Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 24, 2023 13:59:27 GMT -5
I'll correct and/or fill in the ChatGPT Swiss cheese holes.
ChatGPT: George Gurdjieff and non-duality have distinct perspectives on the nature of the person. While both explore the nature of reality and human existence, their approaches and beliefs differ in significant ways. Let's examine their views on the person:
George Gurdjieff:
George Gurdjieff was a spiritual teacher who developed the philosophy known as the Fourth Way. Gurdjieff didn't develop his teaching. He was clear he himself had teachers, and the teaching preexisted himself, even to thousands of years. According to Gurdjieff, the ordinary person is asleep, unaware of their true nature and living in a state of mechanicality. He believed that individuals possess multiple centers within themselves, such as the physical, emotional, and intellectual centers, which are typically disconnected and in conflict. Gurdjieff emphasized the importance of self-observation and self-remembering as means to awaken and integrate these centers. He also proposed that humans have the potential to develop a higher level of consciousness, which he referred to as "self-consciousness" or "objective consciousness." self-consciousness is AKA self-remembering, it's the 3rd state of consciousness, it's knowing one's self as one is. objective consciousness is the 4th state of consciousness, it's knowing the world as it exists in actuality.
Gurdjieff's perspective on the person involves a deep exploration of the human condition, the identification of mechanical patterns, and the quest for self-transformation. He advocated for a disciplined approach to self-development, incorporating practices such as meditation, self-observation, and conscious effort.
Non-duality:
Non-duality, often associated with spiritual traditions like Advaita Vedanta and Zen Buddhism, posits that there is ultimately no inherent separation between the individual and the rest of existence. It emphasizes the non-dual nature of reality, asserting that the distinction between self and the external world is illusory. Non-duality suggests that the sense of individuality or personal identity is a product of the mind and that the true essence of existence is undivided and unbounded.
From a non-dual perspective, the person is considered an expression of the universal consciousness or awareness. It is seen as a temporary manifestation or appearance within the larger fabric of reality. Non-duality often encourages direct experiential realization of this underlying unity, transcending the limitations of the individual ego and recognizing the interconnectedness of all things.
In summary, George Gurdjieff's perspective on the person focuses on awakening and integrating various aspects of the self through self-observation and conscious effort, with the aim of attaining a higher level of consciousness. These higher levels of consciousness are the 3rd state, self-remembering, and the 4th state of consciousness, objective consciousness. Non-duality, on the other hand, emphasizes the illusory nature of individuality and advocates for the direct realization of the underlying unity of existence beyond the confines of personal identity.
Expand on this: "In summary, George Gurdjieff's perspective on the person focuses on awakening and integrating various aspects of the self through self-observation and conscious effort, with the aim of attaining a higher level of consciousness. Non-duality, on the other hand, emphasizes the illusory nature of individuality and advocates for the direct realization of the underlying unity of existence beyond the confines of personal identity."
ChatGPT: Certainly! Let's delve deeper into the perspectives of George Gurdjieff and non-duality on the person:
George Gurdjieff's Perspective:
George Gurdjieff's philosophy centers around the idea that ordinary human beings live in a state of unconsciousness and mechanical behavior. Yes, state one is ordinary sleep, and dream sleep. The second state of consciousness is what we are in now, Gurdjieff called it the so-called waking state, but it is really a state of sleep. He believed that individuals are generally identified with their thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations without recognizing the deeper essence of their being. Yes. Identified means that thoughts, feelings-emotions, bodily actions, events, people, places, things, take one's attention and/or awareness. Gurdjieff emphasized the need for self-observation and self-remembering as transformative practices. Yes. Transformative means food, air and impressions are transformed into a finer energy, an energy not normally present in the human organism. This finer energy eventually results in the 3rd state of consciousness, and way down the road the 4th state of consciousness. This occurs through interior practices using attention (self-observation) and/or awareness (self-remembering, AKA the first conscious shock. IOW, the practice brings the 3rd state of consciousness).
Self-observation involves cultivating a heightened awareness of one's thoughts, emotions, and actions in everyday life. By observing oneself without judgment, Gurdjieff believed individuals could develop a clearer understanding of their mechanical patterns, automatic reactions, and the influences that shape their behavior. This self-observation helps to reveal the fragmented nature of the human psyche and the disconnection between different centers of one's being. Yes, but self-observation is just impartially seeing what's there, with the use of {bare} attention. IOW, no thinking involved, none whatsoever. When thinking enters, it's no longer self-observation. Just to clarify. If thoughts (or feelings or bodily actions) occur and take one's attention, self-observation ends. It's not so easy to observe thoughts, easier to observe body-actions. Interior work is done of the moment, simultaneous with what is observed.
In addition to self-observation, Gurdjieff advocated for self-remembering, which entails maintaining a continuous awareness of oneself and one's aim or purpose. This practice involves a deliberate effort to stay present and connected to one's deeper intentions, rather than being carried away by distractions or the demands of the external world. This is pretty accurate, but it necessarily lacks specificity, as the methods are never written down, the inner teaching is an oral tradition. But continuous awareness is not in any sense easy, as anyone who has tried simply meditation will know from experience. Gurdjieff believed that through self-observation and self-remembering, individuals could gradually awaken to their true nature and achieve a higher level of consciousness, which he referred to as "self-consciousness" or "objective consciousness." Accurate. As I wrote earlier, the inner teaching is all about energy. self-observation saves energy, self-remembering AKA the first conscious shock transforms energy to a finer quality. (So saving energy is important, to have something to transform). This finer quality of energy is what brings the 3rd state of consciousness (and eventually the 4th state of consciousness, objective consciousness). This is why there is a movement from the known into the unknown. The 3rd state of consciousness is completely new territory, for any one person. No map can ever prepare you for the territory.
Non-duality's Perspective:
Non-duality, rooted in various spiritual traditions, challenges the conventional notion of personal identity and individuality. It suggests that the sense of being a separate self, distinct from the rest of existence, is ultimately an illusion. According to non-dual teachings, the boundaries between self and other, subject and object, are constructed by the mind and do not reflect the fundamental nature of reality.
From a non-dual perspective, there is a recognition that the personal identity we typically associate with ourselves is a product of thoughts, beliefs, and conditioning, rather than an absolute truth. Non-duality invites individuals to question the boundaries of the self and inquire into the nature of their true identity. It suggests that the underlying reality is a seamless and interconnected oneness, often referred to as "consciousness," "awareness," or "emptiness."
The goal of non-dual realization is to directly perceive this underlying unity and transcend the limitations of individuality. It involves a shift in perception from the identification with the personal self to an awareness of the impersonal and universal consciousness that permeates all of existence. This shift in perception is often described as a direct, non-conceptual realization that goes beyond intellectual understanding.
In non-duality, practices such as meditation, self-inquiry, and mindfulness are often employed to facilitate the direct experiential realization of the illusory nature of personal identity and the interconnectedness of all things.
In summary, George Gurdjieff's perspective on the person emphasizes self-observation and self-remembering to awaken and integrate various aspects of the self, leading to a higher level of consciousness. This is somewhat misleading, it is misleading. Gurdjieff taught that first, one must become a balanced man or woman. Everyone uses one center more than another, the 3 centers the intellectual center, the emotional center, the moving & instinctive center. So we are distorted by using too much energy in one area, and then the other centers have to steal energy, and this causes unbalance. The beginning of awakening, is recognizing one's mechanicalness. This gives incentive to do more interior practice. But this is just a start. Only the transforming of energy leads to the 3rd state of consciousness, the awake state (that is, it's beyond the so-called waking state of the second state of consciousness). So to say one awakens and integrates the various aspects of self, is misleading, it's just incorrect. Awakening is beyond any thinking, feeling or bodily doing. Further clarification. The self cannot see its mechanicalness, this is offensive. Something must stand apart, to see. attention and awareness are apart and separate from thoughts, feelings/emotions and body-actions, so it's attention-awareness which can observe, impartially. Non-duality, on the other hand, challenges the notion of individuality altogether and aims for a direct realization of the underlying unity of existence, transcending personal identity.
I will bump the microcosmos macrocosmos thread. In the beginning of it are quotes from Gurdjieff about the unity of everything existing. So, yes, there is one unified whole, but there is ATST (ouroboros') compartmentalization in the unity. Basically, E Pluribus Unum.
Task: Compare the beliefs of George Gurdjieff and non-duality. Specifically the view of the person.
ChatGPT: George Gurdjieff and non-duality have distinct perspectives on the nature of the person. While both explore the nature of reality and human existence, their approaches and beliefs differ in significant ways. Let's examine their views on the person:
George Gurdjieff:
George Gurdjieff was a spiritual teacher who developed the philosophy known as the Fourth Way. Gurdjieff didn't develop his teaching. He was clear he himself had teachers, and the teaching preexisted himself, even to thousands of years. According to Gurdjieff, the ordinary person is asleep, unaware of their true nature and living in a state of mechanicality. He believed that individuals possess multiple centers within themselves, such as the physical, emotional, and intellectual centers, which are typically disconnected and in conflict. Gurdjieff emphasized the importance of self-observation and self-remembering as means to awaken and integrate these centers. He also proposed that humans have the potential to develop a higher level of consciousness, which he referred to as "self-consciousness" or "objective consciousness." self-consciousness is AKA self-remembering, it's the 3rd state of consciousness, it's knowing one's self as one is. objective consciousness is the 4th state of consciousness, it's knowing the world as it exists in actuality.
Gurdjieff's perspective on the person involves a deep exploration of the human condition, the identification of mechanical patterns, and the quest for self-transformation. He advocated for a disciplined approach to self-development, incorporating practices such as meditation, self-observation, and conscious effort.
Non-duality:
Non-duality, often associated with spiritual traditions like Advaita Vedanta and Zen Buddhism, posits that there is ultimately no inherent separation between the individual and the rest of existence. It emphasizes the non-dual nature of reality, asserting that the distinction between self and the external world is illusory. Non-duality suggests that the sense of individuality or personal identity is a product of the mind and that the true essence of existence is undivided and unbounded.
From a non-dual perspective, the person is considered an expression of the universal consciousness or awareness. It is seen as a temporary manifestation or appearance within the larger fabric of reality. Non-duality often encourages direct experiential realization of this underlying unity, transcending the limitations of the individual ego and recognizing the interconnectedness of all things.
In summary, George Gurdjieff's perspective on the person focuses on awakening and integrating various aspects of the self through self-observation and conscious effort, with the aim of attaining a higher level of consciousness. These higher levels of consciousness are the 3rd state, self-remembering, and the 4th state of consciousness, objective consciousness. Non-duality, on the other hand, emphasizes the illusory nature of individuality and advocates for the direct realization of the underlying unity of existence beyond the confines of personal identity.
Expand on this: "In summary, George Gurdjieff's perspective on the person focuses on awakening and integrating various aspects of the self through self-observation and conscious effort, with the aim of attaining a higher level of consciousness. Non-duality, on the other hand, emphasizes the illusory nature of individuality and advocates for the direct realization of the underlying unity of existence beyond the confines of personal identity."
ChatGPT: Certainly! Let's delve deeper into the perspectives of George Gurdjieff and non-duality on the person:
George Gurdjieff's Perspective:
George Gurdjieff's philosophy centers around the idea that ordinary human beings live in a state of unconsciousness and mechanical behavior. Yes, state one is ordinary sleep, and dream sleep. The second state of consciousness is what we are in now, Gurdjieff called it the so-called waking state, but it is really a state of sleep. He believed that individuals are generally identified with their thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations without recognizing the deeper essence of their being. Yes. Identified means that thoughts, feelings-emotions, bodily actions, events, people, places, things, take one's attention and/or awareness. Gurdjieff emphasized the need for self-observation and self-remembering as transformative practices. Yes. Transformative means food, air and impressions are transformed into a finer energy, an energy not normally present in the human organism. This finer energy eventually results in the 3rd state of consciousness, and way down the road the 4th state of consciousness. This occurs through interior practices using attention (self-observation) and/or awareness (self-remembering, AKA the first conscious shock. IOW, the practice brings the 3rd state of consciousness).
Self-observation involves cultivating a heightened awareness of one's thoughts, emotions, and actions in everyday life. By observing oneself without judgment, Gurdjieff believed individuals could develop a clearer understanding of their mechanical patterns, automatic reactions, and the influences that shape their behavior. This self-observation helps to reveal the fragmented nature of the human psyche and the disconnection between different centers of one's being. Yes, but self-observation is just impartially seeing what's there, with the use of {bare} attention. IOW, no thinking involved, none whatsoever. When thinking enters, it's no longer self-observation. Just to clarify. If thoughts (or feelings or bodily actions) occur and take one's attention, self-observation ends. It's not so easy to observe thoughts, easier to observe body-actions. Interior work is done of the moment, simultaneous with what is observed.
In addition to self-observation, Gurdjieff advocated for self-remembering, which entails maintaining a continuous awareness of oneself and one's aim or purpose. This practice involves a deliberate effort to stay present and connected to one's deeper intentions, rather than being carried away by distractions or the demands of the external world. This is pretty accurate, but it necessarily lacks specificity, as the methods are never written down, the inner teaching is an oral tradition. But continuous awareness is not in any sense easy, as anyone who has tried simply meditation will know from experience. Gurdjieff believed that through self-observation and self-remembering, individuals could gradually awaken to their true nature and achieve a higher level of consciousness, which he referred to as "self-consciousness" or "objective consciousness." Accurate. As I wrote earlier, the inner teaching is all about energy. self-observation saves energy, self-remembering AKA the first conscious shock transforms energy to a finer quality. (So saving energy is important, to have something to transform). This finer quality of energy is what brings the 3rd state of consciousness (and eventually the 4th state of consciousness, objective consciousness). This is why there is a movement from the known into the unknown. The 3rd state of consciousness is completely new territory, for any one person. No map can ever prepare you for the territory.
Non-duality's Perspective:
Non-duality, rooted in various spiritual traditions, challenges the conventional notion of personal identity and individuality. It suggests that the sense of being a separate self, distinct from the rest of existence, is ultimately an illusion. According to non-dual teachings, the boundaries between self and other, subject and object, are constructed by the mind and do not reflect the fundamental nature of reality.
From a non-dual perspective, there is a recognition that the personal identity we typically associate with ourselves is a product of thoughts, beliefs, and conditioning, rather than an absolute truth. Non-duality invites individuals to question the boundaries of the self and inquire into the nature of their true identity. It suggests that the underlying reality is a seamless and interconnected oneness, often referred to as "consciousness," "awareness," or "emptiness."
The goal of non-dual realization is to directly perceive this underlying unity and transcend the limitations of individuality. It involves a shift in perception from the identification with the personal self to an awareness of the impersonal and universal consciousness that permeates all of existence. This shift in perception is often described as a direct, non-conceptual realization that goes beyond intellectual understanding.
In non-duality, practices such as meditation, self-inquiry, and mindfulness are often employed to facilitate the direct experiential realization of the illusory nature of personal identity and the interconnectedness of all things.
In summary, George Gurdjieff's perspective on the person emphasizes self-observation and self-remembering to awaken and integrate various aspects of the self, leading to a higher level of consciousness. This is somewhat misleading, it is misleading. Gurdjieff taught that first, one must become a balanced man or woman. Everyone uses one center more than another, the 3 centers the intellectual center, the emotional center, the moving & instinctive center. So we are distorted by using too much energy in one area, and then the other centers have to steal energy, and this causes unbalance. The beginning of awakening, is recognizing one's mechanicalness. This gives incentive to do more interior practice. But this is just a start. Only the transforming of energy leads to the 3rd state of consciousness, the awake state (that is, it's beyond the so-called waking state of the second state of consciousness). So to say one awakens and integrates the various aspects of self, is misleading, it's just incorrect. Awakening is beyond any thinking, feeling or bodily doing. Further clarification. The self cannot see its mechanicalness, this is offensive. Something must stand apart, to see. attention and awareness are apart and separate from thoughts, feelings/emotions and body-actions, so it's attention-awareness which can observe, impartially. Non-duality, on the other hand, challenges the notion of individuality altogether and aims for a direct realization of the underlying unity of existence, transcending personal identity.
I will bump the microcosmos macrocosmos thread. In the beginning of it are quotes from Gurdjieff about the unity of everything existing. So, yes, there is one unified whole, but there is ATST (ouroboros') compartmentalization in the unity. Basically, E Pluribus Unum.