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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 17:23:27 GMT -5
Perhaps Sree's is a Rabbit.. That's on a repeating loop, we don't know what happened. “The Turtle” Chuang Tzu with his bamboo pole Was fising in Pu river. The prince of Chu Sent two vice-chancellors With a formal document: “We hereby appoint you Prime Minister.” Chuang Tzu held his bamboo pole Still watching Pu river, He said: “I am told there is a sacred tortoise, Offered and canonized Three thousand years ago, Venerated by the prince, Wrapped in silk, In a precious shrine On an altar In the Temple. “What do you think : Is it better to give up one’s life And leave a sacred shell As an object of cult In a cloud of incense Three thousand years, Or better to live As a plain turtle Dragging its tail in the mud?” “For the turtle,” said the Vice-Chancellor, “Better to live And drag its tail in the mud.” “Go home!” said Chuang Tzu. “Leave me here To drag my tail in the mud!” from The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton (He said this was his favorite book). Page 93.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 23:19:45 GMT -5
Just caught up with this conversation and it made me realize that Buddha must have foreseen this kind of complicated dialogue and therefore kept it simple by saying, "I have come to teach the nature of suffering and the cessation of suffering."
That is the be all and end all of it. Everything derives from that. From a state of suffering.
If there was no suffering there would be no such thing as spirituality or religion. This forum wouldn't even exist.
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Post by laughter on Sept 2, 2022 1:28:24 GMT -5
Sometimes, for some folks, I guess a process of coming to clarity can be stressful. I'm sorry if that's the way it is for you. Truly, not condescending. Why should coming to clarity be stressful?
In terms of what I meant, I've got no first hand experience with that sort of stress, so I'd have to speculate and theorize. Of course I've been in distress at various times in my life, but by the time I became conscious of the search - call it the spiritual search, self-inquiry, existential questioning, whatever - there was no stress involved with it. I am trying to figure why you guys are walking upside down instead of right side up. I am not going to attempt walking upside down until I understand the real benefit (i.e. living without suffering in the real world). I have already pointed out that no one engaged in living in the real world would understand what you are saying and find you weird. What benefit has your clarity conferred on you? The Catholic priest would say that he has found the Kingdom of Heaven.
Hey, check this out. I got curious as to whether there was any nexus between T.S. Elliot and J. Krishnamurti. Didn't find one, not direct anyway. But I found this, that connects the two through Aldous Huxley. The stanza of Elliot's verse quoted is directly applicable to yesterday's dialog in this thread:
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Post by laughter on Sept 2, 2022 1:34:07 GMT -5
Ok then. Perhaps "non-rational"? The point here is a recurring theme: an absence. So, not irrational, just not ... rational. Neither thought nor emotion can express such "understandings", not directly. Some will say that poetry can come the closest. Have you ever read this? From what little I know of J. Krishnamurti, it would seem to me a poem most resonant with his content. I did try to read it but I can't do more than ten lines or so. I don't like poetry. I like peeps to spit it out. Say it in as few words as possible. My impatience comes from my father. Mom is the reader.
Spirituality, to me, must make sense and be even relevant to a dog. If it can only be transmitted through words, then it is not universal. It is for the educated mind and a cultivated taste.
Well I wasn't referring to transmission, rather, simply ways that people come to understand one another.
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Post by laughter on Sept 2, 2022 1:36:25 GMT -5
He has trashed me. He has trashed everybody as a whole. It's easier to remember the trashing. I've never used the ignore button. I'd rather try to ignore, without the button, a test. I've been fairly successful. Basically, the trashing cancels out all the good. Much of that trashing is just troll-trash talk. Nothing really serious goin' on. I understand what I perceive and would characterize as your annoyance with it though.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 8:23:51 GMT -5
Just caught up with this conversation and it made me realize that Buddha must have foreseen this kind of complicated dialogue and therefore kept it simple by saying, "I have come to teach the nature of suffering and the cessation of suffering." That is the be all and end all of it. Everything derives from that. From a state of suffering. If there was no suffering there would be no such thing as spirituality or religion. This forum wouldn't even exist. For some people that may be true, but remember that many people are seekers solely because of curiosity and suffering is not the driver of their search.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 8:39:53 GMT -5
Just caught up with this conversation and it made me realize that Buddha must have foreseen this kind of complicated dialogue and therefore kept it simple by saying, "I have come to teach the nature of suffering and the cessation of suffering." That is the be all and end all of it. Everything derives from that. From a state of suffering. If there was no suffering there would be no such thing as spirituality or religion. This forum wouldn't even exist. For some people that may be true, but remember that many people are seekers solely because of curiosity and suffering is not the driver of their search. I cannot agree. I think the Buddha nailed it by identifying suffering caused by craving and grasping. Even if there was no suffering there would still be curiosity about the world. There will always be curiosity about making discoveries and inventing stuff and learning new things just for the sake of it. But curiosity as a driver of the search? What would the search be for? If there was no suffering then there would be no feeling of lack and unfulfillment. There would only be a search if you felt you had to find something. But if there was no suffering you would be complete and fulfilled and there would be nothing to look for.
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Post by sree on Sept 2, 2022 9:02:15 GMT -5
Just caught up with this conversation and it made me realize that Buddha must have foreseen this kind of complicated dialogue and therefore kept it simple by saying, "I have come to teach the nature of suffering and the cessation of suffering." That is the be all and end all of it. Everything derives from that. From a state of suffering. If there was no suffering there would be no such thing as spirituality or religion. This forum wouldn't even exist.Agree. No suffering, not just an absence of personal bodily/mental suffering. Like the "Buddha", I was awakened by the suffering I saw around me in the world I lived in when I was a kid even though the sufferers were not complaining.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 9:08:44 GMT -5
For some people that may be true, but remember that many people are seekers solely because of curiosity and suffering is not the driver of their search. I cannot agree. I think the Buddha nailed it by identifying suffering caused by craving and grasping. Even if there was no suffering there would still be curiosity about the world. There will always be curiosity about making discoveries and inventing stuff and learning new things just for the sake of it. But curiosity as a driver of the search? What would the search be for? If there was no suffering then there would be no feeling of lack and unfulfillment. There would only be a search if you felt you had to find something. But if there was no suffering you would be complete and fulfilled and there would be nothing to look for. Yes, one could define curiosity as a form of suffering, but only if one expanded the definition of suffering a lot more broadly than the conventional definition. As one sage put it, "The desire for truth is the only worthwhile desire." Those who are driven by curiosity intuitively suspect that the conventional explanation regarding the nature of reality is somehow flawed, but they don't know how. They certainly don't suffer in any ordinary sense. They are exactly like scientists who search for explanations regarding conceptual issues. Was Einstein suffering when he contemplated discrepancies between the scientific paradigm of his time period and the conceptual framework that supported it? I think not. In fact, most scientists I know ENJOY the process of scientific investigation and discovery. Enjoyment doesn't seem like a component of suffering.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 9:14:49 GMT -5
I cannot agree. I think the Buddha nailed it by identifying suffering caused by craving and grasping. Even if there was no suffering there would still be curiosity about the world. There will always be curiosity about making discoveries and inventing stuff and learning new things just for the sake of it. But curiosity as a driver of the search? What would the search be for? If there was no suffering then there would be no feeling of lack and unfulfillment. There would only be a search if you felt you had to find something. But if there was no suffering you would be complete and fulfilled and there would be nothing to look for. Yes, one could define curiosity as a form of suffering, but only if one expanded the definition of suffering a lot more broadly than the conventional definition. As one sage put it, "The desire for truth is the only worthwhile desire." Those who are driven by curiosity intuitively suspect that the conventional explanation regarding the nature of reality is somehow flawed, but they don't know how. They certainly don't suffer in any ordinary sense. They are exactly like scientists who search for explanations regarding conceptual issues. Was Einstein suffering when he contemplated discrepancies between the scientific paradigm of his time period and the conceptual framework that supported it? I think not. In fact, most scientists I know ENJOY the process of scientific investigation and discovery. Yes that's what I said. Curiosity about the world will be there whether there is suffering or not. Curiosity isn't suffering. But trying to find some ultimate truth about oneself is a completely different matter. If you're not suffering then you won't feel you are lacking in anything just like the Buddha when he lived in his Palace. But that all changed when he left the palace and saw death and suffering outside.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 2, 2022 9:34:52 GMT -5
Why should coming to clarity be stressful?
In terms of what I meant, I've got no first hand experience with that sort of stress, so I'd have to speculate and theorize. Of course I've been in distress at various times in my life, but by the time I became conscious of the search - call it the spiritual search, self-inquiry, existential questioning, whatever - there was no stress involved with it. I am trying to figure why you guys are walking upside down instead of right side up. I am not going to attempt walking upside down until I understand the real benefit (i.e. living without suffering in the real world). I have already pointed out that no one engaged in living in the real world would understand what you are saying and find you weird. What benefit has your clarity conferred on you? The Catholic priest would say that he has found the Kingdom of Heaven.
Hey, check this out. I got curious as to whether there was any nexus between T.S. Elliot and J. Krishnamurti. Didn't find one, not direct anyway. But I found this, that connects the two through Aldous Huxley. The stanza of Elliot's verse quoted is directly applicable to yesterday's dialog in this thread: Yes, I knew of the connection between Huxley and Krishnamurti. Huxley gives an Introduction to Krishnamurti's book: J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Foreword by Aldous Huxley
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Post by sree on Sept 2, 2022 9:35:49 GMT -5
For some people that may be true, but remember that many people are seekers solely because of curiosity and suffering is not the driver of their search. I cannot agree. I think the Buddha nailed it by identifying suffering caused by craving and grasping. Even if there was no suffering there would still be curiosity about the world. There will always be curiosity about making discoveries and inventing stuff and learning new things just for the sake of it. But curiosity as a driver of the search? What would the search be for? If there was no suffering then there would be no feeling of lack and unfulfillment. There would only be a search if you felt you had to find something. But if there was no suffering you would be complete and fulfilled and there would be nothing to look for. Exactly! Necessity is the mother of all invention. Necessity triggers curiosity. Seekers have the necessity to escape suffering. This is selfish cowardice.
In my opinion, the "Buddha"'s necessity, that triggered his curiosity, was to end universal suffering.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 9:38:39 GMT -5
Yes, one could define curiosity as a form of suffering, but only if one expanded the definition of suffering a lot more broadly than the conventional definition. As one sage put it, "The desire for truth is the only worthwhile desire." Those who are driven by curiosity intuitively suspect that the conventional explanation regarding the nature of reality is somehow flawed, but they don't know how. They certainly don't suffer in any ordinary sense. They are exactly like scientists who search for explanations regarding conceptual issues. Was Einstein suffering when he contemplated discrepancies between the scientific paradigm of his time period and the conceptual framework that supported it? I think not. In fact, most scientists I know ENJOY the process of scientific investigation and discovery. Yes that's what I said. Curiosity about the world will be there whether there is suffering or not. Curiosity isn't suffering. But trying to find some ultimate truth about oneself is a completely different matter. If you're not suffering then you won't feel you are lacking in anything just like the Buddha when he lived in his Palace. But that all changed when he left the palace and saw death and suffering outside. Well, some of us who were driven by curiosity did not think that we were searching for some ultimate truth about ourselves. We simply wanted to understand things that we saw that didn't make sense. As one trivial example, in a logic course the instructor explained that good decision making requires listing the pros and cons regarding some decision, and the preponderance of items on one list versus the other list would make it clear which decision to make. I knew, from my own experience, that his assertion was absurd because people frequently choose to do things despite a preponderance of reasons NOT to do those things. It seemed to me that the entire field of logic was floating in mid-air, so to speak, and that there must be something fundamental and unseen underlying it if there were any validity to it. As another example, a physics professor claimed that subatomic particles sometimes move from point A to point B without crossing the space between those two points. What could explain that kind of statement? There was also the observer paradox that permeates all of the scientific disciplines. There were dozens of other issues of a similar nature, but they all led me to intuit that scientists were overlooking something fundamental, but I didn't know what it was. I didn't feel that I was lacking anything other than an explanation that might resolve the paradoxes that I saw. You wrote, "Curiosity isn't suffering." That was my point. I'm well aware that a lot of people searching for the truth are driven by suffering, but that's NOT what drives the search for people whose motivation is solely curiosity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 9:39:35 GMT -5
I cannot agree. I think the Buddha nailed it by identifying suffering caused by craving and grasping. Even if there was no suffering there would still be curiosity about the world. There will always be curiosity about making discoveries and inventing stuff and learning new things just for the sake of it. But curiosity as a driver of the search? What would the search be for? If there was no suffering then there would be no feeling of lack and unfulfillment. There would only be a search if you felt you had to find something. But if there was no suffering you would be complete and fulfilled and there would be nothing to look for. Exactly! Necessity is the mother of all invention. Necessity triggers curiosity. Seekers have the necessity to escape suffering. This is selfish cowardice.
In my opinion, the "Buddha"'s necessity, that triggered his curiosity, was to end universal suffering. But suffering doesn't mean you will become a seeker.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 9:42:30 GMT -5
Yes that's what I said. Curiosity about the world will be there whether there is suffering or not. Curiosity isn't suffering. But trying to find some ultimate truth about oneself is a completely different matter. If you're not suffering then you won't feel you are lacking in anything just like the Buddha when he lived in his Palace. But that all changed when he left the palace and saw death and suffering outside. Well, some of us who were driven by curiosity did not think that we were searching for some ultimate truth about ourselves. We simply wanted to understand things that we saw that didn't make sense. As one trivial example, in a logic course the instructor explained that good decision making requires listing the pros and cons regarding some decision, and the preponderance of items on one list versus the other list would make it clear which decision to make. I knew, from my own experience, that his assertion was absurd because people frequently choose to do things despite a preponderance of reasons NOT to do those things. It seemed to me that the entire field of logic was floating in mid-air, so to speak, and that there must be something fundamental and unseen underlying it if there were any validity to it. As another example, a physics professor claimed that subatomic particles sometimes move from point A to point B without crossing the space between those two points. What could explain that kind of statement? There was also the observer paradox that permeates all of the scientific disciplines. There were dozens of other issues of a similar nature, but they all led me to intuit that scientists were overlooking something fundamental, but I didn't know what it was. I didn't feel that I was lacking anything other than an explanation that might resolve the paradoxes that I saw. You wrote, "Curiosity isn't suffering." That was my point. I'm well aware that a lot of people searching for the truth are driven by suffering, but that's NOT what drives the search for people whose motivation is solely curiosity. What you are describing here is not the search for liberation. You are talking about the relative field of existence. This is not spirituality.
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