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Post by laughter on Jul 15, 2019 9:41:29 GMT -5
Makes sense. Sounds like sound advice.  There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted. I usually get out of bed as fast as I can and stand on the balls of my feet when a leg muscle cramps. Unless the meditation works extremely fast, pain from the cramp will usually be more severe and last longer if the muscle isn't immediately stretched. As a side note for those who might be interested in this, as one ages, it gets easier and easier to tear muscles and tendons. Several years ago I tore a calf muscle while hiking up a steep trail in the mountains. The tear was minor, but I didn't know that it was a tear. Rather than turn around I kept hiking and climbing while thinking that the moderate pain would diminish after a few more miles. It didn't, and my leg was sore the next day. Still not realizing what had happened I went dancing, and attempted a spin turn during a waltz, which puts all of the body's weight and force on that one calf muscle. This time there was an loud audible pop as the tear ripped apart the muscle, and the pain was like getting stabbed with a knife. It put me on crutches and out of commission for more than two months, and I learned that the only remedy for such a tear is either surgery or gentle repetitive stretching. Today I have to spend several minutes stretching that particular muscle (as well as a few other leg muscles) before either hiking or dancing. My brother-in-law is a physical therapist, and he told me that he sees this kind of injury all the time in people over the age of 55. He advises several kinds of leg stretches before any kind of strenuous exercise, but he said that almost no one takes his advice until after a major injury. Letting the pain flow through you can happen as you move around! The two might sound incompatible, but they're not. And, respecting the mechanics of the body, is never a bad idea. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 15, 2019 9:46:50 GMT -5
Awareness sans reactivity, that we call 'equanimity', is stop doing and see it as it is. That 'stop doing' is cessation of volition, which is cessation of 'cause'. This is easier said than (not) done, and I'm just attempting to explain that just a little. Yes I understand that and you are explaining it extremely well. I'm sure that zendancer could also contribute some useful comments on this subject. The only thing that I would add is that in what we call "the natural state" there's no need to "stop doing and see it as it is;" any reactivity that occurs is just the normal functioning of THIS. Reflectivity about reactivity doesn't even happen. Life just flows along without the idea of either control or no control, volition or no volition. If irritation occurs, irritation, and if no irritation occurs, no irritation. Everything is accepted as it is without reflection about an entity that is separate from what's happening. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 15, 2019 9:55:32 GMT -5
Yes I understand that and you are explaining it extremely well. I'm sure that zendancer could also contribute some useful comments on this subject. The only thing that I would add is that in what we call "the natural state" there's no need to "stop doing and see it as it is;" any reactivity that occurs is just the normal functioning of THIS. Reflectivity about reactivity doesn't even happen. Life just flows along without the idea of either control or no control, volition or no volition. If irritation occurs, irritation, and if no irritation occurs, no irritation. Everything is accepted as it is without reflection about an entity that is separate from what's happening. Yes but advice on meditation practice and practice itself is for those who are not yet in the natural state, otherwise there's no need to practice anymore. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 15, 2019 10:00:04 GMT -5
The only thing that I would add is that in what we call "the natural state" there's no need to "stop doing and see it as it is;" any reactivity that occurs is just the normal functioning of THIS. Reflectivity about reactivity doesn't even happen. Life just flows along without the idea of either control or no control, volition or no volition. If irritation occurs, irritation, and if no irritation occurs, no irritation. Everything is accepted as it is without reflection about an entity that is separate from what's happening. Yes but advice on meditation practice and practice itself is for those who are not yet in the natural state, otherwise there's no need to practice anymore. Correct. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 10:31:22 GMT -5
Buddhism as is often the case over complicates things. Equanimity arises automatically from abiding in awareness. Basically, people start meditation, and if they follow the mindful principles, they will notice and become conscious of the reactivity associated with their sensations. The conscious awareness of the reactivity enables people to cease reacting. Conscious awareness without reactivity is what we call 'equanimity'. It isn't a thing which is there per-se, so although we say meditation is the cultivation of equanimity, we really mean it is the cessation of reactivity. I agree. It implies what I call a purification of mind, or becoming conscious. Abiding in awareness as the sole focus of a meditation practice does not have this effect. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 10:33:54 GMT -5
There are states of meditation that I'd describe as a sort of disembodiment, especially with the eyes closed, where sounds initially become more acute and even far-off sounds are noticed, but eventually, the sounds and sensation of the movement of the air start to feel as if they're coming down to you as if through a long corridor, and you even start to forget about the contact of your body with the ground. Awareness remains, and even intensifies. A meditator can "go inside" to find a state transcendent of the physical. Regardless of whether or not this is the goal, it can be informative, and attractive. In my training it was said that mindstates as you describe are common enough, but you then come back to the fullness of sensation after a time, and perhaps then crave a repeat experience. Then meditations become for the purpose to experience what they desire, and rather than practice equanimity, it becomes the practice of craving. That's the difference between seeing it 'as it is' and making it 'as you want it to be'. Precisely. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 15, 2019 10:38:56 GMT -5
In my training it was said that mindstates as you describe are common enough, but you then come back to the fullness of sensation after a time, and perhaps then crave a repeat experience. Then meditations become for the purpose to experience what they desire, and rather than practice equanimity, it becomes the practice of craving. That's the difference between seeing it 'as it is' and making it 'as you want it to be'. Precisely. On the other hand, someone who's had that experience meditating very well might have a different perspective on various pointing about awareness, consciousness and the nature of appearances. And that's not to argue for or insist on a temporal, causal chain relative to the appearance of a process of purification by becoming conscious. It's just an observation on how the appearance of that process might appear.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 15, 2019 11:07:30 GMT -5
Thanks for relating that about the purification/healing process. Some people have lived lives that are fortunate, and so don't have scars that are as relatively deep as other's. The Buddha's story is an example of that. And also, this insight into the second noble truth you alluded to one message back: this can happen to someone before they've gone through that process of purification. What can happen in that case is like a duck/bunny: some people refer to it as "spiritual bypassing", and this critique seems to me to have some teeth to it. But on the other hand, the process of becoming conscious can still happen after the nature of the false sense of self has been seen through with finality, and it happens quite differently in that instance. They say that depending on the extreme of the reaction, the sankara is proportionally deeper etched in the mind, so people who endured severe abuses might have patricularly severe sorrows and lamentations to resolve, but I dare say everyone has their fair share of things hidden away where conscious awareness avoids. Blatant example is how some people drink heavily to avoid psychological torment... but people have all kinds of distractions based on what has always worked in the past... and this is an aversion to one rising sensation and desire for another. The grog is only a means, but the actual objects of desire and aversion are the sensations. I don't think it's particularly relevant how deep the wounds are, but when the extremes of these come into conscious awareness mindful equanimity becomes difficult because the tendency to react is habitual and it has always worked to avoid said difficult arisings in the past. One needs to be deliberate in seeing it 'as it is' in the way it happens to be because this current arising was generated a long time ago and has been carried within the life form, albeit avoided, ever since. When one becomes deliberate about equanimity, they notice the avoidance reaction strategy before it gets too far out of hand and are able to maintain their composure as a neutral observer as the emotional storm reaches full force and then passes away. The only difference it, this time the meditator did not react and the whole avoidance mechanism stopped. Next time a memory of the traumatic occasion arises one will find there might be remnants of the trauma, but not enough to rattle the person so much, and after a time, the occasion will remain true, it happened, but no longer have any traumatic, reactive effect. Once the reactive tendency has subsided at that level, and one retains equanimity with it, of course the mind goes deeper into the lifeform to a subtler level than before, and again, with pure awareness, the purification continues at a deeper level. People will transcend, or bypass if you like, but they will come back to any reactive process still wound up in the lifeform so it can 'come to light' and dissolve away, so it seems to be necessary to peer 'all the way through' to release the 'impurities' created by volitions past and subsequently held on to - and so far as I can tell, there no way to bypass, or IOW, avoid it.
. As a kid I almost never went barefoot but once I happened to be outside a barn where the cows gathered to enter, barefoot. I stepped on a piece of broken glass and cut the bottom of my foot. It wasn't too bad and healed over. But a few days after it healed over my foot became very painful. I had to be taken to the doctor who said my foot had abscessed, from the outside it looked OK, but there was infection inside. I still have an X scar, about 5/8" by 5/8", on the bottom of my foot where the doctor cut to get to the abscess. The impurities have to be dealt with at some point. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 11:09:46 GMT -5
For me the problem with that philosophy is that you have absolutely no control over your suffering and reactivity because you are not the doer. You can pull back the arrow in the bow but once you release the arrow you have no control over it where it strikes. Peering 'all the way through' to release the 'impurities' created by volitions past will not lead to release. Manipulating and trying to change karmic tendencies can never lead to liberation because you are just replacing one set of conditioning with another set of conditioning. Transcendence alone leads to release and although it is temporary in the practice stage, each time you return back into the relative field of action you are bringing that unbounded value back into the relative and integrating it into the totality of experience. This process loosens the knot of identification and attachment. You are stuck with the results of dependent origination so operating on that level is futile. While it is true that you are not the doer, the doing still gets done. We can talk about what beliefs are held that lead to this doing and perhaps avoid the often misunderstood and stifling issue of volition. The belief that, since there is no doer, that certain things should not be done because they cannot be done is destructive, and we can only imagine that the choice as to what can be done and can't be done is activated through unconscious desire and fear as there are not two such categories. One cannot 'pull back the arrow' any more than he can control where it strikes. One cannot choose to release impurities, and yet they will be released with honesty, sincerity, and perhaps the form of mindful meditation that Lolly describes. There is no doer, and yet the doing will result in purification. Beliefs can change, karmic tendencies can be removed, and this is not only auspicious, but may even be a prerequisite to genuine SR. This is about examining the beliefs that are held, and not about volition. It's about clarity. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 11:15:33 GMT -5
In my training it was said that mindstates as you describe are common enough, but you then come back to the fullness of sensation after a time, and perhaps then crave a repeat experience. Then meditations become for the purpose to experience what they desire, and rather than practice equanimity, it becomes the practice of craving. That's the difference between seeing it 'as it is' and making it 'as you want it to be'. Makes sense. Sounds like sound advice. There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted. Yes, it's actually true of any pain. Something relatively minor, such as a headache, can become simply sensation, not experienced as painful. The mind creates the pain. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 15, 2019 11:20:16 GMT -5
Makes sense. Sounds like sound advice. There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted. Yes, it's actually true of any pain. Something relatively minor, such as a headache, can become simply sensation, not experienced as painful. The mind creates the pain. The way I like to put it is that mind creates the suffering, while the pain is just a fact that's happening, for as long as it's happening. The suffering can make the pain worse, and extend it, and there's really no reason to be neutral about the pain, unless one is just beginning to become conscious of the content and structure of their mind and how it relates to what they think is their body. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 15, 2019 11:52:50 GMT -5
Yes I understand that and you are explaining it extremely well. I'm sure that zendancer could also contribute some useful comments on this subject. The only thing that I would add is that in what we call "the natural state" there's no need to "stop doing and see it as it is;" any reactivity that occurs is just the normal functioning of THIS. Reflectivity about reactivity doesn't even happen. Life just flows along without the idea of either control or no control, volition or no volition. If irritation occurs, irritation, and if no irritation occurs, no irritation. Everything is accepted as it is without reflection about an entity that is separate from what's happening. Mostly, it's been discussed in the context of being a conscious seeker, but you raise the question, what is "the normal functioning of THIS"? Irritation may be normal, but what about anger? Fear may be normal, but what about terror? Are unconscious reactions to past hurts normal for THIS. After all, you are THIS expressing in the world as an individual. What sort of expression might we expect once this is known to be the case? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 15, 2019 12:22:24 GMT -5
The only thing that I would add is that in what we call "the natural state" there's no need to "stop doing and see it as it is;" any reactivity that occurs is just the normal functioning of THIS. Reflectivity about reactivity doesn't even happen. Life just flows along without the idea of either control or no control, volition or no volition. If irritation occurs, irritation, and if no irritation occurs, no irritation. Everything is accepted as it is without reflection about an entity that is separate from what's happening. Mostly, it's been discussed in the context of being a conscious seeker, but you raise the question, what is "the normal functioning of THIS"? Irritation may be normal, but what about anger? Fear may be normal, but what about terror? Are unconscious reactions to past hurts normal for THIS.After all, you are THIS expressing in the world as an individual. What sort of expression might we expect once this is known to be the case? Most excellent question. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 15, 2019 12:25:48 GMT -5
For me the problem with that philosophy is that you have absolutely no control over your suffering and reactivity because you are not the doer. You can pull back the arrow in the bow but once you release the arrow you have no control over it where it strikes. Peering 'all the way through' to release the 'impurities' created by volitions past will not lead to release. Manipulating and trying to change karmic tendencies can never lead to liberation because you are just replacing one set of conditioning with another set of conditioning. Transcendence alone leads to release and although it is temporary in the practice stage, each time you return back into the relative field of action you are bringing that unbounded value back into the relative and integrating it into the totality of experience. This process loosens the knot of identification and attachment. You are stuck with the results of dependent origination so operating on that level is futile. While it is true that you are not the doer, the doing still gets done. We can talk about what beliefs are held that lead to this doing and perhaps avoid the often misunderstood and stifling issue of volition. The belief that, since there is no doer, that certain things should not be done because they cannot be done is destructive, and we can only imagine that the choice as to what can be done and can't be done is activated through unconscious desire and fear as there are not two such categories. One cannot 'pull back the arrow' any more than he can control where it strikes. One cannot choose to release impurities, and yet they will be released with honesty, sincerity, and perhaps the form of mindful meditation that Lolly describes. There is no doer, and yet the doing will result in purification. Beliefs can change, karmic tendencies can be removed, and this is not only auspicious, but may even be a prerequisite to genuine SR. This is about examining the beliefs that are held, and not about volition. It's about clarity. I will be very interested in sca's response. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 15, 2019 12:41:42 GMT -5
While it is true that you are not the doer, the doing still gets done. We can talk about what beliefs are held that lead to this doing and perhaps avoid the often misunderstood and stifling issue of volition. The belief that, since there is no doer, that certain things should not be done because they cannot be done is destructive, and we can only imagine that the choice as to what can be done and can't be done is activated through unconscious desire and fear as there are not two such categories. One cannot 'pull back the arrow' any more than he can control where it strikes. One cannot choose to release impurities, and yet they will be released with honesty, sincerity, and perhaps the form of mindful meditation that Lolly describes. There is no doer, and yet the doing will result in purification. Beliefs can change, karmic tendencies can be removed, and this is not only auspicious, but may even be a prerequisite to genuine SR. This is about examining the beliefs that are held, and not about volition. It's about clarity. I will be very interested in sca's response. Non doership and not self are not beliefs. That's why it's clear. That's the clarity. |
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There's a meditation that one can do if they ever get a charlie horse. Just let the intense pain flow through you. It's over more quickly if it isn't resisted.
