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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2019 11:05:10 GMT -5
I recently wrote an article about this issue, and thought I'd summarize and explain the advice included in the article. The two main admonitions suggested were: 1. Pursue ATA-T (attend the actual minus thought), which I've written about in the past, and which most posters here are familiar with. This is the fastest way to attain some mental space and mental silence that I'm familiar with. IMO it's far more powerful and effective than mindfulness or any other activities that involve the observation of thoughts. Why question thoughts or think about thoughts when there's a way to leave thoughts behind? This is much like learning to speed read; attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct perception and non-conceptual understanding. 2. Focus upon whatever's happening using the same general approach. We might call this AL-T (attending life minus thought). Whether one is washing the dishes, going to the store, pumping gas, or pursuing work-related projects, attention is placed upon the task at hand, and self-referential thoughts and other extraneous thoughts are only used as dharma bell reminders to shift attention back to whatever's happening. This is in line with the Nike commercial's admonition to "Just do it!." Regardless of whether one is walking in a park or driving a car while looking at the world without thinking about what's seen (ATA-T), or one is fully engaged with whatever's happening (AL-T), one's orientation becomes here and now and non-conceptual. One relies upon the body's innate intelligence rather than imagination as the dominant mode for interacting with the world. The effect of living life in this manner is the bypassing of intellectual self-referential reflectivity and becoming one-with whatever's happening. I've talked to many posters on this forum using the message function, and many of us reached a point in our search for truth where we realized that there was nothing we could do to speed up realization other than what we were already doing. In my case I became intuitively certain that ATA-T would sooner or later result in understanding, and if it didn't, then there was nothing I could do about it. At that time I was already doing AL-T a great deal of the time, but I hadn't yet distinguished that as an equally important factor. The advantage to both ATA-T and AL-T is that these activities are focused upon everyday life, and can be pursued continually. The ultimate goal is to attain psychological unity with "what is" and freedom from the mind. I'm familiar with dozens of different meditative methodologies, but I don't know anything that will lead to realizations and understanding as fast as these two activities. The essence of these two admonitions is summed up most succinctly in Psalms 46:10: "Be still and know." What does this mean? It means, "If thinking ceases, there's no limit to what can be discovered." Everything seekers are searching for is already here and now. Thoughts are the only things that obscure it.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 15, 2019 11:58:14 GMT -5
Interesting. What comes to mind is that these are basically "the obverse" of self-inquiry, where what is being inquired into is, instead of the "self," the "actual" or "what's happening" -- though of course it comes right back down to the same thing in the end.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2019 12:38:54 GMT -5
Interesting. What comes to mind is that these are basically "the obverse" of self-inquiry, where what is being inquired into is, instead of the "self," the "actual" or "what's happening" -- though of course it comes right back down to the same thing in the end. Yes, and I was thinking about that today after posting this. I've heard Zen Masters say that there's no point in pursuing the "Who am I?" inquiry unless one is willing to devote at least ten years to that koan. I assume they mean that one must be extremely serious about the issue in order to tackle it. Zen has dozens of koans that can be resolved fairly quickly and easily with a modest amount of meditation, but "Who am I, Really?" is not one of those. Pursuing ATA-T and AL-T, as you suggest, leads to the same place and the same sorts of realizations as other pathways, but this approach shifts the focus somewhat and can be deeply immersive--in the sense that it immediately attacks the problem of intellectual reflection as a dominant way of life. People can still pursue koans if they wish, but mental silence, alone, is probably the most highly correlated activity with realizations. If nothing else, these activities are very effective at helping people get "out of their heads."
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 15, 2019 14:45:26 GMT -5
Interesting. What comes to mind is that these are basically "the obverse" of self-inquiry, where what is being inquired into is, instead of the "self," the "actual" or "what's happening" -- though of course it comes right back down to the same thing in the end. This reminds me of the great Yogi, Berra. I read a book once with him explaining some of his Yogi-isms. One example: "When you come to a fork in the road, take it". He was giving directions to his house. He lived on a circle road, so you could take either fork and get to his house. I agree, self-inquiry (Which Beau Lotto seems to have come to understand, see quote below) and ATA-T (and AL-T) lead to the same ~place~. (And if you get there via self-inquiry, you then learn why ATA-T & AL-T are/would have been quicker). (Another favorite of his lines, which you can figure out, talking about a popular restaurant; That place is always so crowded nobody goes there anymore).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 14:48:44 GMT -5
I recently wrote an article about this issue, and thought I'd summarize and explain the advice included in the article. The two main admonitions suggested were: 1. Pursue ATA-T (attend the actual minus thought), which I've written about in the past, and which most posters here are familiar with. This is the fastest way to attain some mental space and mental silence that I'm familiar with. IMO it's far more powerful and effective than mindfulness or any other activities that involve the observation of thoughts. Why question thoughts or think about thoughts when there's a way to leave thoughts behind? This is much like learning to speed read; attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct perception and non-conceptual understanding. 2. Focus upon whatever's happening using the same general approach. We might call this AL-T (attending life minus thought). Whether one is washing the dishes, going to the store, pumping gas, or pursuing work-related projects, attention is placed upon the task at hand, and self-referential thoughts and other extraneous thoughts are only used as dharma bell reminders to shift attention back to whatever's happening. This is in line with the Nike commercial's admonition to "Just do it!." Regardless of whether one is walking in a park or driving a car while looking at the world without thinking about what's seen (ATA-T), or one is fully engaged with whatever's happening (AL-T), one's orientation becomes here and now and non-conceptual. One relies upon the body's innate intelligence rather than imagination as the dominant mode for interacting with the world. The effect of living life in this manner is the bypassing of intellectual self-referential reflectivity and becoming one-with whatever's happening. I've talked to many posters on this forum using the message function, and many of us reached a point in our search for truth where we realized that there was nothing we could do to speed up realization other than what we were already doing. In my case I became intuitively certain that ATA-T would sooner or later result in understanding, and if it didn't, then there was nothing I could do about it. At that time I was already doing AL-T a great deal of the time, but I hadn't yet distinguished that as an equally important factor. The advantage to both ATA-T and AL-T is that these activities are focused upon everyday life, and can be pursued continually. The ultimate goal is to attain psychological unity with "what is" and freedom from the mind. I'm familiar with dozens of different meditative methodologies, but I don't know anything that will lead to realizations and understanding as fast as these two activities. The essence of these two admonitions is summed up most succinctly in Psalms 46:10: "Be still and know." What does this mean? It means, "If thinking ceases, there's no limit to what can be discovered." Everything seekers are searching for is already here and now. Thoughts are the only things that obscure it. All of this seems more to me these days like a contrived attempt to 'ignite interest' in quietude, an attempt to cultivate interest (that is not actually, presently there) towards the cessation of thinking. Likely no real surprise in my saying this, but these days I'm really on board with E's assertion that if there truly is interest in the cessation of though, thought will simply cease. (split mind convo comes to mind again...I can almost hear the cheers erupting in the distance )
Planning out and then practicing different ways of either selectively focusing mind or stopping mind/thought really does seem to be overlooking the importance of the presence or absence of actual sincerity/interest, and the fact that ultimately, the person has no control over whether that is there or not.
Being interested in becoming interested in quietude of mind is not the same thing as an actual interest in quietude of mind.
If a moment of quietude is really and truly where the interest lies, quietude is what will be.
That said, people love the idea that there is something they can and should do to get to a better place.
All this said, if one 'wants' to practice in this way, I'd never discourage him.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2019 16:30:24 GMT -5
I recently wrote an article about this issue, and thought I'd summarize and explain the advice included in the article. The two main admonitions suggested were: 1. Pursue ATA-T (attend the actual minus thought), which I've written about in the past, and which most posters here are familiar with. This is the fastest way to attain some mental space and mental silence that I'm familiar with. IMO it's far more powerful and effective than mindfulness or any other activities that involve the observation of thoughts. Why question thoughts or think about thoughts when there's a way to leave thoughts behind? This is much like learning to speed read; attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct perception and non-conceptual understanding. 2. Focus upon whatever's happening using the same general approach. We might call this AL-T (attending life minus thought). Whether one is washing the dishes, going to the store, pumping gas, or pursuing work-related projects, attention is placed upon the task at hand, and self-referential thoughts and other extraneous thoughts are only used as dharma bell reminders to shift attention back to whatever's happening. This is in line with the Nike commercial's admonition to "Just do it!." Regardless of whether one is walking in a park or driving a car while looking at the world without thinking about what's seen (ATA-T), or one is fully engaged with whatever's happening (AL-T), one's orientation becomes here and now and non-conceptual. One relies upon the body's innate intelligence rather than imagination as the dominant mode for interacting with the world. The effect of living life in this manner is the bypassing of intellectual self-referential reflectivity and becoming one-with whatever's happening. I've talked to many posters on this forum using the message function, and many of us reached a point in our search for truth where we realized that there was nothing we could do to speed up realization other than what we were already doing. In my case I became intuitively certain that ATA-T would sooner or later result in understanding, and if it didn't, then there was nothing I could do about it. At that time I was already doing AL-T a great deal of the time, but I hadn't yet distinguished that as an equally important factor. The advantage to both ATA-T and AL-T is that these activities are focused upon everyday life, and can be pursued continually. The ultimate goal is to attain psychological unity with "what is" and freedom from the mind. I'm familiar with dozens of different meditative methodologies, but I don't know anything that will lead to realizations and understanding as fast as these two activities. The essence of these two admonitions is summed up most succinctly in Psalms 46:10: "Be still and know." What does this mean? It means, "If thinking ceases, there's no limit to what can be discovered." Everything seekers are searching for is already here and now. Thoughts are the only things that obscure it. All of this seems more to me these days like a contrived attempt to 'ignite interest' in quietude, an attempt to cultivate interest (that is not actually, presently there) towards the cessation of thinking. Likely no real surprise in my saying this, but these days I'm really on board with E's assertion that if there truly is interest in the cessation of though, thought will simply cease. (split mind convo comes to mind again...I can almost hear the cheers erupting in the distance ) Planning out and then practicing different ways of either selectively focusing mind or stopping mind/thought really does seem to be overlooking the importance of the presence or absence of actual sincerity/interest, and the fact that ultimately, the person has no control over whether that is there or not.
Being interested in becoming interested in quietude of mind is not the same thing as an actual interest in quietude of mind.
If a moment of quietude is really and truly where the interest lies, quietude is what will be.
That said, people love the idea that there is something they can and should do to get to a better place.
All this said, if one 'wants' to practice in this way, I'd never discourage him.
AAMOF, the article was written for some very serious seekers, many of whom feel "stuck" because they've spent many years meditating, and don't feel like they're making progress. As many of us on this forum know, the idea that one is stuck, or not making progress, indicates that there's still a lot of self-referential thinking going on. Perhaps they haven't yet reached a point where they've realized that there's nothing more they can do other than what they're already doing. Or, they haven't been exposed to alternative approaches, such as the one I suggested, which will help them get out of the cycle of self-referential thinking that makes them think they're stuck. This has nothing to do with igniting someone's interest because the people I wrote this for have been strongly interested in ND and Self-realization for a long time (in many cases for decades).
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Post by laughter on Mar 15, 2019 17:05:41 GMT -5
I recently wrote an article about this issue, and thought I'd summarize and explain the advice included in the article. The two main admonitions suggested were: 1. Pursue ATA-T (attend the actual minus thought), which I've written about in the past, and which most posters here are familiar with. This is the fastest way to attain some mental space and mental silence that I'm familiar with. IMO it's far more powerful and effective than mindfulness or any other activities that involve the observation of thoughts. Why question thoughts or think about thoughts when there's a way to leave thoughts behind? This is much like learning to speed read; attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct perception and non-conceptual understanding. 2. Focus upon whatever's happening using the same general approach. We might call this AL-T (attending life minus thought). Whether one is washing the dishes, going to the store, pumping gas, or pursuing work-related projects, attention is placed upon the task at hand, and self-referential thoughts and other extraneous thoughts are only used as dharma bell reminders to shift attention back to whatever's happening. This is in line with the Nike commercial's admonition to "Just do it!." Regardless of whether one is walking in a park or driving a car while looking at the world without thinking about what's seen (ATA-T), or one is fully engaged with whatever's happening (AL-T), one's orientation becomes here and now and non-conceptual. One relies upon the body's innate intelligence rather than imagination as the dominant mode for interacting with the world. The effect of living life in this manner is the bypassing of intellectual self-referential reflectivity and becoming one-with whatever's happening. I've talked to many posters on this forum using the message function, and many of us reached a point in our search for truth where we realized that there was nothing we could do to speed up realization other than what we were already doing. In my case I became intuitively certain that ATA-T would sooner or later result in understanding, and if it didn't, then there was nothing I could do about it. At that time I was already doing AL-T a great deal of the time, but I hadn't yet distinguished that as an equally important factor. The advantage to both ATA-T and AL-T is that these activities are focused upon everyday life, and can be pursued continually. The ultimate goal is to attain psychological unity with "what is" and freedom from the mind. I'm familiar with dozens of different meditative methodologies, but I don't know anything that will lead to realizations and understanding as fast as these two activities. The essence of these two admonitions is summed up most succinctly in Psalms 46:10: "Be still and know." What does this mean? It means, "If thinking ceases, there's no limit to what can be discovered." Everything seekers are searching for is already here and now. Thoughts are the only things that obscure it. Life goes on after all the existential questions are gone, and no question about the nature of the mind if it ever gets noisy. And sometimes, these sorts of pointers are a nice reminder -- when they happen to occur to me -- regardless of how big a picture I think I might have.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 18:15:29 GMT -5
All of this seems more to me these days like a contrived attempt to 'ignite interest' in quietude, an attempt to cultivate interest (that is not actually, presently there) towards the cessation of thinking. Likely no real surprise in my saying this, but these days I'm really on board with E's assertion that if there truly is interest in the cessation of though, thought will simply cease. (split mind convo comes to mind again...I can almost hear the cheers erupting in the distance ) Planning out and then practicing different ways of either selectively focusing mind or stopping mind/thought really does seem to be overlooking the importance of the presence or absence of actual sincerity/interest, and the fact that ultimately, the person has no control over whether that is there or not.
Being interested in becoming interested in quietude of mind is not the same thing as an actual interest in quietude of mind.
If a moment of quietude is really and truly where the interest lies, quietude is what will be.
That said, people love the idea that there is something they can and should do to get to a better place.
All this said, if one 'wants' to practice in this way, I'd never discourage him.
AAMOF, the article was written for some very serious seekers, many of whom feel "stuck" because they've spent many years meditating, and don't feel like they're making progress. As many of us on this forum know, the idea that one is stuck, or not making progress, indicates that there's still a lot of self-referential thinking going on. Perhaps they haven't yet reached a point where they've realized that there's nothing more they can do other than what they're already doing. Or, they haven't been exposed to alternative approaches, such as the one I suggested, which will help them get out of the cycle of self-referential thinking that makes them think they're stuck. This has nothing to do with igniting someone's interest because the people I wrote this for have been strongly interested in ND and Self-realization for a long time (in many cases for decades). I say there are other things they are actually far more interested in, otherwise, there would not be abidance in mind, otherwise thought/minding would not be obscuring the Truth that lies closer than the nose on their face.
Indeed, those who are intently seeking and have been for decades, may experience themselves to be consumed by the idea of finding the elusive Truth they seek, but mind has obviously been 'captured and captivated.' That does not happen absent strong, all encompassing 'interest' in that which captures/captivates.
To see clearly, one has to lose interest in that which is obscuring the clarity, and that is not a 'doing' of the person.
Again though, if one is interested in practice in that sense, I'd never tell them to stop...and I'd say the same about one who is interested in recommending such a practice to others. It's just important to see that practice does not 'cause,' SR. When it appears to 'lead to' SR, what's really happened there is that one got less interested in practicing, seeking, doing things to reach some erroneous idea of attainment, and became more interested in seeing what's actually happening here.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2019 20:15:13 GMT -5
AAMOF, the article was written for some very serious seekers, many of whom feel "stuck" because they've spent many years meditating, and don't feel like they're making progress. As many of us on this forum know, the idea that one is stuck, or not making progress, indicates that there's still a lot of self-referential thinking going on. Perhaps they haven't yet reached a point where they've realized that there's nothing more they can do other than what they're already doing. Or, they haven't been exposed to alternative approaches, such as the one I suggested, which will help them get out of the cycle of self-referential thinking that makes them think they're stuck. This has nothing to do with igniting someone's interest because the people I wrote this for have been strongly interested in ND and Self-realization for a long time (in many cases for decades). I say there are other things they are actually far more interested in, otherwise, there would not be abidance in mind, otherwise thought/minding would not be obscuring the Truth that lies closer than the nose on their face.
Indeed, those who are intently seeking and have been for decades, may experience themselves to be consumed by the idea of finding the elusive Truth they seek, but mind has obviously been 'captured and captivated.' That does not happen absent strong, all encompassing 'interest' in that which captures/captivates.
To see clearly, one has to lose interest in that which is obscuring the clarity, and that is not a 'doing' of the person.
Again though, if one is interested in practice in that sense, I'd never tell them to stop...and I'd say the same about one who is interested in recommending such a practice to others. It's just important to see that practice does not 'cause,' SR. When it appears to 'lead to' SR, what's really happened there is that one got less interested in practicing, seeking, doing things to reach some erroneous idea of attainment, and became more interested in seeing what's actually happening here.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 15, 2019 21:02:21 GMT -5
Interesting. What comes to mind is that these are basically "the obverse" of self-inquiry, where what is being inquired into is, instead of the "self," the "actual" or "what's happening" -- though of course it comes right back down to the same thing in the end. Yes, and I was thinking about that today after posting this. I've heard Zen Masters say that there's no point in pursuing the "Who am I?" inquiry unless one is willing to devote at least ten years to that koan. I assume they mean that one must be extremely serious about the issue in order to tackle it. Zen has dozens of koans that can be resolved fairly quickly and easily with a modest amount of meditation, but "Who am I, Really?" is not one of those. Pursuing ATA-T and AL-T, as you suggest, leads to the same place and the same sorts of realizations as other pathways, but this approach shifts the focus somewhat and can be deeply immersive--in the sense that it immediately attacks the problem of intellectual reflection as a dominant way of life. People can still pursue koans if they wish, but mental silence, alone, is probably the most highly correlated activity with realizations. If nothing else, these activities are very effective at helping people get "out of their heads." Who Am I is not a koan. That's not at all what Ramana Maharshi and others taught. Who am I is to be still by suspending thought. It is the most direct path to awakening.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 15, 2019 21:09:03 GMT -5
Ramana Maharshi said in Nan Yar (Who Am I)
"When other thoughts arise, one should not pursue them, but should inquire ‘To whom do they arise?’ It does not matter how many thoughts arise. As each thought arises, one should inquire with diligence, ‘To whom has this thought arisen?’. The answer that would emerge would be ‘To me’. Thereupon if one inquires ‘Who am I?’, the mind will go back to its source; and the thought that arose will become quiescent. With repeated practice in this manner, the mind will develop the skill to stay in its source."
Unfortunately this is often misunderstood. There are many who think the question "Who am I" should be continually repeated. Of course Ramana never meant it that way. He wasn't suggesting this question should be articulated in the mind as each thought arises and it's not meant to be some kind of riddle or koan that has to be solved. He was trying to convey a way of locating the silence from which thoughts arise. If you actually ask the question, Who am I, there is no immediate answer. You may go on to answer it by saying my name is so and so etc, but immediately after asking the question there is just a space, silence. The question makes the mind momentarily stop thinking as it tries to make sense of this question. Given time it will revert back to the "story" but before it does there exists the opportunity to inquire into that gap precipitated by this unanswerable question. To go back to the souce. Once that sense of locating what is just awareness is established, the question, Who am I, becomes redundant. If you use a map to find a place you won't need the map again when you visit it the next time. You know where it is.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 15, 2019 21:35:58 GMT -5
The question makes the mind momentarily stop thinking as it tries to make sense of this question. Given time it will revert back to the "story" but before it does there exists the opportunity to inquire into that gap precipitated by this unanswerable question. To go back to the souce. Once that sense of locating what is just awareness is established, the question, Who am I, becomes redundant. If you use a map to find a place you won't need the map again when you visit it the next time. You know where it is. The Self is not a place to be located or visited, however. It only seems like that temporarily. You are the Self. Realizing that fact is very much like understanding a koan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 21:44:09 GMT -5
I say there are other things they are actually far more interested in, otherwise, there would not be abidance in mind, otherwise thought/minding would not be obscuring the Truth that lies closer than the nose on their face.
Indeed, those who are intently seeking and have been for decades, may experience themselves to be consumed by the idea of finding the elusive Truth they seek, but mind has obviously been 'captured and captivated.' That does not happen absent strong, all encompassing 'interest' in that which captures/captivates.
To see clearly, one has to lose interest in that which is obscuring the clarity, and that is not a 'doing' of the person.
Again though, if one is interested in practice in that sense, I'd never tell them to stop...and I'd say the same about one who is interested in recommending such a practice to others. It's just important to see that practice does not 'cause,' SR. When it appears to 'lead to' SR, what's really happened there is that one got less interested in practicing, seeking, doing things to reach some erroneous idea of attainment, and became more interested in seeing what's actually happening here.
I'm not picking up what you're alluding to. Care to share?
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 15, 2019 21:47:55 GMT -5
The question makes the mind momentarily stop thinking as it tries to make sense of this question. Given time it will revert back to the "story" but before it does there exists the opportunity to inquire into that gap precipitated by this unanswerable question. To go back to the souce. Once that sense of locating what is just awareness is established, the question, Who am I, becomes redundant. If you use a map to find a place you won't need the map again when you visit it the next time. You know where it is. The Self is not a place to be located or visited, however. It only seems like that temporarily. You are the Self. Realizing that fact is very much like understanding a koan. I didn't say the Self was a place to be located, I was talking about awareness, or do you think they are the same thing? Koans involve the mind. Self inquiry is to transcend mind and abide in non-dual awareness. Your conceptualizing of the topic won't help.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 15, 2019 21:55:32 GMT -5
The Self is not a place to be located or visited, however. It only seems like that temporarily. You are the Self. Realizing that fact is very much like understanding a koan. I didn't say the Self was a place to be located, I was talking about awareness, or do you think they are the same thing? Koans involve the mind. Self inquiry is to transcend mind and abide in non-dual awareness. Your conceptualizing of the topic won't help. You said that the Who am I question becomes "redundant" once you realize how to locate awareness. That implies that that kind of awareness is the answer to that question. If you don't consider awareness the Self, then the Who am I question has not been answered or understood when awareness is "located," whatever that means, and it is not redundant.
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