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Post by zendancer on Jun 23, 2020 9:54:59 GMT -5
Thank you for placing this quote. But still I liked this line very much " Segal: p53, "In sleep, the mind finally stopped pumping out its unceasing litany of terror, and the witness was left to witness an unconscious mind"I struggle to find credibility in such claims. If there were such a wide-awake witness throughout deep sleep - which ‘transcends mental states’ - why on earth would it have ANY connection (or association, or relationship) to a particular body-mind unit? Think about it. If the mind/identity has been left behind in deep sleep why would there be a transcendent witness of the contents or circumstances of THAT particular mind? Why would it hang about watching the unconscious body at rest (as opposed to all manner of alternative possibilities)? The reason why is surely because it is still within the sphere of that particular body-mind - albeit in a very subtle state of cognition. In other words, the mind is not really asleep.
I find it far more credible to understand such claims/assertions as a confirmation of the fact that in deep sleep ’something’ is still very much operative - a deep intelligence remains at work which is ultimately is beyond the limited cognition of ordinary waking intellect and sensory perception. This deep intelligence transcends - and is the ground of - all states.
Yes, there is a deep intelligence that underlies everything, but that intelligence is aware, and there is no separation between it and mind or anything else. As a result of a CC, it seemed obvious to this character that the same awareness looks out of all eyes, and that everyone and everything is one-with THAT. The fact that a particular organism is consciously aware during sleep is simply one more unusual thing that seems to happen in the world of non-duality and non-locality. How did Paul Morgan-Somers know the name of his future wife two years before he met her? How did Ganto know that he would be murdered 3 years in the future and that he would give a loud yell at that time? What we are often does not conform with logical ideas about how reality functions.
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 23, 2020 11:17:21 GMT -5
I struggle to find credibility in such claims. If there were such a wide-awake witness throughout deep sleep - which ‘transcends mental states’ - why on earth would it have ANY connection (or association, or relationship) to a particular body-mind unit? Think about it. If the mind/identity has been left behind in deep sleep why would there be a transcendent witness of the contents or circumstances of THAT particular mind? Why would it hang about watching the unconscious body at rest (as opposed to all manner of alternative possibilities)? The reason why is surely because it is still within the sphere of that particular body-mind - albeit in a very subtle state of cognition. In other words, the mind is not really asleep.
I find it far more credible to understand such claims/assertions as a confirmation of the fact that in deep sleep ’something’ is still very much operative - a deep intelligence remains at work which is ultimately is beyond the limited cognition of ordinary waking intellect and sensory perception. This deep intelligence transcends - and is the ground of - all states.
Yes, there is a deep intelligence that underlies everything, but that intelligence is aware, and there is no separation between it and mind or anything else. As a result of a CC, it seemed obvious to this character that the same awareness looks out of all eyes, and that everyone and everything is one-with THAT. The fact that a particular organism is consciously aware during sleep is simply one more unusual thing that seems to happen in the world of non-duality and non-locality. How did Paul Morgan-Somers know the name of his future wife two years before he met her? How did Ganto know that he would be murdered 3 years in the future and that he would give a loud yell at that time? What we are often does not conform with logical ideas about how reality functions. In my initial kensho shift (many years ago) I saw that no thing exists - only everything IS. So whatever THIS is, yes, it is THAT which looks out from all eyes - it IS all eyes. But that doesn’t give a particular perspective special powers. A particular perspective is THIS perspective-ing. This can be realised. THIS is invincible but the organism is not. THIS is eternal but the organism is not. THIS is ALL but the organism is not. The organism carries on much as before but with the certain knowledge that it is not what it thought it was. In a sense, there is now NO body-mind - there is THIS body-minding. But this doesn’t mean that the body-mind expression can now overcome the laws of physics. For me, the essence of non-duality (or no-separation) is simple. Instead of the delusion of trillions of things happening there is the felt-sense apperception of ‘one thing’ (or no thing) happening. That’s it. The rest is mainly philosophy of mind related differences and factional issues. I’m suspicious of claims about non-duality which have a supernatural basis to them. Although there may well be (there are) mysterious/ineffable structures in reality (which I don’t understand) I don’t see a connection with the realisation ‘of our true nature’ and the arising of special powers. These seem like throwbacks to a more credulous age.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 23, 2020 13:23:52 GMT -5
Yes, there is a deep intelligence that underlies everything, but that intelligence is aware, and there is no separation between it and mind or anything else. As a result of a CC, it seemed obvious to this character that the same awareness looks out of all eyes, and that everyone and everything is one-with THAT. The fact that a particular organism is consciously aware during sleep is simply one more unusual thing that seems to happen in the world of non-duality and non-locality. How did Paul Morgan-Somers know the name of his future wife two years before he met her? How did Ganto know that he would be murdered 3 years in the future and that he would give a loud yell at that time? What we are often does not conform with logical ideas about how reality functions. In my initial kensho shift (many years ago) I saw that no thing exists - only everything IS. So whatever THIS is, yes, it is THAT which looks out from all eyes - it IS all eyes. But that doesn’t give a particular perspective special powers. A particular perspective is THIS perspective-ing. This can be realised. THIS is invincible but the organism is not. THIS is eternal but the organism is not. THIS is ALL but the organism is not. The organism carries on much as before but with the certain knowledge that it is not what it thought it was. In a sense, there is now NO body-mind - there is THIS body-minding. But this doesn’t mean that the body-mind expression can now overcome the laws of physics. For me, the essence of non-duality (or no-separation) is simple. Instead of the delusion of trillions of things happening there is the felt-sense apperception of ‘one thing’ (or no thing) happening. That’s it. The rest is mainly philosophy of mind related differences and factional issues. I’m suspicious of claims about non-duality which have a supernatural basis to them. Although there may well be (there are) mysterious/ineffable structures in reality (which I don’t understand) I don’t see a connection with the realisation ‘of our true nature’ and the arising of special powers. These seem like throwbacks to a more credulous age. Mostly I agree, but one of my early existential questions went something like this, "If even a few of the 'miracle" stories from many different spiritual traditions actually happened as claimed, what could explain them?" As a result of kensho, it became obvious that THIS can do anything, that the "laws" of physics are only ideas, and that in certain situations and with certain people all bets are off. Apparently THIS, via particular organisms, can know Itself in ways that most of us would consider non-ordinary. Zen, and most other non-dual traditions eschew non-ordinary experiences, special powers, etc, but it seems that non-local events are quite common. Chilton Pearce wrote about such events in his book "The Crack in the Cosmic Egg," and many modern sages have reported phenomena that fall outside the purview of anything "ordinary." My understanding of the "laws" of physics is that they rest on probabilities rather than anything definite, and "spooky action at a distance" is accepted by many mainstream physicists even if they don't fully understand what Godel's incompleteness theorem is pointing to. Just for fun, you might google Paul Morgan-Somers under the title of something like "a discussion of non-duality." His story gives a sense of what can happen. Chilton Pearce's book is interesting because he gives a good explanation of why most people who experience non-locality often don't remember much about it afterwards. He uses the phrase--"stable sameness"--to point to the way that the mind fills in the blanks (such as the two blind spots that all humans have but are papered over when looking at the visual field) and acts to remove memories that don't conform to our usual perceptions/conceptions of reality.
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 23, 2020 14:06:48 GMT -5
In my initial kensho shift (many years ago) I saw that no thing exists - only everything IS. So whatever THIS is, yes, it is THAT which looks out from all eyes - it IS all eyes. But that doesn’t give a particular perspective special powers. A particular perspective is THIS perspective-ing. This can be realised. THIS is invincible but the organism is not. THIS is eternal but the organism is not. THIS is ALL but the organism is not. The organism carries on much as before but with the certain knowledge that it is not what it thought it was. In a sense, there is now NO body-mind - there is THIS body-minding. But this doesn’t mean that the body-mind expression can now overcome the laws of physics. For me, the essence of non-duality (or no-separation) is simple. Instead of the delusion of trillions of things happening there is the felt-sense apperception of ‘one thing’ (or no thing) happening. That’s it. The rest is mainly philosophy of mind related differences and factional issues. I’m suspicious of claims about non-duality which have a supernatural basis to them. Although there may well be (there are) mysterious/ineffable structures in reality (which I don’t understand) I don’t see a connection with the realisation ‘of our true nature’ and the arising of special powers. These seem like throwbacks to a more credulous age. Mostly I agree, but one of my early existential questions went something like this, "If even a few of the 'miracle" stories from many different spiritual traditions actually happened as claimed, what could explain them?" As a result of kensho, it became obvious that THIS can do anything, that the "laws" of physics are only ideas, and that in certain situations and with certain people all bets are off. Apparently THIS, via particular organisms, can know Itself in ways that most of us would consider non-ordinary. Zen, and most other non-dual traditions eschew non-ordinary experiences, special powers, etc, but it seems that non-local events are quite common. Chilton Pearce wrote about such events in his book "The Crack in the Cosmic Egg," and many modern sages have reported phenomena that fall outside the purview of anything "ordinary." My understanding of the "laws" of physics is that they rest on probabilities rather than anything definite, and "spooky action at a distance" is accepted by many mainstream physicists even if they don't fully understand what Godel's incompleteness theorem is pointing to. Just for fun, you might google Paul Morgan-Somers under the title of something like "a discussion of non-duality." His story gives a sense of what can happen. Chilton Pearce's book is interesting because he gives a good explanation of why most people who experience non-locality often don't remember much about it afterwards. He uses the phrase--"stable sameness"--to point to the way that the mind fills in the blanks (such as the two blind spots that all humans have but are papered over when looking at the visual field) and acts to remove memories that don't conform to our usual perceptions/conceptions of reality. I agree that in principle there is no reason why THIS could not do anything - but while a particular human expression abides we find that certain laws do seem to prevail. But I referenced ‘the laws of physics’ lazily in making the point that there is no reason why realisation would bestow special supernatural gifts on the individuated perspective. The point I was initially making is that if it is, in fact, NOT the mind (of a particular organism) that is subtly aware in deep sleep - if it’s the case that the mind has, in fact, been transcended. Why on earth would there be a witness of that particular unconscious mental perspective? (Refer to the original post above to get the emphasis.) It's quite a subtle point that is worth some consideration.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 23, 2020 14:36:43 GMT -5
Mostly I agree, but one of my early existential questions went something like this, "If even a few of the 'miracle" stories from many different spiritual traditions actually happened as claimed, what could explain them?" As a result of kensho, it became obvious that THIS can do anything, that the "laws" of physics are only ideas, and that in certain situations and with certain people all bets are off. Apparently THIS, via particular organisms, can know Itself in ways that most of us would consider non-ordinary. Zen, and most other non-dual traditions eschew non-ordinary experiences, special powers, etc, but it seems that non-local events are quite common. Chilton Pearce wrote about such events in his book "The Crack in the Cosmic Egg," and many modern sages have reported phenomena that fall outside the purview of anything "ordinary." My understanding of the "laws" of physics is that they rest on probabilities rather than anything definite, and "spooky action at a distance" is accepted by many mainstream physicists even if they don't fully understand what Godel's incompleteness theorem is pointing to. Just for fun, you might google Paul Morgan-Somers under the title of something like "a discussion of non-duality." His story gives a sense of what can happen. Chilton Pearce's book is interesting because he gives a good explanation of why most people who experience non-locality often don't remember much about it afterwards. He uses the phrase--"stable sameness"--to point to the way that the mind fills in the blanks (such as the two blind spots that all humans have but are papered over when looking at the visual field) and acts to remove memories that don't conform to our usual perceptions/conceptions of reality. I agree that in principle there is no reason why THIS could not do anything - but while a particular human expression abides we find that certain laws do seem to prevail. But I referenced ‘the laws of physics’ lazily in making the point that there is no reason why realisation would bestow special supernatural gifts on the individuated perspective. The point I was initially making is that if it is, in fact, NOT the mind (of a particular organism) that is subtly aware in deep sleep - if it’s the case that the mind has, in fact, been transcended. Why on earth would there be a witness of that particular unconscious mental perspective? (Refer to the original post above to get the emphasis.) It's quite a subtle point that is worth some consideration. I did understand your point, but I wasn't associating the unusual phenomena only with realized people. Unrealized people have also had strange stuff happen. It seems to me like the usual boundary between ordinary and non-ordinary reality can break down with anyone at certain times. I've talked to several people who have had non-local events occur after attending a long silent retreat. Kensho, for just one example, is certainly not an ordinary event.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 23, 2020 14:53:12 GMT -5
Kensho, for just one example, is certainly not an ordinary event. Neither is spontaneous human combustion. Never fails to amaze how only the "person" burned up and the furniture and such left pretty much unscathed. " (google has plenty of examples)
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Post by laughter on Jun 23, 2020 23:51:51 GMT -5
Thank you for placing this quote. But still I liked this line very much " Segal: p53, "In sleep, the mind finally stopped pumping out its unceasing litany of terror, and the witness was left to witness an unconscious mind"I struggle to find credibility in such claims. If there were such a wide-awake witness throughout deep sleep - which ‘transcends mental states’ - why on earth would it have ANY connection (or association, or relationship) to a particular body-mind unit? Think about it. If the mind/identity has been left behind in deep sleep why would there be a transcendent witness of the contents or circumstances of THAT particular mind? Why would it hang about watching the unconscious body at rest (as opposed to all manner of alternative possibilities)? The reason why is surely because it is still within the sphere of that particular body-mind - albeit in a very subtle state of cognition. In other words, the mind is not really asleep.
I find it far more credible to understand such claims/assertions as a confirmation of the fact that in deep sleep ’something’ is still very much operative - a deep intelligence remains at work which is ultimately is beyond the limited cognition of ordinary waking intellect and sensory perception. This deep intelligence transcends - and is the ground of - all states.
Segal's quote was made from a personal perspective, as was yours about your kensho, here. The ultimately clarified version of the existential question is "how can I be many? and one?".
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 24, 2020 5:33:47 GMT -5
I agree that in principle there is no reason why THIS could not do anything - but while a particular human expression abides we find that certain laws do seem to prevail. But I referenced ‘the laws of physics’ lazily in making the point that there is no reason why realisation would bestow special supernatural gifts on the individuated perspective. The point I was initially making is that if it is, in fact, NOT the mind (of a particular organism) that is subtly aware in deep sleep - if it’s the case that the mind has, in fact, been transcended. Why on earth would there be a witness of that particular unconscious mental perspective? (Refer to the original post above to get the emphasis.) It's quite a subtle point that is worth some consideration. I did understand your point, but I wasn't associating the unusual phenomena only with realized people. Unrealized people have also had strange stuff happen. It seems to me like the usual boundary between ordinary and non-ordinary reality can break down with anyone at certain times. I've talked to several people who have had non-local events occur after attending a long silent retreat. Kensho, for just one example, is certainly not an ordinary event. Of course, strange stuff can happen to anyone. And yes, kensho is strange - and yet, so very familiar. But here’s what I’m getting at: Someone who claims to be conscious during the body-mind’s state of ‘not being conscious’ should be able to equally make the claim that they are aware of (let’s say) ‘another’ organism’s mental states since both are predicated on the transcendence of the limitations of local consciousness. Let me just reword that for the sake of clarity: The claim that I am awake during all states - including deep sleep and unconsciousness - is based solely on the fact that my true nature is pure consciousness. Well, pure consciousness is also and obviously aware of everybody else’s mental outlook, therefore a similar claim should be possible regarding other minds and outlooks. I’m just curious about the selectivity here. The reason (the ONLY reason) I can claim to be aware in all states is because I am pure awareness. Well then I can surely tell you what you had for breakfast and Gopal’s phone number (and all manner of other things which pure consciousness is obviously not excluded from.) That this is not the case is a very strong indicator that if there is, in fact, a talent for witnessing sleep and unconscious states then it is most probably a gift of the local mind. THIS knows no limitation - but it presents AS limitation.
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 24, 2020 5:37:17 GMT -5
I struggle to find credibility in such claims. If there were such a wide-awake witness throughout deep sleep - which ‘transcends mental states’ - why on earth would it have ANY connection (or association, or relationship) to a particular body-mind unit? Think about it. If the mind/identity has been left behind in deep sleep why would there be a transcendent witness of the contents or circumstances of THAT particular mind? Why would it hang about watching the unconscious body at rest (as opposed to all manner of alternative possibilities)? The reason why is surely because it is still within the sphere of that particular body-mind - albeit in a very subtle state of cognition. In other words, the mind is not really asleep.
I find it far more credible to understand such claims/assertions as a confirmation of the fact that in deep sleep ’something’ is still very much operative - a deep intelligence remains at work which is ultimately is beyond the limited cognition of ordinary waking intellect and sensory perception. This deep intelligence transcends - and is the ground of - all states.
Segal's quote was made from a personal perspective, as was yours about your kensho, here. The ultimately clarified version of the existential question is "how can I be many? and one?". Understood. THIS is both many and one. But there is a danger that we might import ‘attributes’ of THIS to the naturally limited capabilities of the organism (which is THIS presenting as body-minding.) Of course THIS never sleeps - but body-minds do.
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Post by ouroboros on Jun 24, 2020 8:03:19 GMT -5
Absolutely. No problem, (I don’t remember us having the conversation), but my understanding is that fire as a simile is one the Buddha often used, and there are many references to it throughout the suttas. For example, the Buddha specifically referred to the attainment of the state of nirvana as 'like a fire going out'. But in this instance the one that springs to mind would be Adittapariyaya Sutta: The Fire Sermon, where he begins by stating " the All is aflame". 'The All' is most definitely analogous to what we conceive of as the world. So, not a fake quote. Thanks, well worth the read, and I don't recall seeing that before. To my eye, effortlessness is implicated by "full release". This doesn't mean that flowers stop giving off scent, or that the eye remains closed, or the mind a blank, with no "contact" giving rise to a process of thinking. But it does mean that the old trance is not only broken, but that it can't ever deceive again. Yes, that one's mercifully short enough to hold my interest, hehe. Seems to be about detachment from the senses and mind in order for the degree of liberation you describe to come about. Unbound. No doubt that in itself is truly rare and marvellous. Although for me, "full release", as you put it, would be something even more profound. Parinibbana. With anything short of that remaining subject to some measure of 'effort'. Hmmm, I'm trying to decide whether I'd say that NS, being the closest to that, would necessitate the least 'effort', insofar as it involves the least amount of 'doing'. It's tricky to approach it like this. I found the story deeply moving. I figure most people are gonna read it and just think, what swine's boys can be!
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2020 8:03:34 GMT -5
Segal's quote was made from a personal perspective, as was yours about your kensho, here. The ultimately clarified version of the existential question is "how can I be many? and one?". Understood. THIS is both many and one. But there is a danger that we might import ‘attributes’ of THIS to the naturally limited capabilities of the organism (which is THIS presenting as body-minding.) Of course THIS never sleeps - but body-minds do. Metaphorically, we might say that the wave is the entire ocean, it just appears otherwise to most people most of the time, while the ocean isn't just the wave. But the metaphor is materially bound. These notions of size, relation, connection/continuity, etc. .. they simply don't apply. No science denial here: I'm happy to admit the relative appearance of cause and effect, and wanting supepowers is a thing, after all. On the other hand, the material realist, objective picture of reality is simply flat out untrue, and, nonlocality happens. Bringing it back to the metaphor, we call a tsunami a wave, but there's no flooding without the weight of the ocean behind it. The instant our movement of mind shades even a hare beyond metaphor to theory is the instant intellect has jumped into deep water with no life jacket.
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Post by ouroboros on Jun 24, 2020 8:05:40 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure what I'm pointing to either yet hehe, but I often see folks on these forums talking about how after SR, life becomes totally effortless, and when it comes up I find it's not something I agree with for the reasons touched upon in the OP. Yesterday I heard a sad story about a swan who was nursing a clutch of eggs. The story went that some boys came along and threw bricks at the eggs and destroyed them. Subsequently the swans partner left her, and a few days later she died. The locals concluded she died of a broken heart. Sure there may have been more to that particular tale, but regardless, I do believe in the capacity to die from a broken heart, or 'lose the will to live'. Most people will be familiar with accounts of old couples who have been together many years, and when one falls of their horse, the other is broken and follows shortly after. Additionally, I've noted before that in the face of adversity, less complex organisms seem even more disposed to simply 'give up the ghost'. Anyway, after hearing the story I was moved to throw up a post and just see where it goes. The premise is, if one can simply lose the will to live, then does that not suggest that to some extent 'will' underpins corporeal experience itself … I put a thread up some time back posing the question whether intent is something that happens on a purely conscious level. Don't think it got a lot of traction, but it seems fairly obvious to me that it's a phenomenon that runs much deeper than that. I guess will, effort, and intent, are all much-a-much, and this is about exploring that a little. To what extent i t pervades, and perhaps even underpins, corporeality. My contention is that it's to a far greater extent than is generally acknowledged. (** frowns and wags finger **) Yeah I realise that ones a tough sell. It's just that consciousness is always subject to some measure of …. 'work'.
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Post by ouroboros on Jun 24, 2020 8:09:41 GMT -5
It's essentially the same point … i.e. in order to wake at a specific time without an alarm clock, there must be a degree of conscious awareness going on within the sleep state. I understand that can be extended to deep sleep and dreaming as well, and am familiar with that too.
It's very interesting! ... (it comes through 'being present').
heh heh .. I've had it happen not by being present, but the opposite of pumping up the fear and panic trance the night before, and yet somehow, inexplicably, getting to sleep anyways with less that 5 or 6 hours to go. Essentially, I woke up a few minutes before the alarm went off out of terror that I'd sleep through it. Okay, sure, I suppose it's difficult to pinpoint what if any difference there might be between sleeping with one eye open, and what might be described as an abiding measure of lucidity throughout all states ….
But I'm confident you can do it!
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 24, 2020 8:16:37 GMT -5
Understood. THIS is both many and one. But there is a danger that we might import ‘attributes’ of THIS to the naturally limited capabilities of the organism (which is THIS presenting as body-minding.) Of course THIS never sleeps - but body-minds do. actually it's rust never sleeps Ah… so you missed out on the 1980 limited edition available to fan club members only.
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 24, 2020 8:20:17 GMT -5
Understood. THIS is both many and one. But there is a danger that we might import ‘attributes’ of THIS to the naturally limited capabilities of the organism (which is THIS presenting as body-minding.) Of course THIS never sleeps - but body-minds do. Metaphorically, we might say that the wave is the entire ocean, it just appears otherwise to most people most of the time, while the ocean isn't just the wave. But the metaphor is materially bound. These notions of size, relation, connection/continuity, etc. .. they simply don't apply. No science denial here: I'm happy to admit the relative appearance of cause and effect, and wanting supepowers is a thing, after all. On the other hand, the material realist, objective picture of reality is simply flat out untrue, and, nonlocality happens. Bringing it back to the metaphor, we call a tsunami a wave, but there's no flooding without the weight of the ocean behind it. The instant our movement of mind shades even a hare beyond metaphor to theory is the instant intellect has jumped into deep water with no life jacket. I don’t know that. If you know that ‘flat out’ then you certainly know more than me. As I said earlier, for me (in my experience/realisation) the essence of non-duality (or no-separation) is simple. Instead of the delusion of trillions of things happening there is the felt-sense apperception of ‘one thing’ (or no thing) happening. That’s it. The rest is mainly philosophy of mind related differences and factional issues - which have their place. The realisation comes in an instant - the philosophy of mind is an add-on.
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