Hello!

[catherine]

Thank you both so much! Unfortunately for me, I think I am especially engrossed in the mind, which in the past put me into deep depression. I did not even know then that what I felt was caused by my own negative mind chatter. Now, I know where it comes from, and with a daily meditation practice, the mind chatter has lessened considerably. But I am AMAZED by the fact that it is still almost impossible to look at something or someone without having the mind make comments, judgments,etc. I notice that when I slack off with my meditation, the old negative patterns regain strength. So I really value the effect of meditation. But I realize now that it is not enough, and I love your explanation, Stardustpilgrim. I need to be present more. You are right, there is another way to live, and I am REALLY tired of the old way! I guess you need to reach a point when you say enough. This is not how I want to live any more. I was reflecting on the way little babies try to prop themselves up day and night, day and night, relentlessly, until they reach the goal. Awareness has to be a practice that takes place as often as possible. We just have to be more aware, more often... I have a teacher who tells me to observe my behavior at all times, and to think "interesting".

So good to be in this group. Thank you, Laughter, for your kind and helpful messages.

Catherine

[laughter]

Apr 5, 2018 9:52:49 GMT -5 catherine said:

Thank you both so much! Unfortunately for me, I think I am especially engrossed in the mind, which in the past put me into deep depression. I did not even know then that what I felt was caused by my own negative mind chatter. Now, I know where it comes from, and with a daily meditation practice, the mind chatter has lessened considerably. But I am AMAZED by the fact that it is still almost impossible to look at something or someone without having the mind make comments, judgments,etc. I notice that when I slack off with my meditation, the old negative patterns regain strength. So I really value the effect of meditation. But I realize now that it is not enough, and I love your explanation, Stardustpilgrim. I need to be present more. You are right, there is another way to live, and I am REALLY tired of the old way! I guess you need to reach a point when you say enough. This is not how I want to live any more. I was reflecting on the way little babies try to prop themselves up day and night, day and night, relentlessly, until they reach the goal. Awareness has to be a practice that takes place as often as possible. We just have to be more aware, more often... I have a teacher who tells me to observe my behavior at all times, and to think "interesting".

So good to be in this group. Thank you, Laughter, for your kind and helpful messages.

Catherine

Do you do anything like a sport or some sort of crafting where sometimes you get so engrossed in what you're doing that you lose track of time? Another instance this can happen is when you're working. The reason I ask is that it's really quite possible to bring the mind of meditation out into the waking, walking, eyes-open world.

The sort of practice you suggest can be very powerful. Mine was based on a Zen Master's prescription to "arouse the mind without resting it on anything". That's what I was referring to in that poem with the line, "every instant is an opportunity".

But there is a potential downside to these practices. How many people are there in your mind? Witnessing gives you distance between the content of your mind and a clear sense of awareness uncluttered by that content. But, what is it that is witnessing?

Are you familiar with Ramana Maharshi?

I'd say the bottom line is that these practices are more a means to an end rather than a potential way of life.

[stardustpilgrim]

Apr 5, 2018 14:02:07 GMT -5 laughter said:

Apr 5, 2018 9:52:49 GMT -5 catherine said:

Thank you both so much! Unfortunately for me, I think I am especially engrossed in the mind, which in the past put me into deep depression. I did not even know then that what I felt was caused by my own negative mind chatter. Now, I know where it comes from, and with a daily meditation practice, the mind chatter has lessened considerably. But I am AMAZED by the fact that it is still almost impossible to look at something or someone without having the mind make comments, judgments,etc. I notice that when I slack off with my meditation, the old negative patterns regain strength. So I really value the effect of meditation. But I realize now that it is not enough, and I love your explanation, Stardustpilgrim. I need to be present more. You are right, there is another way to live, and I am REALLY tired of the old way! I guess you need to reach a point when you say enough. This is not how I want to live any more. I was reflecting on the way little babies try to prop themselves up day and night, day and night, relentlessly, until they reach the goal. Awareness has to be a practice that takes place as often as possible. We just have to be more aware, more often... I have a teacher who tells me to observe my behavior at all times, and to think "interesting".

So good to be in this group. Thank you, Laughter, for your kind and helpful messages.

Catherine

Do you do anything like a sport or some sort of crafting where sometimes you get so engrossed in what you're doing that you lose track of time? Another instance this can happen is when you're working. The reason I ask is that it's really quite possible to bring the mind of meditation out into the waking, walking, eyes-open world.

The sort of practice you suggest can be very powerful. Mine was based on a Zen Master's prescription to "arouse the mind without resting it on anything". That's what I was referring to in that poem with the line, "every instant is an opportunity".

But there is a potential downside to these practices. How many people are there in your mind? Witnessing gives you distance between the content of your mind and a clear sense of awareness uncluttered by that content. But, what is it that is witnessing?

Are you familiar with Ramana Maharshi?

I'd say the bottom line is that these practices are more a means to an end rather than a potential way of life.

Thanks Catherine. Laughter's Zen Master's prescription is the very essence of the living through the original clean white paper. Just to add, that's our default setting when born, but this shift occurs early on and the sense of self becomes the default setting, "I"/me/mine/ego, the idle mind invariably ~goes there~. But it is possible to get back to awareness/attention/arousing-the-mind as the default setting.

I would say you are fortunate to have such a teacher.

[catherine]

Hi,

Sorry for the delay... Thank you both again. Yes, I am familiar with Ramana Maharshi. Thanks for your answers!
The practice of observing my reactions to things, and saying inwardly "interesting" has been very helpful in seeing a lot of patterns. This is just the beginning. Unlearning patterns that have been followed mindlessly for decades is not that easy, is it? I guess becoming aware that they even exist is a first step... Meditation seems to bring one back to the present, and to considerably lessen the mind-chatter. What authors, teachers, practices would you recommend to go back again and again to the blank slate?

[stardustpilgrim]

Apr 12, 2018 14:51:25 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi,

Sorry for the delay... Thank you both again. Yes, I am familiar with Ramana Maharshi. Thanks for your answers!
The practice of observing my reactions to things, and saying inwardly "interesting" has been very helpful in seeing a lot of patterns. This is just the beginning. Unlearning patterns that have been followed mindlessly for decades is not that easy, is it? I guess becoming aware that they even exist is a first step... Meditation seems to bring one back to the present, and to considerably lessen the mind-chatter. What authors, teachers, practices would you recommend to go back again and again to the blank slate?

Not that easy, correct.

Laughter has already mentioned The Power of Now by Tolle, good recommendation.

zendancer here on ST's came to a kind of practice he calls ATA-T (Attend The Actual minus Thought). It is a very good "practice". It's simple. It's virtually the same from my tradition what's called preparatory work. It's sensing, noticing, using any of the five senses. Briefly, one can notice material objects, the shapes of objects, colors; one can notice sounds.

One can also sense the body, especially tension in the body. Most of us almost invariably always have some tension in the face, notice if you do. You can then relax the tension. Come back to it in a few minutes or even seconds and the tension will be back. You can also cover the whole body noticing tension.

There is also a preparatory exercise called the 60 point sensing exercise. But simply, begin with the face (without giving the 60 specific points), just start with the right side of the head, sense the right side of the head, move down to the right neck (sensing), right shoulder, down the right arm, hand, fingers, right upper body, stomach area, right hip, knee (sensing each area before you move onward), calf, ankle, foot, toes, move to the left foot and go back up the left side of the body, end with the left side of the face. Simple.

Do it when and if you wish to (the same with everything else herein).

After noticing, using the senses, more to try, it's easier to begin with the body (easier than trying to observe thoughts or feelings, which can come later, after observing actions). If you wish to here are some other things one can observe: Your facial expression, tone of voice (it's possible to hear your voice, the voice you hear if you record yourself, listen, and invariably say, do I really sound like that?), gestures, movements of the large muscles, your posture.

Now, a beginning problem is forgetting to do these. So you can make reminders to practice. One good way is to leave sticky notes around, on your mirror, refrigerator, kitchen counter top, at the front door, any door. (When I was a kid my parents taught me to tie a piece of string around my finger as a reminder). This may work for a while, but there is a psychological/sensory phenomenon called habituation, your mind will eventually filter out/ignore your notes, they will cease to be a reminder. So, if you wish to practice you will have to invent new reminders.

A mantra is actually a reminder. The purpose of the "sound" is not to merely repeat the sound, the purpose is to have a constant reminder to work with attention. What's important is the ~focus~, not (hearing) the sound itself.

One more thing, you are absolutely correct about coming to the present moment, not easy. The mind, more specifically the psychological self, invariably lives in the past through memory or the future through imagination. You could say that's its ~job description~, to ~keep one out of the present moment~. So the psychological self, thinking and feeling, continually drags us out of the present moment. ....Something (to explore/consider), many here on ST's have discovered that who we normally consider ourselves to be, this ~psychological self~, does not, cannot, exist in the present moment, now. Many here and elsewhere have expressed this in different ways, different words. When you come to experience it, no words are necessary, no words can convey it. .....I will introduce you a little to ZD (ATST seeing you read his book), one of his favorite expressions of communication is ________.

[laughter]

Apr 12, 2018 14:51:25 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi,

Sorry for the delay... Thank you both again. Yes, I am familiar with Ramana Maharshi. Thanks for your answers!
The practice of observing my reactions to things, and saying inwardly "interesting" has been very helpful in seeing a lot of patterns. This is just the beginning. Unlearning patterns that have been followed mindlessly for decades is not that easy, is it? I guess becoming aware that they even exist is a first step... Meditation seems to bring one back to the present, and to considerably lessen the mind-chatter. What authors, teachers, practices would you recommend to go back again and again to the blank slate?

Who is it that finds this process difficult?

[catherine]

Hi, Dear Laughter and Stardustpilgrim,

Thank you again for your insights! It is funny (Stardustpilgrim) that you should mention the exercise of sensing the body, because I started a different kind of meditation that does that at the beginning. I find it very helpful. As I was sensing the physical sensations, I noticed I could feel the prana inside in different parts of the body, and hear internal sounds. It was very useful to focus on these during meditation. Just focusing on a sensation or a sound.

Laughter, I like your question! Who is it that finds this process difficult? I don't know. I keep asking: who am I? I am not this body, I am not this mind... Neti, neti... Do you get to the "Self" by eliminating what the "Self" is not? Is it a process of elimination, or stripping of what it is not?


Catherine

[stardustpilgrim]

Apr 19, 2018 18:26:17 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi, Dear Laughter and Stardustpilgrim,

Thank you again for your insights! It is funny (Stardustpilgrim) that you should mention the exercise of sensing the body, because I started a different kind of meditation that does that at the beginning. I find it very helpful. As I was sensing the physical sensations, I noticed I could feel the prana inside in different parts of the body, and hear internal sounds. It was very useful to focus on these during meditation. Just focusing on a sensation or a sound.

Laughter, I like your question! Who is it that finds this process difficult? I don't know. I keep asking: who am I? I am not this body, I am not this mind... Neti, neti... Do you get to the "Self" by eliminating what the "Self" is not? Is it a process of elimination, or stripping of what it is not?


Catherine

Yes, understand about prana. (We've had discussions about the sound here before. I grew up in the country, it sounds like crickets to me. ....No discussions on prana).

Good to hear from you...

[laughter]

Apr 19, 2018 18:26:17 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi, Dear Laughter and Stardustpilgrim,

Thank you again for your insights! It is funny (Stardustpilgrim) that you should mention the exercise of sensing the body, because I started a different kind of meditation that does that at the beginning. I find it very helpful. As I was sensing the physical sensations, I noticed I could feel the prana inside in different parts of the body, and hear internal sounds. It was very useful to focus on these during meditation. Just focusing on a sensation or a sound.

Laughter, I like your question! Who is it that finds this process difficult? I don't know. I keep asking: who am I? I am not this body, I am not this mind... Neti, neti... Do you get to the "Self" by eliminating what the "Self" is not? Is it a process of elimination, or stripping of what it is not?


Catherine

Yes, that's seeing the false as false. The truth is ineffable, and can dawn with a brilliance that can shock and completely rearrange us. It's also as simple and unassuming as the subtle silence between two thoughts.

[etolle]

Apr 4, 2018 15:45:14 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Apr 4, 2018 12:50:45 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi,

Sorry, got busy! It is so interesting to see everybody's path. I feel so caught up in the mind. Do not know how to get out of it. Any suggestions? Practices?

All the best!

Catherine

Hey Catherine...There is mind and then there is conditioned mind. Mind has many names, the names are not important, to discover original mind is what's important. Why call it original mind? Up above this post is an add, an add for Gerber Life Insurance Co. with the Gerber baby picture on it. Many animals are born with instinctive functions, and just start living their life upon birth. But a human baby is not born with a great deal of instinctive functions, so has to learn. But what is a baby born with? Attention (and awareness). So this is your original mind. So what is the conditioned mind? That's pretty easy, it's what you refer to by "caught up in the mind". So how does conditioned mind arise? The baby explores the world with its attention, that's original mind. And then everything it explores gets stored in the neural structure of the brain, through associations. See original mind as a clean white sheet of paper. As the baby encounters the world and that information is stored in the brain, see that data as a mark on the clean white paper (you can actually do it, use some colored pens, or just make an image in your mind). The crisscrossing of pen marks is a good example of the associative nature of the neural structure. Thousands of marks will enter the babies paper every day. As the days add up to years, the clean white paper can hardly be seen, but it's still there.

So at about the age of six there is very little white showing. What does this mean in our analogy? It means that now all incoming information falls on the pen marks, the network of associations in the brain, and not on the clean white paper. What does this mean? It means your attention is captured by stored information, that is, now, everything the young child encounters, activates the information already stored, the the child sees life through its own store of information and interprets life not as it is, but according to the stored information. That's what conditioning is. And what do we call that massive stored information? We call it self, Mary or John or Calvin or Ruth. The stored information constitutes what we consider self to be.

So the youth, the teenager, the young adult, the adult and the middle aged, do not really encounter life like the baby. And all this stored information operates all-by-itself, encountering life makes things pop right up out of the brain, minute by minute, daily, this becomes our life. How do we refer to it? "I feel so caught up in my mind". That's a very good way to put it, ~you~ actually are caught up in your mind. Original mind is caught and captured by the conditioned mind. Your attention is continually forced into a rut, the rut called the conditioned mind. Your attention, ~you~, are in a very real sense held prisoner, by the conditioned mind. From your post, this seems very clear to you.

Now we come to "Do not know how to get out of it. Any suggestions"?

The clean white sheet of paper is still there underneath all the marks. What to do? You can access the clean white paper. We generally call it meditation. All forms of meditation are attempts to access the clean white paper. Watching the breath is a good beginning form of meditation. So what happens? You watch the breath for two seconds, and then a thought jumps up, the thought tries to take back your attention, that's virtually the job description of ego (our conditioning). So that's what we experience, all day long. Meditation is a way to try to ~take back~ our original mind (in Buddhism also called no-mind, the no-mind is the clean white paper).

But then also, one can take this into daily life. You can find moments where it's a little easier to do. Driving, just bring your attention to the driving, watching traffic. Standing in any line, just bring your attention to now. Getting a drink of water at the water fountain, just "Be, Here, Now". Your conditioned mind is going to continually try to recapture your attention. But now it's up to you. Just explore this. It can go deeper and deeper. Just keep exploring, if you wish to. Maybe you come to value the *clean white paper*, more than the conditioned ruts. Eventually you can find the clean white paper, while in the midst of the marks.

Maybe eventually you come to reevaluate what you consider self to be. But maybe this takes a lot of exploration, but sometimes not. But just remember, maybe self (conditioned self) will not be put out of its job so easily.

For most people life is just one darn thing after another, and then they die. There is another way to live.

sdp,i always wanted to be able to explain the conditioned mind to my fellow aa ers and now I can thanks to you..if I may ask,where did you learn this?...

[stardustpilgrim]

Feb 20, 2019 11:29:37 GMT -5 etolle said:

Apr 4, 2018 15:45:14 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Hey Catherine...There is mind and then there is conditioned mind. Mind has many names, the names are not important, to discover original mind is what's important. Why call it original mind? Up above this post is an add, an add for Gerber Life Insurance Co. with the Gerber baby picture on it. Many animals are born with instinctive functions, and just start living their life upon birth. But a human baby is not born with a great deal of instinctive functions, so has to learn. But what is a baby born with? Attention (and awareness). So this is your original mind. So what is the conditioned mind? That's pretty easy, it's what you refer to by "caught up in the mind". So how does conditioned mind arise? The baby explores the world with its attention, that's original mind. And then everything it explores gets stored in the neural structure of the brain, through associations. See original mind as a clean white sheet of paper. As the baby encounters the world and that information is stored in the brain, see that data as a mark on the clean white paper (you can actually do it, use some colored pens, or just make an image in your mind). The crisscrossing of pen marks is a good example of the associative nature of the neural structure. Thousands of marks will enter the babies paper every day. As the days add up to years, the clean white paper can hardly be seen, but it's still there.

So at about the age of six there is very little white showing. What does this mean in our analogy? It means that now all incoming information falls on the pen marks, the network of associations in the brain, and not on the clean white paper. What does this mean? It means your attention is captured by stored information, that is, now, everything the young child encounters, activates the information already stored, the the child sees life through its own store of information and interprets life not as it is, but according to the stored information. That's what conditioning is. And what do we call that massive stored information? We call it self, Mary or John or Calvin or Ruth. The stored information constitutes what we consider self to be.

So the youth, the teenager, the young adult, the adult and the middle aged, do not really encounter life like the baby. And all this stored information operates all-by-itself, encountering life makes things pop right up out of the brain, minute by minute, daily, this becomes our life. How do we refer to it? "I feel so caught up in my mind". That's a very good way to put it, ~you~ actually are caught up in your mind. Original mind is caught and captured by the conditioned mind. Your attention is continually forced into a rut, the rut called the conditioned mind. Your attention, ~you~, are in a very real sense held prisoner, by the conditioned mind. From your post, this seems very clear to you.

Now we come to "Do not know how to get out of it. Any suggestions"?

The clean white sheet of paper is still there underneath all the marks. What to do? You can access the clean white paper. We generally call it meditation. All forms of meditation are attempts to access the clean white paper. Watching the breath is a good beginning form of meditation. So what happens? You watch the breath for two seconds, and then a thought jumps up, the thought tries to take back your attention, that's virtually the job description of ego (our conditioning). So that's what we experience, all day long. Meditation is a way to try to ~take back~ our original mind (in Buddhism also called no-mind, the no-mind is the clean white paper).

But then also, one can take this into daily life. You can find moments where it's a little easier to do. Driving, just bring your attention to the driving, watching traffic. Standing in any line, just bring your attention to now. Getting a drink of water at the water fountain, just "Be, Here, Now". Your conditioned mind is going to continually try to recapture your attention. But now it's up to you. Just explore this. It can go deeper and deeper. Just keep exploring, if you wish to. Maybe you come to value the *clean white paper*, more than the conditioned ruts. Eventually you can find the clean white paper, while in the midst of the marks.

Maybe eventually you come to reevaluate what you consider self to be. But maybe this takes a lot of exploration, but sometimes not. But just remember, maybe self (conditioned self) will not be put out of its job so easily.

For most people life is just one darn thing after another, and then they die. There is another way to live.

sdp,i always wanted to be able to explain the conditioned mind to my fellow aa ers and now I can thanks to you..if I may ask,where did you learn this?...

(Sorry, there isn't a short answer to your question).

Thanks etolle...First, I was taught and learned an essential principle, whatever you learn theoretically, you have to find it in yourself. I will claim the clean white sheet of paper as analogy, but not the information it conveys. My spiritual search really began at 17. Probably at 18 I discovered J Krishnamurti, Think On These Things. For about six years JK was IT for me. So some of this comes from JK, I read a constant stream of his books. I thought I understood him perfectly, but he would usually end with: And then this understanding leads to action, and it never lead to action with me. Then about Feb. 1976 I read an advertisement for a book, Basic Self-Knowledge by Harry Benjamin. It said Harry Benjamin learned to do what JK talked about. Benjamin had read The Psychological Commentaries on the Teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky by Maurice Nicoll, so the book was about JK, Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. I ordered it, plus a second book. Before the books came I heard a talk on The Gurdjieff Method of self-study. The talk lead to further meetings, about 15 people gathered from the original talk. The first meeting I learned of the book In Search of the Miraculous by PD Ouspensky. I got it and read it in full before the next meeting the following week.

From the meetings I learned some things about attention and awareness, and finding what's described, in oneself. Some things I learned, in theory and otherwise, I've never seen written anywhere. And so the post about conditioning came from 43 years of all that, and from understanding and personal experience. There are 5 volumes of Nicoll's Commentaries, a lot of what I wrote and my understanding comes from Nicoll, I've read all (probably over 1200 pages) at least twice and some 3 & 4 & 5 times. (They are several pages long, I skip around. Early on I began dating when I read one to keep up with what I read. The title describes what they are).

Basically, in the beginning all you can see is your conditioning, and the conditioning of everyone you encounter. The conditioning is what we believe constitutes our self, we take what we eventually see to be merely conditioning, to be self. But most people never get this far, they take self for granted, self is just self. Most people here on ST's forums get (some at least theoretically) that true self is something else, in the analogy, again, the blank sheet of paper and what that indicates (to really see the conditioning, you have to BE the clean white sheet of paper. The conditioning thinks It can see, but It doesn't really). My conditioning just came to be just (f*c*ing) weary and tiresome and this was really the fuel for my search. ....So what I wrote is from "blood, sweat and tears"... But true self is always present, always available. (Most of anything serious I post comes-out-of all of the above, a single source).

Feel free to use as you wish, I would be honored....

[etolle]

Feb 20, 2019 17:30:33 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Feb 20, 2019 11:29:37 GMT -5 etolle said:

sdp,i always wanted to be able to explain the conditioned mind to my fellow aa ers and now I can thanks to you..if I may ask,where did you learn this?...

(Sorry, there isn't a short answer to your question).

Thanks etolle...First, I was taught and learned an essential principle, whatever you learn theoretically, you have to find it in yourself. I will claim the clean white sheet of paper as analogy, but not the information it conveys. My spiritual search really began at 17. Probably at 18 I discovered J Krishnamurti, Think On These Things. For about six years JK was IT for me. So some of this comes from JK, I read a constant stream of his books. I thought I understood him perfectly, but he would usually end with: And then this understanding leads to action, and it never lead to action with me. Then about Feb. 1976 I read an advertisement for a book, Basic Self-Knowledge by Harry Benjamin. It said Harry Benjamin learned to do what JK talked about. Benjamin had read The Psychological Commentaries on the Teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky by Maurice Nicoll, so the book was about JK, Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. I ordered it, plus a second book. Before the books came I heard a talk on The Gurdjieff Method of self-study. The talk lead to further meetings, about 15 people gathered from the original talk. The first meeting I learned of the book In Search of the Miraculous by PD Ouspensky. I got it and read it in full before the next meeting the following week.

From the meetings I learned some things about attention and awareness, and finding what's described, in oneself. Some things I learned, in theory and otherwise, I've never seen written anywhere. And so the post about conditioning came from 43 years of all that, and from understanding and personal experience. There are 5 volumes of Nicoll's Commentaries, a lot of what I wrote and my understanding comes from Nicoll, I've read all (probably over 1200 pages) at least twice and some 3 & 4 & 5 times. (They are several pages long, I skip around. Early on I began dating when I read one to keep up with what I read. The title describes what they are).

Basically, in the beginning all you can see is your conditioning, and the conditioning of everyone you encounter. The conditioning is what we believe constitutes our self, we take what we eventually see to be merely conditioning, to be self. But most people never get this far, they take self for granted, self is just self. Most people here on ST's forums get (some at least theoretically) that true self is something else, in the analogy, again, the blank sheet of paper and what that indicates (to really see the conditioning, you have to BE the clean white sheet of paper. The conditioning thinks It can see, but It doesn't really). My conditioning just came to be just (f*c*ing) weary and tiresome and this was really the fuel for my search. ....So what I wrote is from "blood, sweat and tears"... But true self is always present, always available. (Most of anything serious I post comes-out-of all of the above, a single source).

Feel free to use as you wish, I would be honored....

sdp,i really appreciate you takin the time to explain all that...have more to say later.

[IRUUR1]

Hi Catherine. Welcome.
My name is Daniel.
IRUUR1 is a moniker for what  constitutes my current state of enlightenment, such as it is. It's very vernacular. I just got to Spiritual Teachers today, and saw your post at the top. You are obviously a magnet for others as well. 
On the path question I would tell you that is is a question of questions. Once you realize that you do have the capacity to question and try the truth of wisdom, without regard to your own stake in a pre-determined outcome, other than to know the truth for yourself, you are on the path. Your guide is your motive. What is the highest motivation required to understand Creation. Imagine it and then be willing to act, even if it ends up sometimes being a mistake or seemingly hopelessly frustrating. If your goal is to understand the intrinsic value of Creation because you know you would not even be here if there was not a purpose, then know this. Creation takes care of it's own, one way or another. 
If you know that, or even if you want to know if that is true or just a bunch of BS, you are on the path. While on this path there are many who will tell you that theirs is the true path. Sometimes this will be true, even if only for a moment, sometimes for the rest of your life.  My suggestion for beginning a path, is any video, of almost any lecture by Alan Watts. There are many on YouTube. 
You can find a link to my writing from my first post to the Spiritual Teachers group called Wondering.
Thanks for being here.

[scarsellavl]

Mar 26, 2018 17:10:13 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi, everybody!

Just a little presentation. I am 48 years old, live in Arizona. Been a bit of a traveler. Was born in France, where I lived for 23 years, then moved to England. Spent 9 years there, and moved to the United States. I was brought up as a Catholic, and as far as I can remember, I was searching for something. Even as a young girl, I felt that there must be something more to life than meets the eye. I was lucky enough to come in contact with wonderful souls along the way that showed me things that I had not even known existed. My first encounter with the catholic priest of my little village was a defining moment. This man was always happy, even when he was suffering horribly with bone cancer. As a young girl, it really piqued my interest. Why was this man so different? Where did he find his joy and gratitude? Things have not progressed smoothly in my life. I am afraid I remained stuck in victim consciousness for decades, until the pain of being miserable and sorry for myself became unbearable. I then embarked on a spiritual journey, embracing meditation and a hinduism-based practice. Now, I am at a point where I am realizing how much brainwashing we all go through, and how much we complicate things. I am seeing clearly that the mind is the obstacle. I see it intellectually, but am not able (except for glimpses from time to time) to let go, and just be present. I am so glad to have found this discussion board, and cannot wait to discuss with you all. I read Zendancer's book (Pouring concrete...) and could not put it down. Looking forward to a wonderful fellowship, guidance, exchange with you all!

Catherine

[bluey]

Mar 26, 2018 17:10:13 GMT -5 catherine said:

Hi, everybody!

Just a little presentation. I am 48 years old, live in Arizona. Been a bit of a traveler. Was born in France, where I lived for 23 years, then moved to England. Spent 9 years there, and moved to the United States. I was brought up as a Catholic, and as far as I can remember, I was searching for something. Even as a young girl, I felt that there must be something more to life than meets the eye. I was lucky enough to come in contact with wonderful souls along the way that showed me things that I had not even known existed. My first encounter with the catholic priest of my little village was a defining moment. This man was always happy, even when he was suffering horribly with bone cancer. As a young girl, it really piqued my interest. Why was this man so different? Where did he find his joy and gratitude? Things have not progressed smoothly in my life. I am afraid I remained stuck in victim consciousness for decades, until the pain of being miserable and sorry for myself became unbearable. I then embarked on a spiritual journey, embracing meditation and a hinduism-based practice. Now, I am at a point where I am realizing how much brainwashing we all go through, and how much we complicate things. I am seeing clearly that the mind is the obstacle. I see it intellectually, but am not able (except for glimpses from time to time) to let go, and just be present. I am so glad to have found this discussion board, and cannot wait to discuss with you all. I read Zendancer's book (Pouring concrete...) and could not put it down. Looking forward to a wonderful fellowship, guidance, exchange with you all!

Catherine

The publication date for Pouring Concrete A Zen Path To The Kingdom Of God by Robert Harwood on Amazon, publication date is January 1st 2000.

The price in the U.K. on the sellers market is from 60 dollars (sold by honest bookstore😉) to 131 dollars ( someone wants to go out for a good meal)

Reviews are good.