|
Post by justlikeyou on Sept 27, 2021 18:30:23 GMT -5
I spent two years in England as an Air Force cop driving my American patrol car countless hours over a large airbase on the "wrong" side of the road. All was good until I came back to the states and did a u-turn on a near-deserted snowy road in the aftermath of the great blizzard of 78. I was sincerely perplexed and alarmed as to the appearance of some guy coming at us from the opposite direction and being on my side of the road. In the end though, he graciously accepted my profuse and deeply horrified apologies...before, during, and after we spent the better part of an hour digging his car out of a very, very large snow banking. I was going to use the example I've used before, we all agree for a stop light red means stop and green means go, predetermined, an agreement. Probably not a good analogy for the order we find in the natural world, from the intelligence which was seen ~{by zd}~ in CC. But I'm glad I changed my analogy...hearing your story. 😊
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 12, 2021 9:52:42 GMT -5
zd always says that in anything that occurs it is the movement of the Whole, there is never any individual choosing or doing because there isn't a self, period. Even if this is ultimately correct (if is a big word), it's disingenuous to say there is never any self-referential thinking and never in any sense is there a self which chooses. If any one person (even zd) likes chocolate ice cream over vanilla, or vice versa, but is adamant there isn't a self that chooses even in an ordinary sense, I'd say they are not being genuine. If a host simply asked, do you want vanilla or chocolate? They would never answer, the Whole as zd would like chocolate. IOW, everybody lives in the atmosphere of Buddha's two truths, whether they know it or admit it. Yet zd has denied this several times. I'm quite sure zd would merely say, chocolate (or vanilla). This has nothing to do with his Ground realizations (the absolute truth). zd has put himself above the Buddha even. And the Dalai Lama admits the utility of his ordinary persona. It takes two to Tango. I can't fully give my position, at best all I can do is leave a trail of bread crumbs. Just curious, but why would anyone want to follow a trail of breadcrumbs when you can't, or won't, explain where they lead (what your position is)? One of the reasons that I poke you a lot is because of what you claim is the secretive nature of G's teachings. The other reason is, as noted above, due to the intellectual nature of "levels" "triads" and numerous other ideas that seem to have no relevance to the simplicity and obviousness of THIS. As far as being asked whether I prefer one flavor of ice cream over another, why would you imagine that there is an SVP making any kind of choice, then or ever? Do you choose to fall in love? Do you choose to circulate blood in the body? Do you choose the thoughts that appear in the mind? Choice is an illusion that's part of the concensus paradigm. Gurdjieff taught that we are asleep. To wake up, we have to first realize we are asleep. It starts there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The link is advice Gurdjieff gave to a young daughter, just advice for ordinary life. But these can form a kind of base for the teaching, maybe later. I ran across again recently, thought I'd share. (The music in the background is from Gurdjieff).
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 10, 2021 0:56:54 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"):
Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster?
Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm...
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Dec 10, 2021 9:37:20 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... Agreed. Every path is different, and not everyone has to deal with the kind of emotional roller coaster and/or psychic darkness that Jeff, Jed, and others allude to. Furthermore, not everyone experiences a "dark night of the soul," self loathing, a "pain body," self doubt, self deception, etc. ZM Seung Sahn used to say that it's beneficial to attain a "strong center," which he apparently assumed is acquired by meditation, but which probably results from various life experiences and realizations. A strong center is characterized by things like not caring what anyone else thinks, trusting one's own judgment, knowing what one wants to do, knowing what one enjoys doing, etc. I once heard a dharma talk by a sage who said that people are like the old cartoon schmoos (Andy Capp?)--those bowling pin-shaped characters that had a small amount of ballast in the base. Anything could knock a schmoo over, and they would slowly return to an upright position because of the ballast (sort of like a sailboat). The sage likened meditation, focusing upon the present moment, and realizations to adding ballast, so that fewer and fewer life events could knock one over. I suspect that this is what ZM Seung Sahn was referring to by his "strong center" idea. Eventually one acquires so much ballast that nothing can affect one's stability. Some ND sages consider Jeff and Jed to be like "shock jocks" who appeal to a particular audience that is titillated by the way they write about ND, but they definitely only represent one end of the spectrum. Several years ago Jeff apparently believed that he had become enlightened, but at some point on the ND circuit he had to be honest with himself when he realized that selfhood was still present in a more subtle disguise. By that time he had an audience, so perhaps he decided to continue making a living by chronicling his continuing realizations about himself. Hard to know, but given what he's written in the past he would be one of the last people I would consider a trustworthy guide.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 10, 2021 9:57:52 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... Sekida devotes part of a chapter in Zen Training to the notion of "retracing your steps", which relates to "beginner's mind". But, from what little I've read of Jeff's prior writing, seems to me like he's riding a yo-yo. Look to him to eventually write about how the two extremes of the ruthless truth vs. the self-improvement hamster wheel has to be transcended.
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Dec 10, 2021 11:13:51 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... Whipsaw. "The parting on the left is now the parting on the right." Make it stop. "I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter."
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Dec 10, 2021 15:48:51 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... Agreed. Every path is different, and not everyone has to deal with the kind of emotional roller coaster and/or psychic darkness that Jeff, Jed, and others allude to. Furthermore, not everyone experiences a "dark night of the soul," self loathing, a "pain body," self doubt, self deception, etc. ZM Seung Sahn used to say that it's beneficial to attain a "strong center," which he apparently assumed is acquired by meditation, but which probably results from various life experiences and realizations. A strong center is characterized by things like not caring what anyone else thinks, trusting one's own judgment, knowing what one wants to do, knowing what one enjoys doing, etc. I once heard a dharma talk by a sage who said that people are like the old cartoon schmoos (Andy Capp?)--those bowling pin-shaped characters that had a small amount of ballast in the base. Anything could knock a schmoo over, and they would slowly return to an upright position because of the ballast (sort of like a sailboat). The sage likened meditation, focusing upon the present moment, and realizations to adding ballast, so that fewer and fewer life events could knock one over. I suspect that this is what ZM Seung Sahn was referring to by his "strong center" idea. Eventually one acquires so much ballast that nothing can affect one's stability. Some ND sages consider Jeff and Jed to be like "shock jocks" who appeal to a particular audience that is titillated by the way they write about ND, but they definitely only represent one end of the spectrum. Several years ago Jeff apparently believed that he had become enlightened, but at some point on the ND circuit he had to be honest with himself when he realized that selfhood was still present in a more subtle disguise. By that time he had an audience, so perhaps he decided to continue making a living by chronicling his continuing realizations about himself. Hard to know, but given what he's written in the past he would be one of the last people I would consider a trustworthy guide. He's been sick with Lyme Disease in the last year, dealing with brain fog, confusion and issues related to the illness. His messages in the last year have really just been documenting his journey with the illness. I could be wrong, but I don't think these posts have been about making a living...personally I've found them authentic and deep. Seems to me like there's an aspect of him that likes a challenge and that wants to experience life in many of its shades! But as you said, every path is different and unique, I agree that a 'dark night' is not necessary for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Dec 10, 2021 21:21:58 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... This quote doesn't recommend him. He seems to be out there to make a buck, no matter if he misleads / confuses others. There are people who like to hear words like his. He doesn't know, but he focuses on wrong things in wrong ways with counterproductive emotions. He won't get what he hopes he will.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Dec 10, 2021 21:28:06 GMT -5
Agreed. Every path is different, and not everyone has to deal with the kind of emotional roller coaster and/or psychic darkness that Jeff, Jed, and others allude to. Furthermore, not everyone experiences a "dark night of the soul," self loathing, a "pain body," self doubt, self deception, etc. ZM Seung Sahn used to say that it's beneficial to attain a "strong center," which he apparently assumed is acquired by meditation, but which probably results from various life experiences and realizations. A strong center is characterized by things like not caring what anyone else thinks, trusting one's own judgment, knowing what one wants to do, knowing what one enjoys doing, etc. I once heard a dharma talk by a sage who said that people are like the old cartoon schmoos (Andy Capp?)--those bowling pin-shaped characters that had a small amount of ballast in the base. Anything could knock a schmoo over, and they would slowly return to an upright position because of the ballast (sort of like a sailboat). The sage likened meditation, focusing upon the present moment, and realizations to adding ballast, so that fewer and fewer life events could knock one over. I suspect that this is what ZM Seung Sahn was referring to by his "strong center" idea. Eventually one acquires so much ballast that nothing can affect one's stability. Some ND sages consider Jeff and Jed to be like "shock jocks" who appeal to a particular audience that is titillated by the way they write about ND, but they definitely only represent one end of the spectrum. Several years ago Jeff apparently believed that he had become enlightened, but at some point on the ND circuit he had to be honest with himself when he realized that selfhood was still present in a more subtle disguise. By that time he had an audience, so perhaps he decided to continue making a living by chronicling his continuing realizations about himself. Hard to know, but given what he's written in the past he would be one of the last people I would consider a trustworthy guide. He's been sick with Lyme Disease in the last year, dealing with brain fog, confusion and issues related to the illness. His messages in the last year have really just been documenting his journey with the illness. I could be wrong, but I don't think these posts have been about making a living...personally I've found them authentic and deep. Seems to me like there's an aspect of him that likes a challenge and that wants to experience life in many of its shades! But as you said, every path is different and unique, I agree that a 'dark night' is not necessary for everyone. It doesn't matter how he is, how he comes through to others; it matters only what you get from him, how you interpret his words, his demeanor, his story. The message you get doesn't come from him; he's just a vehicle, like letters and words in a message.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 10, 2021 23:36:10 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... Agreed. Every path is different, and not everyone has to deal with the kind of emotional roller coaster and/or psychic darkness that Jeff, Jed, and others allude to. Furthermore, not everyone experiences a "dark night of the soul," self loathing, a "pain body," self doubt, self deception, etc. ZM Seung Sahn used to say that it's beneficial to attain a "strong center," which he apparently assumed is acquired by meditation, but which probably results from various life experiences and realizations. A strong center is characterized by things like not caring what anyone else thinks, trusting one's own judgment, knowing what one wants to do, knowing what one enjoys doing, etc. I once heard a dharma talk by a sage who said that people are like the old cartoon schmoos (Andy Capp?)--those bowling pin-shaped characters that had a small amount of ballast in the base. Anything could knock a schmoo over, and they would slowly return to an upright position because of the ballast (sort of like a sailboat). The sage likened meditation, focusing upon the present moment, and realizations to adding ballast, so that fewer and fewer life events could knock one over. I suspect that this is what ZM Seung Sahn was referring to by his "strong center" idea. Eventually one acquires so much ballast that nothing can affect one's stability. Some ND sages consider Jeff and Jed to be like "shock jocks" who appeal to a particular audience that is titillated by the way they write about ND, but they definitely only represent one end of the spectrum. Several years ago Jeff apparently believed that he had become enlightened, but at some point on the ND circuit he had to be honest with himself when he realized that selfhood was still present in a more subtle disguise. By that time he had an audience, so perhaps he decided to continue making a living by chronicling his continuing realizations about himself. Hard to know, but given what he's written in the past he would be one of the last people I would consider a trustworthy guide. I am not that familiar with Jeff, actually. But I think he falls into the neo-advaita category of teachers. I remember Dennis Waite having had some email conversations with him about traditional advaita vs. neo-advaita in the past, and Waite, who is not an advaita teacher but a scholar, also found Jeff to be rather underwhelming: www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/jeff_dialog.htmAnd yes, Jeff many years ago already had to face the fact that he wasn't actually where he thought he was on the path. And he has been refreshingly open about this, I remember. So I always assumed he finally had found peace of mind but reading what he has been posting lately, that's not peace of mind, that's monkey mind!
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 11, 2021 0:02:11 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... Sekida devotes part of a chapter in Zen Training to the notion of "retracing your steps", which relates to "beginner's mind". But, from what little I've read of Jeff's prior writing, seems to me like he's riding a yo-yo. Look to him to eventually write about how the two extremes of the ruthless truth vs. the self-improvement hamster wheel has to be transcended. I thought he was already past that. The brown bear cartoon seems to be based on his personal experiences after all. I've got his book, Life without a Center, but haven't read it. I'll check with the book. Maybe there are some hints.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 11, 2021 0:27:23 GMT -5
Agreed. Every path is different, and not everyone has to deal with the kind of emotional roller coaster and/or psychic darkness that Jeff, Jed, and others allude to. Furthermore, not everyone experiences a "dark night of the soul," self loathing, a "pain body," self doubt, self deception, etc. ZM Seung Sahn used to say that it's beneficial to attain a "strong center," which he apparently assumed is acquired by meditation, but which probably results from various life experiences and realizations. A strong center is characterized by things like not caring what anyone else thinks, trusting one's own judgment, knowing what one wants to do, knowing what one enjoys doing, etc. I once heard a dharma talk by a sage who said that people are like the old cartoon schmoos (Andy Capp?)--those bowling pin-shaped characters that had a small amount of ballast in the base. Anything could knock a schmoo over, and they would slowly return to an upright position because of the ballast (sort of like a sailboat). The sage likened meditation, focusing upon the present moment, and realizations to adding ballast, so that fewer and fewer life events could knock one over. I suspect that this is what ZM Seung Sahn was referring to by his "strong center" idea. Eventually one acquires so much ballast that nothing can affect one's stability. Some ND sages consider Jeff and Jed to be like "shock jocks" who appeal to a particular audience that is titillated by the way they write about ND, but they definitely only represent one end of the spectrum. Several years ago Jeff apparently believed that he had become enlightened, but at some point on the ND circuit he had to be honest with himself when he realized that selfhood was still present in a more subtle disguise. By that time he had an audience, so perhaps he decided to continue making a living by chronicling his continuing realizations about himself. Hard to know, but given what he's written in the past he would be one of the last people I would consider a trustworthy guide. He's been sick with Lyme Disease in the last year, dealing with brain fog, confusion and issues related to the illness. His messages in the last year have really just been documenting his journey with the illness. I could be wrong, but I don't think these posts have been about making a living...personally I've found them authentic and deep. Seems to me like there's an aspect of him that likes a challenge and that wants to experience life in many of its shades! But as you said, every path is different and unique, I agree that a 'dark night' is not necessary for everyone. Yes, that's correct. He hit rock bottom but seems to be recovering. Nevertheless, I can't help compare how he is dealing with his severe health situation and how Ramakrishna and Niz were dealing with their severe health situations. There's no comparison, really. I think these posts are just to give his followers some 'proof of life' because there are usually several months between these posts and his followers are obviously wondering what's going on with Jeff. And what he has been posting does indeed sound genuine. But these realizations he has been posting about, that's all awakening, pre-SR stuff. That's what I find a bit odd, giving his position and reputation in the ND satsang scene. But this just illustrates once again, as Ramakrishna pointed out, that not everyone can or should be a teacher: "Anyone and everyone cannot be a guru. A huge timber floats on the water and can carry animals as well. But a piece of worthless wood sinks, if a man sits on it, and drowns him. Therefore in every age God incarnates Himself as the guru, to teach humanity. Satchidananda alone is the guru." - RamakrishnaSo, traditionally, the bar is set rather high for teachers, but since ND has become some sort of fad, that bar has been lowered significantly over the years, especially in the West. Butt... to Jeff's credit, he is aware that what he is doing here will ruin his reputation. He wrote last year that these confessions, that he is struggling with what-is, will probably end his career. So I think he's just genuinely struggling to finally get on solid ground with this ND stuff and he's throwing out old anxieties and old habits (like trying to please others). So as disillusioning as his current antics may seem to his followers or anyone who may have considered him to be someone with true insight, I can only support his effort to get rid of any and all pretense, even if it kills his reputation and career as a spiritual teacher. So, keep going Jeff! And then maybe one day do another cartoon. ETA: The last post I read from him was titled "I SING OF DEATH TODAY!" ... that was several months ago. It seemed he was getting ready to transition, he seemed rather clear about that. So I was wondering if he was still around. And it seems he's back!
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 11, 2021 0:42:29 GMT -5
Here's the latest from Jeff, he seems to go thru an interesting transformation (I replaced "f u c k" with "duck", profanity filter changed "f u c k" into "x"): Now, does this sound like peace of mind or more like emotional roller-coaster? Actually, this almost reads like Jed McKenna. Which would mean Jeff is back to the awakening stage, square 1, the first step. Hmmm... This quote doesn't recommend him. He seems to be out there to make a buck, no matter if he misleads / confuses others. There are people who like to hear words like his. He doesn't know, but he focuses on wrong things in wrong ways with counterproductive emotions. He won't get what he hopes he will. Jeff usually writes sensitive and insightful stuff, a lot of it poetry. But this is McKenna stuff, the exact opposite. More like venting. I am assuming this must feel somehow freeing to him, maybe he felt being a teacher to be a burden, having to live up to certain standards and expectations, based on a false image and self-image, and he's finally done with it. In that sense, good for Jeff! But again, this is awakening/pre-SR stuff. This shouldn't even be a topic anymore given his spiritual resume. And yet it is! So on the one hand, it's somewhat disappointing, but seeing someone finding their own path and becoming truer to their true self, is also always exciting to watch.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Dec 11, 2021 5:47:59 GMT -5
He's been sick with Lyme Disease in the last year, dealing with brain fog, confusion and issues related to the illness. His messages in the last year have really just been documenting his journey with the illness. I could be wrong, but I don't think these posts have been about making a living...personally I've found them authentic and deep. Seems to me like there's an aspect of him that likes a challenge and that wants to experience life in many of its shades! But as you said, every path is different and unique, I agree that a 'dark night' is not necessary for everyone. It doesn't matter how he is, how he comes through to others; it matters only what you get from him, how you interpret his words, his demeanor, his story. The message you get doesn't come from him; he's just a vehicle, like letters and words in a message. hmm maybe
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Dec 11, 2021 5:58:10 GMT -5
He's been sick with Lyme Disease in the last year, dealing with brain fog, confusion and issues related to the illness. His messages in the last year have really just been documenting his journey with the illness. I could be wrong, but I don't think these posts have been about making a living...personally I've found them authentic and deep. Seems to me like there's an aspect of him that likes a challenge and that wants to experience life in many of its shades! But as you said, every path is different and unique, I agree that a 'dark night' is not necessary for everyone. Yes, that's correct. He hit rock bottom but seems to be recovering. Nevertheless, I can't help compare how he is dealing with his severe health situation and how Ramakrishna and Niz were dealing with their severe health situations. There's no comparison, really. I think these posts are just to give his followers some 'proof of life' because there are usually several months between these posts and his followers are obviously wondering what's going on with Jeff. And what he has been posting does indeed sound genuine. But these realizations he has been posting about, that's all awakening, pre-SR stuff. That's what I find a bit odd, giving his position and reputation in the ND satsang scene. But this just illustrates once again, as Ramakrishna pointed out, that not everyone can or should be a teacher: "Anyone and everyone cannot be a guru. A huge timber floats on the water and can carry animals as well. But a piece of worthless wood sinks, if a man sits on it, and drowns him. Therefore in every age God incarnates Himself as the guru, to teach humanity. Satchidananda alone is the guru." - RamakrishnaSo, traditionally, the bar is set rather high for teachers, but since ND has become some sort of fad, that bar has been lowered significantly over the years, especially in the West. Butt... to Jeff's credit, he is aware that what he is doing here will ruin his reputation. He wrote last year that these confessions, that he is struggling with what-is, will probably end his career. So I think he's just genuinely struggling to finally get on solid ground with this ND stuff and he's throwing out old anxieties and old habits (like trying to please others). So as disillusioning as his current antics may seem to his followers or anyone who may have considered him to be someone with true insight, I can only support his effort to get rid of any and all pretense, even if it kills his reputation and career as a spiritual teacher. So, keep going Jeff! And then maybe one day do another cartoon. ETA: The last post I read from him was titled "I SING OF DEATH TODAY!" ... that was several months ago. It seemed he was getting ready to transition, he seemed rather clear about that. So I was wondering if he was still around. And it seems he's back! well, one difference I think between his illness and other illnesses, is that Lyme affects the brain, it can manifest as intense brain fog and confusion. Now obviously, I believe there's a level at which he has wanted to experience this...we manifest what we want on some level (often unconscious)....but still, maintaining 'clarity' and 'presence' may be very tough, just as it could be for someone with a form of dementia. So it seems to me that Jeff wanted, on some level, to go to hell and back...to experience intense powerlessness and helplessness....even a sincere flirting with taking his own life.....in a sense to force a new depth of surrender, when even 'clarity' is not available. I feel he has experienced a new level of surrender, and some new useful insight. I like what you said about getting rid of pretence, yes. Nevertheless, there is a little part of me which says....'Okay Jeff, stop indulging this now, pull yourself together and create something new'. It's easier said than done of course, and I know from my own experience, that it's just not possible at times to 'create something new'. Sometimes you just have to sort of ride something out. But, ultimately I hope he comes through this with a new level of....maturity. In a sense...stop screwing around with life, coz life CAN be as much of a bi/ch as you want it to be.
|
|