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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 30, 2020 6:39:19 GMT -5
I would say the higher can know the lower but the lower cannot know the higher. IOW, we can't see above our own level (of being). And a lot of people, in general, consider there isn't a higher level than their own. But there's a difference between having a deeper understanding and being able to relate that to someone who doesn't. Also, the entire notion of hierarchy, in existential terms, is always worth questioning. If someone does genuinely have that deeper understanding, but is unable to reach and gain the attention of another who doesn't, then that part, that trigger or lever within the aspirant, is, in this sense, entirely invisible to the "higher" one.This isn't to dismiss hierarchy outright, or to deny the relative meaning expressed by their expression, but it reminds me of a Zen koan, and the Zen notion of: "beginner's mind". No, it's not. Because someone on a higher level was once on the lower level. The higher is inclusive of the lower. Take the ox herding pictures. Everybody starts at the same place. And going back into the marketplace, means ~disappearing~ back into life. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 30, 2020 8:37:24 GMT -5
But there's a difference between having a deeper understanding and being able to relate that to someone who doesn't. Also, the entire notion of hierarchy, in existential terms, is always worth questioning. If someone does genuinely have that deeper understanding, but is unable to reach and gain the attention of another who doesn't, then that part, that trigger or lever within the aspirant, is, in this sense, entirely invisible to the "higher" one.This isn't to dismiss hierarchy outright, or to deny the relative meaning expressed by their expression, but it reminds me of a Zen koan, and the Zen notion of: "beginner's mind". No, it's not. Because someone on a higher level was once on the lower level. The higher is inclusive of the lower. Take the ox herding pictures. Everybody starts at the same place. And going back into the marketplace, means ~disappearing~ back into life. , that depends, but, even when true, not everyone traces the same set of steps, and there's no guarantee they can relate to what they project of their old selves onto the aspirant. If you're going to introduce the notion of progress, go all the way, don't settle for an oversimplified child's-eye view of it. Think, by analogy, about people's developmental capabilities on a purely relative, material level. It's very common for people to live unbalanced lives. Some are very competent in their careers and have a train wreck of a personal life. Other's are all well accomplished and self-actualized, including a long-lasting relationship, and then produce drug addicted, criminal offspring. Similarly, people can be quite "spiritually advanced" in some facets, but not others. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 30, 2020 8:40:29 GMT -5
If someone does genuinely have that deeper understanding, but is unable to reach and gain the attention of another who doesn't That doesn't quite reflect my experience. It's not about ability. Not exactly. If you realise that violence isn't helpful, and stop using weapons of any kind, would you say you are unable to fight? One can know the roads of conflict well and choose not to use them.
Gaining the attention of someone might be seen as helpful for teaching purposes at one stage, but at a later stage seen to serve no purpose but delay (gaining the attention of the unenlightened is something to avoid if at all possible).
For every gateless gate, the way back is not technically impossible, but seen to be insane. No one returns to a way they see the insanity of. heh heh  .. I remember my first time walking through a Walmart after .. well .. after something. Wow.  .. ( .. zombies! ..)
But, the only constant - in relative, material terms - is change, so, it might seem otherwise right now, but, ya' never know just whose attention you might want in the future, or why.  |
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Post by Reefs on Oct 30, 2020 12:28:24 GMT -5
For every gateless gate, the way back is not technically impossible, but seen to be insane. No one returns to a way they see the insanity of. Ha! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 20:14:41 GMT -5
I don't recognise your attainment. I infer from this that you are either too far ahead, or too far behind to recognise mine. I is ‘always’ the problem, “I” only having its own collection of trappings from which to try and understand the many others about it. Each time the seeker ‘comes-up trumps’ the I be riding the Bull. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 20:24:42 GMT -5
I feel confident in saying that I am not beyond 6. More than that I cannot say. Stripped of the minds content Wally went where few go, willingly and without desire, whilst enquiring. In Zen, all numbers add up to nothing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 20:25:55 GMT -5
a good point that should give pause to everybody: there are things you don't understand, no matter how much you believe you do. I don't recognise your attainment. Sure thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 20:40:06 GMT -5
I don't recognise your attainment. I infer from this that you are either too far ahead, or too far behind to recognise mine. This reminds me of a Richard Rose concept of "ladders". The guy who owns this forum was a student of Richard's. Many years ago. As I recall, Richard applied it to the practicality of people relating to one another, in that only someone higher up but not too far away can help you on it. My exposure to this has been casual, and 2nd hand. ‘Show me your’s and I’ll show you mine’ travels along with us until emptiness reveals the futility carrot-offerings in place of touch. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2021 20:44:58 GMT -5
I would say the higher can know the lower but the lower cannot know the higher. IOW, we can't see above our own level (of being). And a lot of people, in general, consider there isn't a higher level than their own. But there's a difference between having a deeper understanding and being able to relate that to someone who doesn't. Also, the entire notion of hierarchy, in existential terms, is always worth questioning. If someone does genuinely have that deeper understanding, but is unable to reach and gain the attention of another who doesn't, then that part, that trigger or lever within the aspirant, is, in this sense, entirely invisible to the "higher" one. This isn't to dismiss hierarchy outright, or to deny the relative meaning expressed by their expression, but it reminds me of a Zen koan, and the Zen notion of: "beginner's mind". One be left with beginners-mind after the intellect vanishes and the person enquiring is no more. |
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.. I remember my first time walking through a Walmart after .. well .. after something. Wow. 
.. ( .. zombies! ..)
