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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 13:30:08 GMT -5
Do you take issue with that quote and if so, why? You used to be quite insistent yourself that all that can be known is "I exist". I can pull up a quote if you like...? Not interested in rehashing this again. That horse is long dead. Let's leave it that way.  Fair enough.
However, the seeing that all that can be known for certain is "I exist and the world arises within/to that...all One" is the very basis of nonduality and therefore, all talk about enlightenment/awakening. Thus, the validity of your critique of what Jed says hinges upon whether or not you agree or disagree with that assertion.
If you disagree with that most basic assertion, you're on a completely different page from the get-go with not just Jed but all the well-accepted gurus.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 13:56:16 GMT -5
Human affairs
Jed: The fact is that I cannot participate in human affairs. I’m sorry, I know how stupid that sounds, but that’s really how it is... I have no framework, or even the memory of a framework, within which to conduct any but the most mundane interpersonal dialogue. I don’t even know the words anymore, or why one thing might be better than another. If I had to live one day from Lisa’s old life, I would think myself accursed. Just getting together with buddies on Sunday afternoon to drink beer and watch a ballgame would be a hellish torment. The highpoint of Dennis and Lisa’s year, the vacation, seems to me an unbearable hardship. If I had to spend five minutes on a cruise ship or in Las Vegas or any place with people in mouse costumes, I’d seek escape as from a burning house. That people subject themselves to such ordeals willingly, for pleasure and at considerable expense, is completely outside my comprehension.
As always, it’s important to remember that it's not me personally we re talking about. These same things would be equally true for anyone in even a modestly developed state of Adulthood. Jed McKenna, Spiritual Warfare, Chapter 11 A really good example of where he goes too far, overstating things, but I gotta say, it did make me laugh out loud.  This is a good example of where I'm not sure if he's just exaggerating for the humor, using hyperbole, or he really would be experiencing 'hellish torment....unbearable hardship' under those conditions.
Way back, I was appalled and took it at face value and evidence that he was not even close to being at peace. These days I'd be more inclined to say he's exaggerating/trying to be funny. (which for some reason, it really IS to me!...I suppose because I can relate....just a little teensy eensy bit )
And just in case he's not using hyperbole...I'll add, I don't dispute that likes/dislikes continue on post SR, but, This is really the same conversation as the 'can blameful/vengeful anger arise post SR?' Feelings/emotions of a certain depth, simply have nothing from which to arise upon once the SVP is not longer in play. An experience of 'unbearable hardship' in the face of drinking beer, watching sports would have to mean the presence of attachment/delusion. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 14:17:58 GMT -5
This is where Jed betrays himself. The inability and aversion to interact with the world. And if it's not him personally he is talking about then who is it is he talking about? He thinks he can speak for all enlightened beings collectively. But this one here is even better: Classic! Yes. In explaining that all 'you's' are arising appearances to Being, seems he feels the need to get a few digs in; 'minor character...semi-coherent energy pattern....a bit player.' A little disdain there I'd say.
And when you factor in that he speaks about human adulthood encompassing the ability to manifest desires, you gotta ask; Why is he, one who has supposedly gone way past human adulthood still not manifesting a reality that is to his liking?
For me, the largest hypocricies in his books stood out in his descriptions of interactions with others...feelings about others. But again, taken purely as a fictional story, that can serve as part and parcel of the entertainment value.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 14:35:31 GMT -5
Then it seems I misunderstood your position. I was under the impression that you agree with Laffy who seems to consider the entire book(s) as some kind of elaborate joke (at least that's how I understood his position). No. And I don't think that is Laffy's position, but rather, he just sees that the author has and writes with a sense of humor. My sense upon initial reading was that certain contradictions, hypocrisies, overstatements were on purpose to illuminate the very fallacy of thinking of oneself as enlightened, and trying to encapsulate how life is for the SR, into a coherent story. I guess just because that's what I got out of reading the books, doesn't necessarily mean that was the intention. But again, who knows? (look how many times we've said this...and THAT is, in my estimation, by design). Yeah..perhaps. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 4, 2019 19:17:25 GMT -5
Those definitional issues become clear if you follow someone deep enough in a live dialog. There's no way the fear of death can persist either. That's a certain commonality. But from what I've learned about the past culture and other minds from these dialogs, there's an interest in what happens even beyond this. Jed is essentially on one extreme end of that. I ain't got time to go out and meet people to make up my own mind about it and even if I did, the sample space would still be waaay too small to draw any abstract conclusions about the possibility of sainthood. I wouldn't draw any existential conclusion from Jed's apparent misanthropy. Well, I'd agree that it's difficult and maybe not all that useful to make a list of appropriate behavior patters that would describe sainthood. Nevertheless, certain attitudes go hand in hand with certain perspectives. And some of Jed's attitudes are typical attitudes of a perspective rooted in separation, not oneness. From my perspective, it would take a considerable amount of mental contortions to make it look the other way. The alienation thing is just the most obvious one in a practical context and the solipsism is another one in a theoretical context. I'd probably could come up with a lot more, but I don't want to over-analyze the books because 1) they are not all that good and 2) I look at the books as a whole anyway. And the overall impression is that what he describes there as the enlightened state or perspective is not actually the enlightened perspective. And as I've already said, we should distinguish between the first book and the later books. Most of my recent criticism is based on the later books. And since you haven't read those books, it doesn't make much sense belaboring this point with you. Because the Jed you are talking about is not the Jed I am talking about. We are a bit talking past each other. So my suggesting to you would be to either read the other books (and also the first book again) in case you have to prove a point, or just drop it in case you have nothing to prove. I'd give the same advice to Figgles, who seems to have read all three books, but it's probably been a few years since so memory may not be so fresh anymore. I'm fine with either decision, I have no dog in this fight and always willing to agree to disagree. I'm surprised by your suggestion to drop it, as it didn't seem to me as if I was trying to prove anything. (** shrug **) |
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Post by laughter on Aug 4, 2019 19:23:58 GMT -5
There's no way the fear of death can persist either. That's a certain commonality. But from what I've learned about the past culture and other minds from these dialogs, there's an interest in what happens even beyond this. Jed is essentially on one extreme end of that. I ain't got time to go out and meet people to make up my own mind about it and even if I did, the sample space would still be waaay too small to draw any abstract conclusions about the possibility of sainthood. I wouldn't draw any existential conclusion from Jed's apparent misanthropy. Well, I can absolutely identify with misanthropy. 'Jed' was that way since his early adolescence, as he was highly intelligent and observant. And most highly intelligent philosophers were/are misanthropes. Not what people want to hear, but. Of course, 'Jed' managed to package his misanthropy in a very sell-able format.
There's a belief among some folks of the ideal of a perfected saint, I've heard this expressed by more than one individual who I consider otherwise insightful, and people tend to get rather defensive when they're challenged on this and their other notions about what an "enlightened life" should be. I've always enjoyed offering alternative contemplative perspectives to my friends, but especially as time goes on, I'm reverting more and more to the way I was before I got interested in this culture: let other people believe what they want to believe, 'cause they're probably gonna' keep thinking the way they think anyways. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 4, 2019 19:29:47 GMT -5
Ah, yes, the dialogues from here; Gotcha.
The 'tongue in cheek' bit I was really only attributing to the specific bit you quoted. I didn't mean that the entire body of his writings are all tongue in cheek in a blanket sense.
I'm sure he does mean what he says, but doesn't his seeing/saying that all that can be known is existence pretty much put any of the opinion based stuff or even ideas 'about' experience, ideas that are not related to the seeing of Oneness/singular existence, in their place?
As I recall, he does mention "It's all lies" rather frequently.
Then it seems I misunderstood your position. I was under the impression that you agree with Laffy who seems to consider the entire book(s) as some kind of elaborate joke (at least that's how I understood his position). Like I said, he's fluent in non-dualese. He says the right things (mostly). But, as you well know, that doesn't have to mean anything. And it is my impression that, after having read the infamous trilogy and now looking at his work as a whole, in Jed's case it really doesn't mean anything. It's just words, mental kungfu. No, that's not what I thought, at all, only that it was a pronounced facet of it. I actually expressed the direct opposite, as far as bottom-line. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 4, 2019 19:31:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I figured you'd love that one. It's one of those quotes that gave me this 'pure Enfigma' feeling I mentioned earlier.  Just to be clear: the goal of this thread is to present Jed's perspective as accurately as possible. Which means don't assume just because I posted something that I necessarily agree with what's been said there. I may or may not agree with the quotes I post here. I agree with a lot of the quotes I've already posted, but I also disagree with a lot of them, and then there are other quotes that I just find interesting but have no actual opinion about. So keep that in mind while reading along. Do you take issue with that quote and if so, why? You used to be quite insistent yourself that all that can be known is "I exist". I can pull up a quote if you like...? Not everyone needs to go through not-knowing. It's just one potential facet of the infinite possible paths. If folks can't relate, they can't relate. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 4, 2019 19:45:53 GMT -5
The Ministry of Awakening
Jed: The book 1984 takes place in the country of Oceania where the motto is "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength. Oceania is governed by four ministries, the names of which “exhibit a sort of impudence in their deliberate reversal of the facts." The Ministry of Love is where all the torture and brainwashing are done. The Ministry of Peace wages a never-ending war. The Ministry of Plenty is in charge of restricting the supply of food and goods. The Ministry of Truth is in charge of lies and propaganda. In keeping with that impudent naming practice, we can look to our own Ministry of Awakening, the spiritual marketplace, where we find all the sages and teachers and philosophers and scholars hard at work doing exactly what our own Big Brother, Maya, wants them to be doing: Making sure everyone stays sound asleep. Jed McKenna, Spiritual Warfare, Chapter 19 Yet, Jed effortlessly merged with the said Ministry of Awakening that he targets his scathing wit at. The truth is the books wete conceived as a business, and he once expressed it quite explicitely. But as someone once said to me in his 'after'state "Now what? Go make some money I guess". ha! ha! .. now there's no way I'll buy any of the others! |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2019 22:18:18 GMT -5
Yet, Jed effortlessly merged with the said Ministry of Awakening that he targets his scathing wit at. The truth is the books wete conceived as a business, and he once expressed it quite explicitely. But as someone once said to me in his 'after'state "Now what? Go make some money I guess". Yes, the irony! I figured that much already. And it's also obvious that Jed had problems filling his books with actual content. In the second book, maybe 1/3 is just quotes from other books. It's that bad. And this wisefoolpress entity just seems to exist to publish the Jed stuff, right? |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2019 22:34:02 GMT -5
Human affairs
Jed: The fact is that I cannot participate in human affairs. I’m sorry, I know how stupid that sounds, but that’s really how it is... I have no framework, or even the memory of a framework, within which to conduct any but the most mundane interpersonal dialogue. I don’t even know the words anymore, or why one thing might be better than another. If I had to live one day from Lisa’s old life, I would think myself accursed. Just getting together with buddies on Sunday afternoon to drink beer and watch a ballgame would be a hellish torment. The highpoint of Dennis and Lisa’s year, the vacation, seems to me an unbearable hardship. If I had to spend five minutes on a cruise ship or in Las Vegas or any place with people in mouse costumes, I’d seek escape as from a burning house. That people subject themselves to such ordeals willingly, for pleasure and at considerable expense, is completely outside my comprehension.
As always, it’s important to remember that it's not me personally we re talking about. These same things would be equally true for anyone in even a modestly developed state of Adulthood. Jed McKenna, Spiritual Warfare, Chapter 11 A really good example of where he goes too far, overstating things, but I gotta say, it did make me laugh out loud. This is a good example of where I'm not sure if he's just exaggerating for the humor, using hyperbole, or he really would be experiencing 'hellish torment....unbearable hardship' under those conditions. Way back, I was appalled and took it at face value and evidence that he was not even close to being at peace. These days I'd be more inclined to say he's exaggerating/trying to be funny. (which for some reason, it really IS to me!...I suppose because I can relate....just a little teensy eensy bit ) And just in case he's not using hyperbole...I'll add, I don't dispute that likes/dislikes continue on post SR, but, This is really the same conversation as the 'can blameful/vengeful anger arise post SR?' Feelings/emotions of a certain depth, simply have nothing from which to arise upon once the SVP is not longer in play. An experience of 'unbearable hardship' in the face of drinking beer, watching sports would have to mean the presence of attachment/delusion. If it would have just been this one quote, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But it's not just that one instance, this is just an example. It goes on and on like this thru-out every book. That's why I say, look at it as a whole. If it would be just one or a couple more instances, I'd excuse it the same way you do. But when you've read the entire trilogy, you'll realize that this is something systemic. And as such, it's way off. He does say a lot of things just for effect. No doubt. It's pretty obvious. And in and of itself, hyperbole is not an issue if used sparsely and wisely. But he doesn't do that. Hyperbole seems to be his only device. And as a result, he sometimes does cross the line into distastefulness, IMO (see the story about the disfigured girl and the haiku about throwing a baby against a wall). There's something seriously amiss there. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2019 22:48:03 GMT -5
He thinks he can speak for all enlightened beings collectively. But this one here is even better: Classic! Yes. In explaining that all 'you's' are arising appearances to Being, seems he feels the need to get a few digs in; 'minor character...semi-coherent energy pattern....a bit player.' A little disdain there I'd say. And when you factor in that he speaks about human adulthood encompassing the ability to manifest desires, you gotta ask; Why is he, one who has supposedly gone way past human adulthood still not manifesting a reality that is to his liking?
For me, the largest hypocricies in his books stood out in his descriptions of interactions with others...feelings about others. But again, taken purely as a fictional story, that can serve as part and parcel of the entertainment value.
He's basically copying the A-H stuff. But in a rather ham-handed way. What he calls the integrated state, is basically what A-H call alignment or what ZD calls flow. Yes, the interactions are really weird. I think this is due to Jed suffering a bit from over-thinking. The entire trilogy comes across as rather over-intellectual. And the entertainment value is greatly diminished after you realize that these interactions all follow the exact same pattern in every book. Yawn. But again, even the most bogus teachers and most silliest books can be of value in that they provide a certain amount of contrast which can give you a whole new set of options. Different people see different things in the books and get different things out of them. I've just read the books out of curiosity and I also read them systematically, making notes, because I wanted to talk about it here on the forum. So my advantage is that I'm well-prepared to talk about it in detail. Tano has done even more work. She can go into even more details. I don't know when you read the books and if you have taken notes etc. but it seems you didn't read them for a specific purpose. So maybe you are unaware of some episodes in the books and are more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it has been interesting comparing 'notes', especially with Tano. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2019 22:59:10 GMT -5
Then it seems I misunderstood your position. I was under the impression that you agree with Laffy who seems to consider the entire book(s) as some kind of elaborate joke (at least that's how I understood his position). No. And I don't think that is Laffy's position, but rather, he just sees that the author has and writes with a sense of humor. My sense upon initial reading was that certain contradictions, hypocrisies, overstatements were on purpose to illuminate the very fallacy of thinking of oneself as enlightened, and trying to encapsulate how life is for the SR, into a coherent story. I guess just because that's what I got out of reading the books, doesn't necessarily mean that was the intention. But again, who knows? (look how many times we've said this...and THAT is, in my estimation, by design). Yeah..perhaps. I agree, posing as the most enlightened dude ever right from the start in the first book comes across as him just having fun slaying holy cows and breaking taboos. But the further you read, the more you'll realize that he actually believes that, especially the parts where he criticizes the various traditions. What's also quite telling is that he doesn't get Zen and koans. That's typical for over-intellectual people. I've seen this on the forum a lot. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2019 23:04:01 GMT -5
I'm surprised by your suggestion to drop it, as it didn't seem to me as if I was trying to prove anything. (** shrug **) "heh heh ... I can understand why it would seem that way to you... heh heh ... butt WIBIGO is WIBIGO... heh heh" |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2019 23:07:22 GMT -5
Ramana Maharshi & The Outward Only Club (2)
Jed: The sincere practice of self-inquiry would require a year or two of excruciatingly intense processing to go all the way through. It’s not like a question to be answered or an epiphany to be realized or a thought to be pondered, it's more like a mountain of ignorance that has to be pulverized into particulate, stone by stone.
Looking at Ramana Maharshi and self-inquiry affords us a very clear view of this phenomenon…Why isn’t anyone going anywhere? Because they've convinced themselves that they are going somewhere. Why? Because their spiritual masters and advisors tell them they are. Why are their spiritual masters and advisors telling them they’re going somewhere? To get the gig.
We pick our teachers. We get what we wish for. We want cozy, uninterrupted slumber and the dream of spiritual progress, and that’s what we get. If all Ramana had ever said was, Ask yourself. Who am I?, if that had been his answer to every single question put to him, then he’d have been the perfect teacher with the perfect teaching, but no one would have ever heard of him and we wouldn’t be discussing him now. We know about him because of all the thousands of questions people asked him and all the thousands of answers he gave, but every single one of those questions was the exact same question: Outward? And every single answer he ever gave was the exact same answer: Yes!
Self-inquiry was not Ramana’s core teaching. That's Maya’s shell game and we’re the suckers lining up, eager to get fleeced. But as every swindler and conman knows, you can’t cheat an honest man. Ramana’s true core teaching, if you care to pull back the curtain and look, was Outward. In real progress, there are no questions or answers, there is no knowledge or teaching, there is only going and not going. Inward.
Jed McKenna, Spiritual Warfare, Chapter 19
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This is a good example of where I'm not sure if he's just exaggerating for the humor, using hyperbole, or he really would be experiencing 'hellish torment....unbearable hardship' under those conditions. 
