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Post by sree on Sept 1, 2022 9:41:21 GMT -5
Why should coming to clarity be stressful? I am trying to figure why you guys are walking upside down instead of right side up. I am not going to attempt walking upside down until I understand the real benefit (i.e. living without suffering in the real world). I have already pointed out that no one engaged in living in the real world would understand what you are saying and find you weird. What benefit has your clarity conferred on you? The Catholic priest would say that he has found the Kingdom of Heaven.
Not true. Many people who "live in the real world" understand exactly what we are saying (pointing to). Whether they find us weird or not is their problem, not ours. Of course, they do. I understood my grandma's love of Jesus also. I never tried to tell her that Jesus was a myth. My hygienist is a wonderful, gentle woman. She is an evangelist Christian. I understood exactly why she was fearful because of the end times coming upon us. The signs are there: Covid pandemic, Ukraine war, and conflict in the Mid-East.
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Post by andrew on Sept 1, 2022 11:04:39 GMT -5
well, in my relationships, I'm less reactive, more empathic, more intelligent (maybe ). I'm able to be open to different solutions and although I'm not always okay to be wrong, it's not because I'm intrinsically interested in defending a self-image. So, I think this trans/non-rational comprehension improves my close relationships. I am going to share this with you before I lose that scent, that "perfume" as Krishnamurti termed it. (I am not pushing Krishnamurti teaching. I feel the need to cite him when I use phrases or words he used.) Anyway, I went for a walk this morning. I live in an urban forest. As I was walking and observing the scene: the sidewalk I was on, the surrounding trees, it occurred to me that the state of impermanence (I am using Buddhist lingo here) is a fact. Everything comes and goes. Not a tree, sidewalk, road, or houses remains as is. Nothing remains the same and unchanging. The sun is always there, obviously; but it moves constantly. At any rate, I felt this sense of constant change. The body grows old, dies, and disappears like the melting snow. The observer. It's me. Not me, the person or self, but this state of observation. It seems unconnected to and yet is the scene, the observed itself. This "unconnectedness" pointed to a sense of permanence only because of its all enveloping presence. I have to stop here because more words will muck this up. Your mention of groking and all that trans-rational stuff are what I am alluding to. I am not writing all this out to corroborate the spiritual bs from members in this forum. Spirituality is about this real world and concerned with our practical daily lives. It has protected me thus far. Your finding your wife resonated with me. I hope I am right and you have not been shouting at each other like Laffy and Sue.
Well, that was very pleasant to read Is it fair to say that in that experience of impermanence and ceaseless change, the sense of boundaries is somewhat absent? If so, that's a 'non-rational' experience, similar or the same, as what I was talking about. Does that state you describe have any practical value?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 1, 2022 13:08:33 GMT -5
sree-dude, do you have ____ _ ____ ____ ___ _ _____? It answers perfectly your question about evil, and the solution. Let's not be presumptuous. If only we are of one mind, then the world would not be a splintered mess. This is why I need to be careful: make sure I understand you. Case in point: I asked Laffy what the body is made of and that conversation went to hell in a handbasket.
Is there a question in there?
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Post by sree on Sept 1, 2022 13:21:44 GMT -5
I am going to share this with you before I lose that scent, that "perfume" as Krishnamurti termed it. (I am not pushing Krishnamurti teaching. I feel the need to cite him when I use phrases or words he used.) Anyway, I went for a walk this morning. I live in an urban forest. As I was walking and observing the scene: the sidewalk I was on, the surrounding trees, it occurred to me that the state of impermanence (I am using Buddhist lingo here) is a fact. Everything comes and goes. Not a tree, sidewalk, road, or houses remains as is. Nothing remains the same and unchanging. The sun is always there, obviously; but it moves constantly. At any rate, I felt this sense of constant change. The body grows old, dies, and disappears like the melting snow. The observer. It's me. Not me, the person or self, but this state of observation. It seems unconnected to and yet is the scene, the observed itself. This "unconnectedness" pointed to a sense of permanence only because of its all enveloping presence. I have to stop here because more words will muck this up. Your mention of groking and all that trans-rational stuff are what I am alluding to. I am not writing all this out to corroborate the spiritual bs from members in this forum. Spirituality is about this real world and concerned with our practical daily lives. It has protected me thus far. Your finding your wife resonated with me. I hope I am right and you have not been shouting at each other like Laffy and Sue.
Well, that was very pleasant to read Is it fair to say that in that experience of impermanence and ceaseless change, the sense of boundaries is somewhat absent? If so, that's a 'non-rational' experience, similar or the same, as what I was talking about.
Does that state you describe have any practical value?No, it is not "non-rational". Also, it was not an actual experience. As I said, it was a sense of permanence that seemed unconnected to the impermanence.
Let's examine why I assert that it is rational. Impermanence is perceivable against a background of permanence. The former cannot materialize without contrasting with the latter. Have you not experienced being in a stationary train and watching, through the window, the other train starting to move only to realize that it is your train that is pulling out of the station? This is how we perceive movement. No object's movement is detectable or measurable in isolation. You read about this in the Tao Te Ching: no up without down, no here without there, no ugliness without beauty, etc.
What do you mean by "the sense of boundaries is somewhat absent"? Boundaries of what? I was walking in a general direction. My focus was not directed at anything in particular. Things were there. The trees, the sidewalk, a chipmunk darting here and there.
That state have immense practical value. By "that state", I mean that sense of unconnectedness. It alters your perception fundamentally and completely. It protects you by putting you out of harm's way. It heightens awareness. It makes you the lead deer instead of being a mindless one that ends up in the tiger's jaw. It comes with a price, though. No going to sleep. Constant awareness.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 1, 2022 13:22:31 GMT -5
You are wrong on this. Krishnamurti was against rubber-stamp religion. You know he loved Buddha? You never even understood Krishnamurti, period. You know what Thomas Jefferson did? He made his own New Testament, he cut out the passages he liked concerning Jesus, threw out the rest. Today it's called The Jefferson Bible, you can buy one. You admittedly did this to Krishnamurti. You took a black Sharpie and marked out what you don't like about Krishnamurti. Jesus did comment on politics, he said: Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. I am not done discussing your life experience yet. I guess we can branch off into something else you find important enough to thrash out.
Each of us is a window on reality, as Gopal said. My departure from Gopal's take is that each window is a viewpoint of an unique reality unconnected to every other except on technical matters. (Gopal's windows are all from the same guy: The Infinite.)
For example, your window on the wiring in the house shows the same thing as that seen by your co-workers; otherwise, your boss would have kicked some asses. If the people running our government functioned like the way electricians do on the job, the country would hum along like the power grid running China's high speed rail system.
Apart from the reality of our technical world where screw-ups matter to all, there is a world where rules-based order is imposed by the bully. In this world, you call the shots. If you say I am wrong on this or that, it's final. It's your wiring plan for the universe. The boatman has to be right on the money or he loses cred. The need to be right is a mental disease. I guess I must be the biggest sicko in this forum because I am certain that you all are dead wrong.
If you are certain we are all dead wrong, why are you trying to dialogue with us? There is only one answer to this.
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Post by sree on Sept 1, 2022 13:23:13 GMT -5
Let's not be presumptuous. If only we are of one mind, then the world would not be a splintered mess. This is why I need to be careful: make sure I understand you. Case in point: I asked Laffy what the body is made of and that conversation went to hell in a handbasket.
Is there a question in there? Yes, back there when I asked what was said that made you cry?
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Post by sree on Sept 1, 2022 13:32:46 GMT -5
I am not done discussing your life experience yet. I guess we can branch off into something else you find important enough to thrash out.
Each of us is a window on reality, as Gopal said. My departure from Gopal's take is that each window is a viewpoint of an unique reality unconnected to every other except on technical matters. (Gopal's windows are all from the same guy: The Infinite.)
For example, your window on the wiring in the house shows the same thing as that seen by your co-workers; otherwise, your boss would have kicked some asses. If the people running our government functioned like the way electricians do on the job, the country would hum along like the power grid running China's high speed rail system.
Apart from the reality of our technical world where screw-ups matter to all, there is a world where rules-based order is imposed by the bully. In this world, you call the shots. If you say I am wrong on this or that, it's final. It's your wiring plan for the universe. The boatman has to be right on the money or he loses cred. The need to be right is a mental disease. I guess I must be the biggest sicko in this forum because I am certain that you all are dead wrong.
If you are certain we are all dead wrong, why are you trying to dialogue with us? There is only one answer to this. Forget your answer. I will give you mine.
Just because you are all dead wrong, it doesn't make me right. As I had pointed out, everyone of you is another me. I am talking to myselves here. It's like playing tennis with myself. I have to beat everyone, returning all your shots to hone my skill.
Give me your best shot, man.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 1, 2022 13:35:13 GMT -5
Is there a question in there? Yes, back there when I asked what was said that made you cry? It was just the wisdom of Gandhi. The guy had smashed in the head of a Muslim. He was in terrible guilt over this, he said he was in hell. He asked Gandhi if there was a way out of his hellish guilt. Gandhi told him to find an orphan Muslim child, and raise the child himself, and he being a Hindu, must raise the child as a Muslim. I don't know why you trash people so here. I don't know why you think you are wiser than anyone else here. Does that give you permission to trash people? You write disparagingly of everyone here. That can mean only one thing.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 1, 2022 13:36:25 GMT -5
If you are certain we are all dead wrong, why are you trying to dialogue with us? There is only one answer to this. Forget your answer. I will give you mine. Just because you are all dead wrong, it doesn't make me right. As I had pointed out, everyone of you is another me. I am talking to myselves here. It's like playing tennis with myself. I have to beat everyone, returning all your shots to hone my skill. Give me your best shot, man.
Not interested.
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Post by sree on Sept 1, 2022 13:50:40 GMT -5
No, it is not a useful pointer. "trans-rational" is as meaningless as "trans-woman" to me. I am not being facetious. I don't accept the rationalization of gender at Psychology Today. I guess I am a minority dissenter on the gender issue in western society. Am I a minority dissenter on trans-rational comprehension" of reality in this forum? Holding a minority opinion as Supreme Court justice on a legal matter is ok. I don't think holding a dissenting view of reality is ok unless truth about reality is a matter of opinion also.
Ok then. Perhaps "non-rational"? The point here is a recurring theme: an absence. So, not irrational, just not ... rational. Neither thought nor emotion can express such "understandings", not directly. Some will say that poetry can come the closest. Have you ever read this? From what little I know of J. Krishnamurti, it would seem to me a poem most resonant with his content. I did try to read it but I can't do more than ten lines or so. I don't like poetry. I like peeps to spit it out. Say it in as few words as possible. My impatience comes from my father. Mom is the reader.
Spirituality, to me, must make sense and be even relevant to a dog. If it can only be transmitted through words, then it is not universal. It is for the educated mind and a cultivated taste.
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Post by sree on Sept 1, 2022 14:27:06 GMT -5
Yes, back there when I asked what was said that made you cry? It was just the wisdom of Gandhi. The guy had smashed in the head of a Muslim. He was in terrible guilt over this, he said he was in hell. He asked Gandhi if there was a way out of his hellish guilt. Gandhi told him to find an orphan Muslim child, and raise the child himself, and he being a Hindu, must raise the child as a Muslim. I don't know why you trash people so here. I don't know why you think you are wiser than anyone else here. Does that give you permission to trash people? You write disparagingly of everyone here. That can mean only one thing. I still don't see how your tears were triggered. I wonder if that movie clip would have made Gopal cried too. He is culturally closer to the killing of Muslims in India. In this clip below, the Muslims were the aggressors and smashed some heads also.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 14:33:23 GMT -5
Yes, back there when I asked what was said that made you cry? It was just the wisdom of Gandhi. The guy had smashed in the head of a Muslim. He was in terrible guilt over this, he said he was in hell. He asked Gandhi if there was a way out of his hellish guilt. Gandhi told him to find an orphan Muslim child, and raise the child himself, and he being a Hindu, must raise the child as a Muslim. I don't know why you trash people so here. I don't know why you think you are wiser than anyone else here. Does that give you permission to trash people? You write disparagingly of everyone here. That can mean only one thing. That he's found an effective way to trigger, what has been called of late.. the boatman?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 14:34:32 GMT -5
I am not done discussing your life experience yet. I guess we can branch off into something else you find important enough to thrash out.
Each of us is a window on reality, as Gopal said. My departure from Gopal's take is that each window is a viewpoint of an unique reality unconnected to every other except on technical matters. (Gopal's windows are all from the same guy: The Infinite.)
For example, your window on the wiring in the house shows the same thing as that seen by your co-workers; otherwise, your boss would have kicked some asses. If the people running our government functioned like the way electricians do on the job, the country would hum along like the power grid running China's high speed rail system.
Apart from the reality of our technical world where screw-ups matter to all, there is a world where rules-based order is imposed by the bully. In this world, you call the shots. If you say I am wrong on this or that, it's final. It's your wiring plan for the universe. The boatman has to be right on the money or he loses cred. The need to be right is a mental disease. I guess I must be the biggest sicko in this forum because I am certain that you all are dead wrong.
If you are certain we are all dead wrong, why are you trying to dialogue with us? There is only one answer to this. There's never only one answer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 14:49:12 GMT -5
Yes, back there when I asked what was said that made you cry? It was just the wisdom of Gandhi. The guy had smashed in the head of a Muslim. He was in terrible guilt over this, he said he was in hell. He asked Gandhi if there was a way out of his hellish guilt. Gandhi told him to find an orphan Muslim child, and raise the child himself, and he being a Hindu, must raise the child as a Muslim. I don't know why you trash people so here. I don't know why you think you are wiser than anyone else here. Does that give you permission to trash people? You write disparagingly of everyone here. That can mean only one thing. Not true Pilgrim. I commend you on your on-going struggle to stay alive.
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Post by andrew on Sept 1, 2022 14:52:40 GMT -5
Well, that was very pleasant to read Is it fair to say that in that experience of impermanence and ceaseless change, the sense of boundaries is somewhat absent? If so, that's a 'non-rational' experience, similar or the same, as what I was talking about.
Does that state you describe have any practical value?No, it is not "non-rational". Also, it was not an actual experience. As I said, it was a sense of permanence that seemed unconnected to the impermanence.
Let's examine why I assert that it is rational. Impermanence is perceivable against a background of permanence. The former cannot materialize without contrasting with the latter. Have you not experienced being in a stationary train and watching, through the window, the other train starting to move only to realize that it is your train that is pulling out of the station? This is how we perceive movement. No object's movement is detectable or measurable in isolation. You read about this in the Tao Te Ching: no up without down, no here without there, no ugliness without beauty, etc.
What do you mean by "the sense of boundaries is somewhat absent"? Boundaries of what? I was walking in a general direction. My focus was not directed at anything in particular. Things were there. The trees, the sidewalk, a chipmunk darting here and there.
That state have immense practical value. By "that state", I mean that sense of unconnectedness. It alters your perception fundamentally and completely. It protects you by putting you out of harm's way. It heightens awareness. It makes you the lead deer instead of being a mindless one that ends up in the tiger's jaw. It comes with a price, though. No going to sleep. Constant awareness.
Are you saying that the practical value of this 'state' or 'sense of unconnectedness' is that it helps you to survive in a dangerous world? Does it make you more alert to threats to your physicality? My view (and experience) is that when rational knowing is strongly dominant in our experience, the trees, the sidewalk, the chipmunks are experienced as objects that seem somewhat disparate, disconnected, lifeless even. When the rational aspect of mind is less dominant, and when non-rational knowing is available, there is a greater connectivity, a seemlessness, a unity even. There are still trees, chipmunks, sidewalks, but they are experienced in a different way.
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