is built into that. The neighbours cat purposefully chases me round the kitchen and miows at me with the expectation of a snack. But I don't sense anger in the cat if I don't supply the goods. Humans are more likely to experience anger because we are complex, and we consciously associate conditions with feeling and states of being. Our outcomes are multi-layered. Animals don't make that association and have simpler outcomes/expectations. I backpacked when I was younger, one day I went into a youth hostal room where a girl was meditating. I started talking to my friend, and she got very angry at us for disturbing her peace So yeah, we shift our perspective, because we have shifted our desired outcome (and expectation). I used to (and still do, to an extent) have a 'problem' with what we could call 'indecision'. I learned a lot from cats about how to be at peace when there is indecision. A cat will sometimes move backwards and forwards through a door (usually a door to the outside). In, out, in, out, in, out, in, out.... A cat can do this for half an hour in total peace. It has no 'outcome' of 'being decisive' or 'making a choice'. There's no emotional outcome either. When I used to do something similar, I used to get very stressed. These days, I just recognize it as energy movement, there's no strong path either way. So sometimes I will go backwards and forwards on something until one path becomes stronger. It's fine usually. I can write a message and then sit with it for 10 minutes in 'indecision'. Sometimes I delete, sometimes I post. Different desired outcome these days. Different expectation. It's okay. It is interesting to see how a reaction to a perception is located on the scale instinct-emotion-intellect-intuition. Some people don't pay enough attention to the distinctions between those terms, or use confusing definitions, so they find difficult to adequately respond. Animals are dominated by instincts, have rudimentary emotions, and incipient intellect, with variations among species, and among the individuals of a species. In your example it can be seen how the cat's less evolved intellect, as well as the dominance of his instincts, induce a different response than that of an average human, who mostly mastered his instincts, is dominated by his emotions, has a rudimentary intellect (not used here with any pejorative connotation), and incipient intuition. It is important to differentiate between emotions and intuitions, as the former are more likely to yield a less adequate response than the latter. Also, a rudimentary intellect can detrimentally affect decision and response. |
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