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Post by inavalan on Mar 14, 2021 2:59:33 GMT -5
I found two sites related to the Diamond Sutra, that have a lot of great information.
In Chinese, but easily navigated if your browser does automatic translation (e.g. Chrome): vajraprajnaparamitasutra.blogspot.com/ Comparison of Ten Translations of "Diamond Sutra·Annotation Pian" and New Annotations to Achieve Complete Wisdom and Break the Vajra Method
The comparison of the Chinese version of the "Diamond Sutra" has been studied by scholars and experts, especially in the comparison of "Dove Translation" and "Xuanyi".
The author focuses on the six Chinese translations, three English translations directly translated from Sanskrit texts.
Comparing, and taking the Sanskrit translation of the English version of "Müller" as a benchmark, there will be a little bit of ink if there are obvious differences between the translations.
Scholars have studied the "Gilgit version" and pointed out that this Sanskrit text is closer to the "Dove Translation". This can be seen from the comparison of the contents of "UOslo" and "Gilgit" and "Dove Translation".
In addition, the translation of "Colgate" among the three English translations adopts free translation, which is the so-called free translation, but this translation adds Many translators’ opinions. Therefore, it is only for reference in this book, and if there are big differences, it will be specially pointed out.
Therefore, the comparison of the English version is mainly based on the two versions of "Müller" and "Conze".
An extended list of Buddhist Sutras: www.buddhism.org/Sutras/ Excellent website! Yes, I remember Conze and Müller. I think their translations are pretty solid. They are to Indology what Legge is to Sinology. These guys have all been pioneers in their respective disciplines. They did some great work. I dabbled a little in the translating of the Chapter #25 of the Diamond Sutra from the Sanskrit version on that site. Differently from Chinese, and from English to some degree, the Sanskrit is rich in inflections, so individual words offer more information, a clearer meaning. Comparing my translation variant with the several English versions on that Chinese site, it is obvious that Conze took the least liberties from the original, so even if his variant isn't perfectly legible in English, whoever reads it is less led astray by the translator's interpretation of the underlying message, offering a better chance of understanding this Sutra author's intention (allegedly Buddha's teachings). I could also see the lack of clarity of the pattern Harrison was trying to make sense of: “You’re left with a kind of negation which says AB is not AB —or not B, if the translator is being more careful—therefore it is AB.” “It seems to come out as a simple denial of identity, which to my mind doesn’t make good sense, and therefore people are left thinking that the Diamond Sutra is engaging in a mystical subversion of ordinary language. But in my view, that doesn’t make sense.” ...
I found that the formulation in $25 isn't that clear-cut as Harrison was presenting it. Even Conze's version doesn't exactly show that pattern. I'm almost tempted to give Sanskrit a quick try. There is an online introductory course of 10-12 lessons ...  It isn't as much for translating anything, because Conze's translation seems good enough, but because I read about the richness of the language. I understand the the Diamond Sutra is one of the most important texts in Zen and Chan Buddhism (at least per wiki). |
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 4:22:50 GMT -5
I just read all 3 translations (the one you and Ina linked) up to chapter 6 and I have to say, just judging by content, I am impressed. If you cut out all the filler, the perspective presented there is pretty much to the point and basically identical to what we are mostly talking about here, i.e. impersonal perspective, prior to mind, seeing thru the eyes of Source/CC perspective, the issues with objectifying/thing-ifying etc... Parts of it could actually come straight out of an A-H workshop, hehe. I think it would be worth doing an extra thread on this Diamond Sutra, chapter by chapter, and comparing the different translations, because this is really good and together with the Heart Sutra one of the most referenced texts in Chan/Zen. Thanks for sharing, guys!  (** stuffs mouth with a massive handfull of fritos **) This was intended more along the spirit of the Blue Cliff thread in a sort of echo of the guy who jumped up on the table. That said, I did wind up finding and skimming this. Perhaps I'll go through it, line-by-line, with the other two I mentioned here, almost certainly will eventually. From the skim it occurs to me that there are two interpretations of the word "Diamond". One is that it cuts through illusion. But another would be that it is indivisible, indestructible, resistant to any rending. Along those lines, I definitely discern the nuance that Harris seeks to introduce, but by the same token, I don't think this leads the sutra to vary overall, to any substantive and significant degree, from the other two translations. The Buddha's intention, his message, survive various details in translation and interpretation, hence this other likening, to the Diamond. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 3, 2021 8:55:24 GMT -5
(** stuffs mouth with a massive handfull of fritos **) This was intended more along the spirit of the Blue Cliff thread in a sort of echo of the guy who jumped up on the table. That said, I did wind up finding and skimming this. Perhaps I'll go through it, line-by-line, with the other two I mentioned here, almost certainly will eventually. From the skim it occurs to me that there are two interpretations of the word "Diamond". One is that it cuts through illusion. But another would be that it is indivisible, indestructible, resistant to any rending. Along those lines, I definitely discern the nuance that Harris seeks to introduce, but by the same token, I don't think this leads the sutra to vary overall, to any substantive and significant degree, from the other two translations. The Buddha's intention, his message, survive various details in translation and interpretation, hence this other likening, to the Diamond. I'll go thru it chapter by chapter. I've got different version, too. I found a translation from the Tibetan and a commentary by Thich Nhat Hanh. So there's no shortness of translations and commentaries. I haven't decided yet which versions I will use, but I'll definitely use Conze and Harrison, maybe also the Tibetan and Chinese translations because these would represent different lineages again. We'll see if there's a fundamental difference of not. I doubt it. It's sometimes also called the Diamond Cutter Sutra, so there the title already gives away the reading of the word diamond. I am not planning to turn this into a philological study though. I am more interested in putting it into plain English. It's not rocket science, even though it's presented as such, hehe. |
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Post by inavalan on Apr 3, 2021 20:25:51 GMT -5
This was intended more along the spirit of the Blue Cliff thread in a sort of echo of the guy who jumped up on the table. That said, I did wind up finding and skimming this. Perhaps I'll go through it, line-by-line, with the other two I mentioned here, almost certainly will eventually. From the skim it occurs to me that there are two interpretations of the word "Diamond". One is that it cuts through illusion. But another would be that it is indivisible, indestructible, resistant to any rending. Along those lines, I definitely discern the nuance that Harris seeks to introduce, but by the same token, I don't think this leads the sutra to vary overall, to any substantive and significant degree, from the other two translations. The Buddha's intention, his message, survive various details in translation and interpretation, hence this other likening, to the Diamond. I'll go thru it chapter by chapter. I've got different version, too. I found a translation from the Tibetan and a commentary by Thich Nhat Hanh. So there's no shortness of translations and commentaries. I haven't decided yet which versions I will use, but I'll definitely use Conze and Harrison, maybe also the Tibetan and Chinese translations because these would represent different lineages again. We'll see if there's a fundamental difference of not. I doubt it. It's sometimes also called the Diamond Cutter Sutra, so there the title already gives away the reading of the word diamond. I am not planning to turn this into a philological study though. I am more interested in putting it into plain English. It's not rocket science, even though it's presented as such, hehe. 
"The Three-Hundred-Verses Knowledge/Wisdom-Perfection, Named Diamond-Cutter/Breaker (a.k.a. Thunderbolt-Destroyer)" Sutra(my attempted translation from Sanskrit) वज्र vajra वज्र vág-ra m. n. [mighty], thunderbolt, esp. Indra's (sts. also of other gods; also applied to mythical weapons, destructive spells etc.); adamant, diamond (gnly. n.); by the way: In Tantra the word for penis is Vajra, same Sanskrit word meaning both Thunderbolt and Diamond. That allows all kind of other interpretations. छेदन chedana छेदन khed-ana a. cutting; destroying; n. cutting; cutting off or down; splitting; breaking (int.); -anîya, fp. to be cut up; -in, a. cutting off; splitting, breaking; destroying, removing (–˚); -ya, fp. to be cut; to be cut off or mutilated. प्रज्ञापारमिता prajñāpāramitā प्रज्ञापारमिता pragñâ-pâramitâ f. highest degree of knowledge or understanding; -̮ape- ta, pp. destitute of knowledge; -maya, a. consisting of understanding; -mâtrâ, f.element or basis of cognition, organ of sense; -vat, a. intelligent, wise, knowing, shrewd; -vâda, m. word of wisdom; -sahâya, a. having intelligence as a companion, wise, intelligent, shrewd प्रज्ञ prajña प्रज्ञ pra-gña a. intelligent; knowing, acquainted with (–˚): (á)-tâ, f. knowledge; -gñapti, f. instruction, information; kind of magic art personified: -kausika,m. N. of a teacher familiar with this art. पारमिता pāramitā पारमिता pâram-i-tâ f. reaching the further shore, complete attainment (of a virtue); (–˚) perfection in (B.).
vajraprajnaparamitasutra.blogspot.com/2014/08/blog-post_64.htmlChapter 13.02《Müller》 After this, Bhagavat spoke thus to the venerable Subhûti: 'This treatise of the Law, O Subhûti, is called the Pragñâ-pâramitâ (Transcendent wisdom), and you should learn it by that name. And why? Because, O Subhûti, what was preached by the Tathâgata as the Pragñâ-pâramitâ, that was preached by the Tathâgata as no-Pâramitâ. Therefore it is called the Pragñâ-pâramitâ.
《Colgate》 The lord buddha replied, "This scripture shall be known as The Transcendent Awareness that Cuts Like a Diamond. By this name it shall be revered and studied and observed. What does this name mean? It means that when the buddha named it, he did not have in mind any definite or arbitrary conception, and so named it. This scripture is hard and sharp, like a diamond that will cut away all arbitrary conceptions and bring one to the other shore of enlightenment.
《Conze》 The Lord replied: This discourse on dharma, Subhuti, is called 'Wisdom which has gone beyond', and as such should you bear it in mind! And why? Just that which the Tathagata has taught as the wisdom which has gone beyond, just that He has taught as not gone beyond. Therefore is it called 'Wisdom which has gone beyond.'
An interesting discussion about the name, on the same Chapter 13 page; I translated with google, so it has some ridiculous terms, but the substance of the discussion seems clear. Broken King Kong, or that Cuts Like a Diamond [1] ( Can break right now ) . King Kong can breakshould be translated as that of Can Cut Diamond . The name of " Müller " is translated as "Diamond cutter断金刚" . The content of the text is completely absent from the title of vajra cchedikā(金刚能断). The prajñāpāramitā nāmāyaṃ subhūte dharmaparyāyaḥ | ( Subhūte ! This method is named after Prajna Paramita) is exactly the same. From this passage, it can be inferred that the Buddha said that the main purpose of this method is prajna paramita, perfection and transcendent wisdom; the ability to break the vajra is only a figurative adjective. As for why it is different from the scripture title? This problem can be viewed from two perspectives:
1. We know that "Diamond Sutra" is a product of "Dapin Prajna Sutra" also known as "Twenty-Five Thousand Prajna Sutra" or "Maha Prajna Paramita Sutra". This product is the ninth energy-breaking vajra in Volume 577 , and is a small part of the overall "Big-pin Prajna Sutra". Therefore, in the original text, the Buddha said that this method is Prajna Paramita, which is based on the whole sutra.
2. When the "Diamond Sutra" was circulated as an independent classic, it was crowned with the name of this point-the severable diamond point. I personally think that the six Chinese translations of "Diamond Sutra" do not have an independent sutra name, except for "Xuanyi". The other five translations are all based on the name of the original "Dapin Prajna Sutra" and then named after their original subtitles. The name of the "Vajra Prajna Paramita Sutra".As for why "Dove Translation" is also called Mahayana? It can be inferred that the age is the oldest, and there are still different times between the Mahayana and the Hinayana, so the emphasis is on the Mahayana method. The Mahayana method of "Puyi" and later translations a hundred years later has become popular, and there is no need to emphasize Mahayana anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_SutraThe Sanskrit title for the sūtra is the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra, which may be translated roughly as the "Vajra Cutter Perfection of Wisdom Sūtra" or "The Perfection of Wisdom Text that Cuts Like a Thunderbolt".[1] In English, shortened forms such as Diamond Sūtra and Vajra Sūtra are common. The title relies on the power of the vajra (diamond or thunderbolt, but also an abstract term for a powerful weapon) to cut things as a metaphor for the type of wisdom that cuts and shatters illusions to get to ultimate reality.[1] The sutra is also called by the name "Triśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra" (300 lines Perfection of Insight sutra).
Quite interesting! (maybe not as interesting to others) |
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Post by laughter on Apr 4, 2021 0:35:36 GMT -5
This was intended more along the spirit of the Blue Cliff thread in a sort of echo of the guy who jumped up on the table. That said, I did wind up finding and skimming this. Perhaps I'll go through it, line-by-line, with the other two I mentioned here, almost certainly will eventually. From the skim it occurs to me that there are two interpretations of the word "Diamond". One is that it cuts through illusion. But another would be that it is indivisible, indestructible, resistant to any rending. Along those lines, I definitely discern the nuance that Harris seeks to introduce, but by the same token, I don't think this leads the sutra to vary overall, to any substantive and significant degree, from the other two translations. The Buddha's intention, his message, survive various details in translation and interpretation, hence this other likening, to the Diamond. I'll go thru it chapter by chapter. I've got different version, too. I found a translation from the Tibetan and a commentary by Thich Nhat Hanh. So there's no shortness of translations and commentaries. I haven't decided yet which versions I will use, but I'll definitely use Conze and Harrison, maybe also the Tibetan and Chinese translations because these would represent different lineages again. We'll see if there's a fundamental difference of not. I doubt it. It's sometimes also called the Diamond Cutter Sutra, so there the title already gives away the reading of the word diamond. I am not planning to turn this into a philological study though. I am more interested in putting it into plain English. It's not rocket science, even though it's presented as such, hehe. Yes, there's no doubt that this is a common interpretation, Johnson uses it, explicitly. Harrison, however, doesn't, although "Perfection" as he uses it seems to favor interpretation of the sutra as an instrument, as in "vehicle", implying a process, a "way". Hua seems to split the difference with a very conservative transcription of Vajra, leaving interpretation to the comment section where they allow for both meanings ("indestructible" or "cutting"), and add a third: "luminous". Now, Johnson seems the odd man out between the three with: "This Sutra is hard and sharp, like a diamond that will cut away all arbitrary conceptions and bring one to the other shore of Enlightenment." Online translations of Varja vary from simply " hard", to many different meanings. But, inavalen's point about the alternate meaning of Vajra as referring to an implement or weapon seems corrobrated by a google. Now, I'm curious, is the latinized "Vajracchedikā" a common noun referring to the sutra itself, or is there a sanskrit term this correlates to that can be translated literally, and what was the literal Chinese on the "Dunhuang scroll" as a title? Clearly, if there is evidence of a literal title involving either the implement or cutting notions then it might seem to put my wordplay to rest - but remember, the title is a later addition by scribes, while Ananda supposedly remembered Chapter 13, what the Buddha said, word-for-word. Note that Hua decomposes the full name into "Vajra Prajna Pàramità", and offers a rather tantalizing commentary, for example .. "No one can destroy that which has no mark.", along with an explanation of the term "real mark", distinguishing between the literary form, the act of contemplation, and ultimately, realization. I know you favor clarity and simplicity, but I see occasional value in the ambiguous subtlety of polysemy. I think both notions of "cutting" and "hard" work here: I'm not suggesting either/or between "hard" and "cutting", just that "hard" is an alternative, and even secondary facet of "diamond" (pun intended). |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 4, 2021 10:54:22 GMT -5
I'll go thru it chapter by chapter. I've got different version, too. I found a translation from the Tibetan and a commentary by Thich Nhat Hanh. So there's no shortness of translations and commentaries. I haven't decided yet which versions I will use, but I'll definitely use Conze and Harrison, maybe also the Tibetan and Chinese translations because these would represent different lineages again. We'll see if there's a fundamental difference of not. I doubt it. It's sometimes also called the Diamond Cutter Sutra, so there the title already gives away the reading of the word diamond. I am not planning to turn this into a philological study though. I am more interested in putting it into plain English. It's not rocket science, even though it's presented as such, hehe. Yes, there's no doubt that this is a common interpretation, Johnson uses it, explicitly. Harrison, however, doesn't, although "Perfection" as he uses it seems to favor interpretation of the sutra as an instrument, as in "vehicle", implying a process, a "way". Hua seems to split the difference with a very conservative transcription of Vajra, leaving interpretation to the comment section where they allow for both meanings ("indestructible" or "cutting"), and add a third: "luminous". Now, Johnson seems the odd man out between the three with: "This Sutra is hard and sharp, like a diamond that will cut away all arbitrary conceptions and bring one to the other shore of Enlightenment." Online translations of Varja vary from simply " hard", to many different meanings. But, inavalen's point about the alternate meaning of Vajra as referring to an implement or weapon seems corrobrated by a google. Now, I'm curious, is the latinized "Vajracchedikā" a common noun referring to the sutra itself, or is there a sanskrit term this correlates to that can be translated literally, and what was the literal Chinese on the "Dunhuang scroll" as a title? Clearly, if there is evidence of a literal title involving either the implement or cutting notions then it might seem to put my wordplay to rest - but remember, the title is a later addition by scribes, while Ananda supposedly remembered Chapter 13, what the Buddha said, word-for-word. Note that Hua decomposes the full name into "Vajra Prajna Pàramità", and offers a rather tantalizing commentary, for example .. "No one can destroy that which has no mark.", along with an explanation of the term "real mark", distinguishing between the literary form, the act of contemplation, and ultimately, realization. I know you favor clarity and simplicity, but I see occasional value in the ambiguous subtlety of polysemy. I think both notions of "cutting" and "hard" work here: I'm not suggesting either/or between "hard" and "cutting", just that "hard" is an alternative, and even secondary facet of "diamond" (pun intended). Here's what Thich Nhat Hanh writes: |
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Post by inavalan on Apr 4, 2021 15:32:34 GMT -5
I'll go thru it chapter by chapter. I've got different version, too. I found a translation from the Tibetan and a commentary by Thich Nhat Hanh. So there's no shortness of translations and commentaries. I haven't decided yet which versions I will use, but I'll definitely use Conze and Harrison, maybe also the Tibetan and Chinese translations because these would represent different lineages again. We'll see if there's a fundamental difference of not. I doubt it. It's sometimes also called the Diamond Cutter Sutra, so there the title already gives away the reading of the word diamond. I am not planning to turn this into a philological study though. I am more interested in putting it into plain English. It's not rocket science, even though it's presented as such, hehe.
"The Three-Hundred-Verses Knowledge/Wisdom-Perfection, Named Diamond-Cutter/Breaker (a.k.a. Thunderbolt-Destroyer)" Sutra(my attempted translation from Sanskrit) वज्र vajra वज्र vág-ra m. n. [mighty], thunderbolt, esp. Indra's (sts. also of other gods; also applied to mythical weapons, destructive spells etc.); adamant, diamond (gnly. n.); by the way: In Tantra the word for penis is Vajra, same Sanskrit word meaning both Thunderbolt and Diamond. That allows all kind of other interpretations. छेदन chedana छेदन khed-ana a. cutting; destroying; n. cutting; cutting off or down; splitting; breaking (int.); -anîya, fp. to be cut up; -in, a. cutting off; splitting, breaking; destroying, removing (–˚); -ya, fp. to be cut; to be cut off or mutilated. प्रज्ञापारमिता prajñāpāramitā प्रज्ञापारमिता pragñâ-pâramitâ f. highest degree of knowledge or understanding; -̮ape- ta, pp. destitute of knowledge; -maya, a. consisting of understanding; -mâtrâ, f.element or basis of cognition, organ of sense; -vat, a. intelligent, wise, knowing, shrewd; -vâda, m. word of wisdom; -sahâya, a. having intelligence as a companion, wise, intelligent, shrewd प्रज्ञ prajña प्रज्ञ pra-gña a. intelligent; knowing, acquainted with (–˚): (á)-tâ, f. knowledge; -gñapti, f. instruction, information; kind of magic art personified: -kausika,m. N. of a teacher familiar with this art. पारमिता pāramitā पारमिता pâram-i-tâ f. reaching the further shore, complete attainment (of a virtue); (–˚) perfection in (B.).
vajraprajnaparamitasutra.blogspot.com/2014/08/blog-post_64.htmlChapter 13.02《Müller》 After this, Bhagavat spoke thus to the venerable Subhûti: 'This treatise of the Law, O Subhûti, is called the Pragñâ-pâramitâ (Transcendent wisdom), and you should learn it by that name. And why? Because, O Subhûti, what was preached by the Tathâgata as the Pragñâ-pâramitâ, that was preached by the Tathâgata as no-Pâramitâ. Therefore it is called the Pragñâ-pâramitâ.
《Colgate》 The lord buddha replied, "This scripture shall be known as The Transcendent Awareness that Cuts Like a Diamond. By this name it shall be revered and studied and observed. What does this name mean? It means that when the buddha named it, he did not have in mind any definite or arbitrary conception, and so named it. This scripture is hard and sharp, like a diamond that will cut away all arbitrary conceptions and bring one to the other shore of enlightenment.
《Conze》 The Lord replied: This discourse on dharma, Subhuti, is called 'Wisdom which has gone beyond', and as such should you bear it in mind! And why? Just that which the Tathagata has taught as the wisdom which has gone beyond, just that He has taught as not gone beyond. Therefore is it called 'Wisdom which has gone beyond.'
An interesting discussion about the name, on the same Chapter 13 page; I translated with google, so it has some ridiculous terms, but the substance of the discussion seems clear. Broken King Kong, or that Cuts Like a Diamond [1] ( Can break right now ) . King Kong can breakshould be translated as that of Can Cut Diamond . The name of " Müller " is translated as "Diamond cutter断金刚" . The content of the text is completely absent from the title of vajra cchedikā(金刚能断). The prajñāpāramitā nāmāyaṃ subhūte dharmaparyāyaḥ | ( Subhūte ! This method is named after Prajna Paramita) is exactly the same. From this passage, it can be inferred that the Buddha said that the main purpose of this method is prajna paramita, perfection and transcendent wisdom; the ability to break the vajra is only a figurative adjective. As for why it is different from the scripture title? This problem can be viewed from two perspectives:
1. We know that "Diamond Sutra" is a product of "Dapin Prajna Sutra" also known as "Twenty-Five Thousand Prajna Sutra" or "Maha Prajna Paramita Sutra". This product is the ninth energy-breaking vajra in Volume 577 , and is a small part of the overall "Big-pin Prajna Sutra". Therefore, in the original text, the Buddha said that this method is Prajna Paramita, which is based on the whole sutra.
2. When the "Diamond Sutra" was circulated as an independent classic, it was crowned with the name of this point-the severable diamond point. I personally think that the six Chinese translations of "Diamond Sutra" do not have an independent sutra name, except for "Xuanyi". The other five translations are all based on the name of the original "Dapin Prajna Sutra" and then named after their original subtitles. The name of the "Vajra Prajna Paramita Sutra".As for why "Dove Translation" is also called Mahayana? It can be inferred that the age is the oldest, and there are still different times between the Mahayana and the Hinayana, so the emphasis is on the Mahayana method. The Mahayana method of "Puyi" and later translations a hundred years later has become popular, and there is no need to emphasize Mahayana anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_SutraThe Sanskrit title for the sūtra is the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra, which may be translated roughly as the "Vajra Cutter Perfection of Wisdom Sūtra" or "The Perfection of Wisdom Text that Cuts Like a Thunderbolt".[1] In English, shortened forms such as Diamond Sūtra and Vajra Sūtra are common. The title relies on the power of the vajra (diamond or thunderbolt, but also an abstract term for a powerful weapon) to cut things as a metaphor for the type of wisdom that cuts and shatters illusions to get to ultimate reality.[1] The sutra is also called by the name "Triśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra" (300 lines Perfection of Insight sutra).
Quite interesting! (maybe not as interesting to others)
Here's the "vajraprajnaparamitasutra" Chinese blog author's explanation of this Sutra's title on the introductory page of his site (this is in addition to the discussion for Chapter #13, quotes above in google translation, and it is the site I've quoted previously about this Sutra): vajraprajnaparamitasutra.blogspot.com/2014/08/blog-post.html
本書比對的文本經題各有不同，本書於第十三品〈如法受持分〉(13.02)略有比較。《繆勒本》和《吉爾吉特本》兩文本的經題都是vajracchedikā prajñāpāramitā 《(能)斷金剛般若波羅蜜》。梵文的特點在於梵字有三種性、三種數、八個格，所以每一個字本身已表現出功能，與其在句子中的位置無關。prajñāpāramitā是名詞，為主格；vajra是呼格，用於稱呼；cchedikā 是字尾形容詞，切斷cutting off的意思。依現代中文的意思直譯是 (能)斷金剛的圓滿超絕智慧，或圓滿超絕智慧(能)斷金剛。金剛是人類所知最堅硬的東西，能斷金剛譬喻比金剛更硬更利銳，因此以能斷金剛形容般若智慧。從時間點分析，前較古的三本漢譯本都只有翻譯為金剛般若波羅蜜，後三本都有譯出能斷金剛。據此，或許也可以推測能斷是後來編加的。但《鳩本》以雅為本，也可能以金剛的華麗、高雅、堅硬已足以代表般若智慧，尤以般若是女性字，配合金剛(鑽石)也是絕配。尤其根據第十三品〈如法受持分〉(13.02)文本所示，佛陀本意這法門是「般若波羅蜜」。所以有沒有能斷二字應該也不是重點。又，在所有文本所根據翻譯的原典未出土以前，多加揣測也沒有什麼助益。
The google translation, with all its pitfalls, probably is good enough to follow the commentary (" King Kong" is the mistranslation of 金剛 = " vajra, diamond") : The texts and titles of this book are different. The book is slightly compared in the thirteenth article " Rufa Shouchifen" (13.02) . The titles of the two texts of "Müller Book" and "Gilgit Book" are vajracchedikā prajñāpāramitā " ( Enable ) Broken Vajra Prajna Paramita". The characteristic of Sanskrit is that Sanskrit characters have three types, three numbers, and eight patterns, so each character has its own function, regardless of its position in the sentence. prajñāpāramitā is a noun, which is the main case; vajra is a hug [vocative], which is used for address [appellation]; cchedikā is a suffix adjective, which cuts off the meaning of cutting off . Modern Chinese literal translation according to the mean ( can ) off successfully transcendent wisdom of King Kong, or a complete transcendent wisdom ( can ) cut off the diamond. King Kong is the hardest thing known to mankind. The analogy of breaking King Kong is harder and sharper than King Kong. Therefore, breaking King Kong is used to describe Prajna wisdom. Analyzed from the point of time, the three older Chinese translations were only translated into the Vajra Prajna Paramita , and the last three have all translated the Vajra that can be broken . Based on this, it may also be speculated that Nengjuan was added later. However, "Haomoto" is based on elegance, and it may be that the magnificence, elegance, and hardness of the King Kong are enough to represent the wisdom of Prajna , especially Prajna It is a female character, and it is a perfect match with diamond ( diamond ) . In particular, according to the text of the thirteenth item " Ru Dharma Shou Jifen" (13.02) , the Buddha originally intended this method to be " prajna paramita" . So it shouldn’t be the point whether it can be broken. Moreover, it is not helpful to speculate until the original texts on which all texts are translated are unearthed.
complete transcendent wisdom ( can ) cut off the diamond
Word Decomposition 能 néng can; to be able to; might possibly; ability; (physics) energy; (Chinese surname) 断 duàn to break; to snap; to cut off; to give up or abstain from something 金刚 jīngāng vajra; diamond; hard metal; pupa of certain insects; Vajrapani, Buddha's warrior attendant; King Kong |
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Post by laughter on Apr 4, 2021 23:30:55 GMT -5
Yes, there's no doubt that this is a common interpretation, Johnson uses it, explicitly. Harrison, however, doesn't, although "Perfection" as he uses it seems to favor interpretation of the sutra as an instrument, as in "vehicle", implying a process, a "way". Hua seems to split the difference with a very conservative transcription of Vajra, leaving interpretation to the comment section where they allow for both meanings ("indestructible" or "cutting"), and add a third: "luminous". Now, Johnson seems the odd man out between the three with: "This Sutra is hard and sharp, like a diamond that will cut away all arbitrary conceptions and bring one to the other shore of Enlightenment." Online translations of Varja vary from simply " hard", to many different meanings. But, inavalen's point about the alternate meaning of Vajra as referring to an implement or weapon seems corrobrated by a google. Now, I'm curious, is the latinized "Vajracchedikā" a common noun referring to the sutra itself, or is there a sanskrit term this correlates to that can be translated literally, and what was the literal Chinese on the "Dunhuang scroll" as a title? Clearly, if there is evidence of a literal title involving either the implement or cutting notions then it might seem to put my wordplay to rest - but remember, the title is a later addition by scribes, while Ananda supposedly remembered Chapter 13, what the Buddha said, word-for-word. Note that Hua decomposes the full name into "Vajra Prajna Pàramità", and offers a rather tantalizing commentary, for example .. "No one can destroy that which has no mark.", along with an explanation of the term "real mark", distinguishing between the literary form, the act of contemplation, and ultimately, realization. I know you favor clarity and simplicity, but I see occasional value in the ambiguous subtlety of polysemy. I think both notions of "cutting" and "hard" work here: I'm not suggesting either/or between "hard" and "cutting", just that "hard" is an alternative, and even secondary facet of "diamond" (pun intended). Here's what Thich Nhat Hanh writes: Ah, ok, so the title does have a literal translation to the diamond cutter. I'd still be curious about the Chinese scroll though, because I'd guess - based only on the three translations I've seen - that the Buddha didn't say that. What is Thich's translation of Chapter 13? And, to be clear, I think the title is fitting. In this way, the sutra - what Hua distinguishes as the literary form of it - becomes more than just the literal words spoken that day. It doesn't detract from the meaning, it adds to it, which is perhpas a subtle irony. |
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Post by inavalan on Apr 5, 2021 1:04:50 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Apr 5, 2021 3:06:04 GMT -5
Thanks. So now I'm curious about Chapter 13 in the "worlds oldest book", and, if it's there, why would Hua and Harrison leave that out?  This seems to suggest that "Diamond Cutter ...", was on the title page (er, well, title block, anyways), here is an image that's apparently of the first block that includes the title text. Couldn't find a transcription of it, but it appears that this is a snap of the scroll. Did bookmark a 4th translation though. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 5, 2021 5:57:49 GMT -5
Here's what Thich Nhat Hanh writes: Ah, ok, so the title does have a literal translation to the diamond cutter. I'd still be curious about the Chinese scroll though, because I'd guess - based only on the three translations I've seen - that the Buddha didn't say that. What is Thich's translation of Chapter 13? And, to be clear, I think the title is fitting. In this way, the sutra - what Hua distinguishes as the literary form of it - becomes more than just the literal words spoken that day. It doesn't detract from the meaning, it adds to it, which is perhpas a subtle irony. I haven't looked at the translations form the Chinese version, because we've got the translations from the original versions. So why bother with a translation of a translation, right? I wouldn't trust the Chinese version though if your goal is to restore the original meaning. The Tibetan version may be a lot closer though. Chapter 13? Sorry dude, I'm still at chapter 6! But I'll get there in time. I'll take it slow, but will do it thoroughly. So this may take a little longer than expected. I still haven't decided which translations to use. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 5, 2021 10:50:29 GMT -5
Thanks. So now I'm curious about Chapter 13 in the "worlds oldest book", and, if it's there, why would Hua and Harrison leave that out? This seems to suggest that "Diamond Cutter ...", was on the title page (er, well, title block, anyways), here is an image that's apparently of the first block that includes the title text. Couldn't find a transcription of it, but it appears that this is a snap of the scroll. Did bookmark a 4th translation though. The Chinese title 金剛般若波羅蜜多經 is just a transliteration of Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra. The last character 經 means sutra. The rest is (an attempt of) transliteration. Keep in mind that the number of available sounds and syllables is very limited in Chinese. So whatever you have to transliterate from a western language usually comes out as unrecognizable to the western ear (in Cantonese it's usually better). That's why when Inavalan put parts of the text into google translate, the AI translated 金剛 as King Kong... |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 5, 2021 11:09:13 GMT -5
Okay, I think I've settled for 4 translations, Sanskrit (Conze and Harrison), Tibetan (Roach) and Chinese (Thich Nhat Hanh). TNH's commentary is also very informative. I'm going to quote a bit from there. And I'm going to cut out all the filler parts, just focusing on the essential parts. Which means we can skip the entire chapter one and move right to the end of chapter two...
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The Diamond Sutra
Chapter 2
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Sanskrit (Conze):
Subhuti: “How then should a son or daughter of good family, who have set out in the Bodhisattva-vehicle, stand, how progress, how control their thoughts?”
Sanskrit (Harrison):
Subhuti: “How, Lord, should one who has set out on the bodhisattva path take his stand, how should he proceed, how should he control the mind?”
Tibetan (Roach):
Subhuti: “What of those who have entered well into the way of the bodhisattva? How shall they live? How shall they practice? How should they keep their thoughts?”
Chinese (TNH):
Subhuti: “If sons and daughters of good families want to give rise to the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, what should they rely on and what should they do to master their thinking?”
*********************************************************************
Okay, that looks like the age-old question: "How can I find peace of mind?" or "How to still the mind?"
Commentary from TNH:
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Post by laughter on Apr 5, 2021 11:14:11 GMT -5
Thanks. So now I'm curious about Chapter 13 in the "worlds oldest book", and, if it's there, why would Hua and Harrison leave that out? This seems to suggest that "Diamond Cutter ...", was on the title page (er, well, title block, anyways), here is an image that's apparently of the first block that includes the title text. Couldn't find a transcription of it, but it appears that this is a snap of the scroll. Did bookmark a 4th translation though. The Chinese title 金剛般若波羅蜜多經 is just a transliteration of Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra. The last character 經 means sutra. The rest is (an attempt of) transliteration. Keep in mind that the number of available sounds and syllables is very limited in Chinese. So whatever you have to transliterate from a western language usually comes out as unrecognizable to the western ear (in Cantonese it's usually better). That's why when Inavalan put parts of the text into google translate, the AI translated 金剛 as King Kong... Yeah, that was priceless. When you get to 13 you'll see the connection between it and the title. And, to re-iterate, my understanding of the story goes that the Buddhist cannon wasn't written down when it was spoken, but after the Buddha died by his follower with the photographic memory, Annanda. So, the title page was made up by the scribes later. Oh, and the reason for the interest in the Chinese scroll is because it's the oldest complete physical artifact we currently have of the DS (or any other book, for that matter). So, it's a chain of copy thing. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 5, 2021 11:24:07 GMT -5
The Chinese title 金剛般若波羅蜜多經 is just a transliteration of Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra. The last character 經 means sutra. The rest is (an attempt of) transliteration. Keep in mind that the number of available sounds and syllables is very limited in Chinese. So whatever you have to transliterate from a western language usually comes out as unrecognizable to the western ear (in Cantonese it's usually better). That's why when Inavalan put parts of the text into google translate, the AI translated 金剛 as King Kong... Yeah, that was priceless. When you get to 13 you'll see the connection between it and the title. And, to re-iterate, my understanding of the story goes that the Buddhist cannon wasn't written down when it was spoken, but after the Buddha died by his follower with the photographic memory, Annanda. So, the title page was made up by the scribes later. Oh, and the reason for the interest in the Chinese scroll is because it's the oldest complete physical artifact we currently have of the DS (or any other book, for that matter). So, it's a chain of copy thing. That seems plausible. And this touches upon an interesting dilemma: How do you preserve something for the ages? On paper? On bamboo slips? On stone tablets? That have been the options back then. And today? On a hard drive? When do hard drives start losing data? After a year? Or floppy disks? Who still has a floppy drive? Or CD? How are we going to store our data so that it will survive thru the ages when every storage medium at some point starts to decay and lose data? Seems like the oral tradition isn't so bad after all if we think in terms of millennia. I took a look at that scroll. No punctuation. Aces!  |
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It isn't as much for translating anything, because Conze's translation seems good enough, but because I read about the richness of the language.
(** stuffs mouth with a massive handfull of fritos **)