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Post by tenka on Jul 24, 2019 3:22:57 GMT -5
I heard something the other day about a lady who supposedly went through the enlightening process for use of a better word and she was asked about the bliss bunny status, again for use of a better word . She said that she is far more open than she ever was and that she felt more sensitive to normal life situations . There's a chap from Cardiff in Wales who had a full awakening and who has been interviewed on batgap, called Paul Morgan-Somers who ZD has mentioned a couple of times. I recall him saying that since awakening he is much more grumpy. For myself I prefer my isolation more and more . I prefer to shut myself off from people and the world . I am more than happy to shut my eyes in meditation and do self healing work for 2.5 hours each evening . Not because I am striving for anything or seeking anything, it's just a way of centering myself to cope with normal life . Since my grief of late the heart opened wider and I can weep at the sufferings of others in way that I never used to . I remember my mum crying as an example when I told her about people at work for instance that are having a hard time, I thought to myself jeezus christ mum get a grip, but that's the way an open heart cookie crumbles . Doing yoga and meditation and continuing to self heal is a way of coping . It is the air that you breath in order to survive on an awareness level . Many of the spiritual guru types that we speak about on these forums lived in retreats / ashrams and led a simple life, not in the western world full of hustle and bustle, bills and work related stresses .. perhaps the world seems a little more chaotic than in the years that these teachers were teaching and living life post-reaization .. who know's for sure but times change and even though S.R. and enlightenment are in a sense realized beyond the hustle and bustle of the mind one still has to at a point live within it all and how it is for many would test the patience of a saint .. I wholly understand the side effects or the so called byproducts of living life on earth post realization .. There really is a shelf life to the smiley face and as the smiles drop the tears flow and the rage roars hehe |
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Post by lolly on Jul 24, 2019 5:32:36 GMT -5
According to the best source of information ever, Wikipedia, the Visuddhimagga 'departs" from the Pali Canon... and it is very difficult to validate anything on Buddhist grounds if it departs from the Pali Canon. So I maintain that notions of 'mere self' are not suported in Buddhist philosophy and Buddhist philosophy doesn;t include any self-theory. This is because Buddha said that self-theory will surely lead one to distress. Did you read my Dalai Lama quotes from Gentle Bridges? Do you think the Dalai Lama is not an authority concerning Buddhism? He said everyone has an innate sense of self that is not a mistaken sense of self. He said no inherent (self) existence does not mean there is no self in any sense. Personally, I don't pay much heed to the Buddhists sects of Tibet because they have strange ideas, but I'm not saying there is a self or not in the sense of 'you being someone' or that there is a true self, or that you are the universe or anything at all. I'm only saying there is nothing there which can be identified with because aggregates have no underlying enduring identity. Other people can wonder what implies about themselves personally, but according to Buddha, that will be distressing. I only suggest ceasing to do anything and start looking at it 'as it is'. Stop and look. Then all that you do without even intending to will become starkly clear. Being aware of these compultions, tendencies, brings them to an end because if you are the one aware, you are not the none doing all that. This cessation is the operation of mindfulness, awareness with equanimity, and since the volition has ceased for the observer, no kamma is generated, the psychic energy that perpetuates rebirths dies off - and the old potentials propegated by past volitions continue to arise just as they must and are wont to do. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 24, 2019 8:21:21 GMT -5
Did you read my Dalai Lama quotes from Gentle Bridges? Do you think the Dalai Lama is not an authority concerning Buddhism? He said everyone has an innate sense of self that is not a mistaken sense of self. He said no inherent (self) existence does not mean there is no self in any sense. Personally, I don't pay much heed to the Buddhists sects of Tibet because they have strange ideas, but I'm not saying there is a self or not in the sense of 'you being someone' or that there is a true self, or that you are the universe or anything at all. I'm only saying there is nothing there which can be identified with because aggregates have no underlying enduring identity. Other people can wonder what implies about themselves personally, but according to Buddha, that will be distressing. I only suggest ceasing to do anything and start looking at it 'as it is'. Stop and look. Then all that you do without even intending to will become starkly clear. Being aware of these compultions, tendencies, brings them to an end because if you are the one aware, you are not the none doing all that. This cessation is the operation of mindfulness, awareness with equanimity, and since the volition has ceased for the observer, no kamma is generated, the psychic energy that perpetuates rebirths dies off - and the old potentials propegated by past volitions continue to arise just as they must and are wont to do. I have agreed there is no inherent existence concerning a self. But, lolly's interaction with the world demonstrates the existence of lolly's self, an ordinary sense of self. You even acknowledge that the "psychic energy" is perpetuated into another life, if it is not exhausted. No inherent existence does not mean no existence of self in any sense. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 24, 2019 21:16:53 GMT -5
Posts from the last 12 hours have suddenly disappeared into thin air.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 24, 2019 21:30:35 GMT -5
Sorry, Satch. I forgot to post a link. Conversation has been moved here. |
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Post by lolly on Jul 25, 2019 0:47:33 GMT -5
Personally, I don't pay much heed to the Buddhists sects of Tibet because they have strange ideas, but I'm not saying there is a self or not in the sense of 'you being someone' or that there is a true self, or that you are the universe or anything at all. I'm only saying there is nothing there which can be identified with because aggregates have no underlying enduring identity. Other people can wonder what implies about themselves personally, but according to Buddha, that will be distressing. I only suggest ceasing to do anything and start looking at it 'as it is'. Stop and look. Then all that you do without even intending to will become starkly clear. Being aware of these compultions, tendencies, brings them to an end because if you are the one aware, you are not the none doing all that. This cessation is the operation of mindfulness, awareness with equanimity, and since the volition has ceased for the observer, no kamma is generated, the psychic energy that perpetuates rebirths dies off - and the old potentials propegated by past volitions continue to arise just as they must and are wont to do. I have agreed there is no inherent existence concerning a self. But, lolly's interaction with the world demonstrates the existence of lolly's self, an ordinary sense of self. You even acknowledge that the "psychic energy" is perpetuated into another life, if it is not exhausted. No inherent existence does not mean no existence of self in any sense. In Buddhist philosophy 'no-self' or 'non-self' refers to there being no fundamental entity behind phenomena and not really about whether or not there is a you. When 'not-self' is used it is in context of phenomena, feelings, perceptions or consciousness not being mine or myself. It doesn't say there is or isn't you. It just says phenemoena of mind matter are impermanent and therefore can't be you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 5:08:18 GMT -5
It sounds like a DWAD. E is speaking ideological nonsense. If I like chocolate ice cream and not vanilla, that's the universe, the Whole, making me like chocolate? Nonvolition means I can't like and eat chocolate ice cream? Nonsense. E's paradigm forces him to say, no space, no time, no SVP in any sense. Nonsense. Non-Volition means you can't choose one thought over another. Instead all the thoughts you have are being experienced or perceived by you. Decision are being made and you are not making instead you are experiencing the decision. You always comes in a round to start again, I don't know why. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 7:42:18 GMT -5
There's a chap from Cardiff in Wales who had a full awakening and who has been interviewed on batgap, called Paul Morgan-Somers who ZD has mentioned a couple of times. I recall him saying that since awakening he is much more grumpy. For myself I prefer my isolation more and more . I prefer to shut myself off from people and the world . I am more than happy to shut my eyes in meditation and do self healing work for 2.5 hours each evening . Not because I am striving for anything or seeking anything, it's just a way of centering myself to cope with normal life . Since my grief of late the heart opened wider and I can weep at the sufferings of others in way that I never used to . I remember my mum crying as an example when I told her about people at work for instance that are having a hard time, I thought to myself jeezus christ mum get a grip, but that's the way an open heart cookie crumbles . Doing yoga and meditation and continuing to self heal is a way of coping . It is the air that you breath in order to survive on an awareness level . Many of the spiritual guru types that we speak about on these forums lived in retreats / ashrams and led a simple life, not in the western world full of hustle and bustle, bills and work related stresses .. perhaps the world seems a little more chaotic than in the years that these teachers were teaching and living life post-reaization .. who know's for sure but times change and even though S.R. and enlightenment are in a sense realized beyond the hustle and bustle of the mind one still has to at a point live within it all and how it is for many would test the patience of a saint .. I wholly understand the side effects or the so called byproducts of living life on earth post realization .. There really is a shelf life to the smiley face and as the smiles drop the tears flow and the rage roars hehe I love this. It has no intellectual, brain puzzle quality. It's raw human experience. Grief has given you a great gift, my friend, as it did me. What helps me is trying to stay with it. I do this by constant attention to how this, the body/mind, reacts to what life and the world is offering. Rather than thinking and analyzing and categorizing everything. If I can stay in that feeling, sensing, touching, observing niche, the bullsh$t the head creates abates and my heart opens. Good luck, my friend. My inbred Catholicism kicks in now and I'll say a prayer for you. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 25, 2019 22:05:07 GMT -5
It sounds like a DWAD. E is speaking ideological nonsense. If I like chocolate ice cream and not vanilla, that's the universe, the Whole, making me like chocolate? Nonvolition means I can't like and eat chocolate ice cream? Nonsense. E's paradigm forces him to say, no space, no time, no SVP in any sense. Nonsense. Non-Volition means you can't choose one thought over another. Instead all the thoughts you have are being experienced or perceived by you. Decision are being made and you are not making instead you are experiencing the decision. You always comes in a round to start again, I don't know why. I don't know why either, but I have a theory.  Perhaps he's so intent on making me/us wrong, because the ideas are very distasteful to him, that all he can ponder is new ways to make us appear wrong, rather than considering what is actually said. Ironically, this would be an unconscious process. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 26, 2019 0:53:22 GMT -5
For myself I prefer my isolation more and more . I prefer to shut myself off from people and the world . I am more than happy to shut my eyes in meditation and do self healing work for 2.5 hours each evening . Not because I am striving for anything or seeking anything, it's just a way of centering myself to cope with normal life . Since my grief of late the heart opened wider and I can weep at the sufferings of others in way that I never used to . I remember my mum crying as an example when I told her about people at work for instance that are having a hard time, I thought to myself jeezus christ mum get a grip, but that's the way an open heart cookie crumbles . Doing yoga and meditation and continuing to self heal is a way of coping . It is the air that you breath in order to survive on an awareness level . Many of the spiritual guru types that we speak about on these forums lived in retreats / ashrams and led a simple life, not in the western world full of hustle and bustle, bills and work related stresses .. perhaps the world seems a little more chaotic than in the years that these teachers were teaching and living life post-reaization .. who know's for sure but times change and even though S.R. and enlightenment are in a sense realized beyond the hustle and bustle of the mind one still has to at a point live within it all and how it is for many would test the patience of a saint .. I wholly understand the side effects or the so called byproducts of living life on earth post realization .. There really is a shelf life to the smiley face and as the smiles drop the tears flow and the rage roars hehe I love this. It has no intellectual, brain puzzle quality. It's raw human experience. Grief has given you a great gift, my friend, as it did me. What helps me is trying to stay with it. I do this by constant attention to how this, the body/mind, reacts to what life and the world is offering. Rather than thinking and analyzing and categorizing everything. If I can stay in that feeling, sensing, touching, observing niche, the bullsh$t the head creates abates and my heart opens. Good luck, my friend. My inbred Catholicism kicks in now and I'll say a prayer for you. Likewise, I appreciate your openness of appreciating my raw human experience .  . When you pray for me, pray for cash please, no post dated cheques tho . |
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Post by tenka on Jul 26, 2019 1:03:42 GMT -5
Personally, I don't pay much heed to the Buddhists sects of Tibet because they have strange ideas, but I'm not saying there is a self or not in the sense of 'you being someone' or that there is a true self, or that you are the universe or anything at all. I'm only saying there is nothing there which can be identified with because aggregates have no underlying enduring identity. Other people can wonder what implies about themselves personally, but according to Buddha, that will be distressing. I only suggest ceasing to do anything and start looking at it 'as it is'. Stop and look. Then all that you do without even intending to will become starkly clear. Being aware of these compultions, tendencies, brings them to an end because if you are the one aware, you are not the none doing all that. This cessation is the operation of mindfulness, awareness with equanimity, and since the volition has ceased for the observer, no kamma is generated, the psychic energy that perpetuates rebirths dies off - and the old potentials propegated by past volitions continue to arise just as they must and are wont to do. I have agreed there is no inherent existence concerning a self. But, lolly's interaction with the world demonstrates the existence of lolly's self, an ordinary sense of self. You even acknowledge that the "psychic energy" is perpetuated into another life, if it is not exhausted. No inherent existence does not mean no existence of self in any sense. As ramana say's ''When there is a Self, self-awareness is the witness. When there is no self to witness, there is no witnessing either''. So self does exist for as long as there is witnessing . When there is no witnessing there is no self, but Self remains . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 4:11:33 GMT -5
Non-Volition means you can't choose one thought over another. Instead all the thoughts you have are being experienced or perceived by you. Decision are being made and you are not making instead you are experiencing the decision. You always comes in a round to start again, I don't know why. I don't know why either, but I have a theory. Perhaps he's so intent on making me/us wrong, because the ideas are very distasteful to him, that all he can ponder is new ways to make us appear wrong, rather than considering what is actually said. Ironically, this would be an unconscious process. yes. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 26, 2019 7:10:50 GMT -5
Non-Volition means you can't choose one thought over another. Instead all the thoughts you have are being experienced or perceived by you. Decision are being made and you are not making instead you are experiencing the decision. You always comes in a round to start again, I don't know why. I don't know why either, but I have a theory. Perhaps he's so intent on making me/us wrong, because the ideas are very distasteful to him, that all he can ponder is new ways to make us appear wrong, rather than considering what is actually said. Ironically, this would be an unconscious process. I was honestly trying to get clarification on your meaning of individuation, and point of perception. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 26, 2019 10:18:21 GMT -5
I have agreed there is no inherent existence concerning a self. But, lolly's interaction with the world demonstrates the existence of lolly's self, an ordinary sense of self. You even acknowledge that the "psychic energy" is perpetuated into another life, if it is not exhausted. No inherent existence does not mean no existence of self in any sense. As ramana say's ''When there is a Self, self-awareness is the witness. When there is no self to witness, there is no witnessing either''. So self does exist for as long as there is witnessing . When there is no witnessing there is no self, but Self remains . It's Niz, and the quote is "When there is a self, self-awareness is the witness. When there is no self to witness, there is no witnessing either." It doesn't say self exists for as long as there is witnessing. It says self comes and goes, and the witnessing is dependent upon a self to witness. Pure awareness becomes self awareness when there is a self to witness. He goes on to say "See that there is no such thing as a permanently separate person and all becomes clear." The existence of a self is not being confirmed, nor is the existence of a Self. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 26, 2019 10:40:23 GMT -5
I don't know why either, but I have a theory. Perhaps he's so intent on making me/us wrong, because the ideas are very distasteful to him, that all he can ponder is new ways to make us appear wrong, rather than considering what is actually said. Ironically, this would be an unconscious process. I was honestly trying to get clarification on your meaning of individuation, and point of perception. If you were honestly seeking clarification, you would have addressed me and you would have asked me something and you wouldn't have dismissed it as "ideological nonsense". Gopal and I were referring to your inability to understand what we mean by non-volition even though it has been explained a gazillion times. However, that also applies to point of perception. I know you to be an intelligent guy with endless facts at you fingertips, so we were 'honestly trying to get clarification' as to this phenomena. |
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Perhaps he's so intent on making me/us wrong, because the ideas are very distasteful to him, that all he can ponder is new ways to make us appear wrong, rather than considering what is actually said. Ironically, this would be an unconscious process. 
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