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Post by Reefs on Mar 4, 2018 22:34:45 GMT -5
I'd say the more riddles the more gets lost in translation. So talk to me as you would to a child or a golden retriever. Trying to push a noodle? Okay.
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Post by laughter on Mar 4, 2018 23:44:00 GMT -5
Solipsism also goes against the commonly observed tendency for sane adult humans in the western world to interpret the world as external and existing independently of themselves. hmmm... .. now if only philosophy guy could have been smart enough to understand sophomore math and physics ...
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Post by zendancer on Mar 5, 2018 3:38:18 GMT -5
I agree. Apparently, and I'm basing this upon numerous accounts in the literature, there are various kinds of CC experiences, from short and shallow to long-lasting and deep. The Japanese use the term "daikensho" to distinguish the deep ones. A daikensho experience reveals that what we call "the universe" is alive, unified, infinite, mind-bogglingly intelligent, and aware.This is experienced directly by Source through some unknown organ of perception, or through some circuit of the intellect that is not normally activated. This realization is at least as important as SR, and maybe more so. After such an experience, one never again thinks about the universe/reality in the same way as before. Realizations come in different sequences for different people. Some people attain SR and then later have a oneness realization, and vice versa. There are also all kinds of other realizations that can occur either as separate distinct realizations or in combination with other realizations. A few of them include: 1. Everyone is doing exactly what they must be doing at each moment 3. Time, space, causality, thingness, separateness, and all other distinctions are imaginary 4. The illusion of "if"-thinking (imagining alternative events) 5. The difference between relative meaning (imaginary) and absolute meaning 6. The difference between judging and discerning 7. The illusion of volition 8. The illusion of personal selfhood What's the difference between someone who's had all of these realizations (a sage) and someone who hasn't? A sage interacts with the world directly rather than indirectly through thoughts ABOUT the world. She doesn't think about appearances, consciousness, reality, meaning, how anything "ought" to be, or how any person "should" act. She accepts the world at face-value, and life is simple, uncomplicated, and obvious. She doesn't try to control thoughts, and doesn't care whether the mind is active, silent, or even "running on autopilot" because she knows that Source is doing everything, and she is one-with THAT. She's free, at peace, and happy, but she doesn't think about freedom, peace, or being happy. She is rarely, if ever, self-reflective. Then Zen seems to be mostly about CC (original face). What is SR called in Zen? It's called "satori," or at least that's how i understand the use of the term. And yes, I think the primary focus of Zen is upon CC. Zen people consider "kensho" (a CC experience) to be the initial important breakthrough, and freedom comes later with satori, followed by other clarifying realizations (the five ranks of Tozan).
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Post by Reefs on Mar 5, 2018 9:32:17 GMT -5
Then Zen seems to be mostly about CC (original face). What is SR called in Zen? It's called "satori," or at least that's how i understand the use of the term. And yes, I think the primary focus of Zen is upon CC. Zen people consider "kensho" (a CC experience) to be the initial important breakthrough, and freedom comes later with satori, followed by other clarifying realizations (the five ranks of Tozan). Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 5, 2018 9:56:43 GMT -5
It's called "satori," or at least that's how i understand the use of the term. And yes, I think the primary focus of Zen is upon CC. Zen people consider "kensho" (a CC experience) to be the initial important breakthrough, and freedom comes later with satori, followed by other clarifying realizations (the five ranks of Tozan). Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here. D.T. Suzuki comes to mind (Below is excerpt from fractalenlightenment.com/34882/spirituality/satori-the-zen-concept-of-enlightenment-and-self-realisation)But, typically, at least how I've heard,vstudents of Zen are veered away from "discussion" as they will likely move back into trying to "bring it down to the rational/conceptual/self-referential level of mind. Characteristics of SatoriAlthough Satori is beyond intellectual and logical analysis and no set argument or explanation can tell what true Satori is like, there are a few basic characteristics which might help in better understanding certain principles of Satori. D.T. Suzuki said that Satori is defined by irrationality. It does not have any intellectual reasoning or conclusion to it. This concept transcends the barrier of logic. Moving further, Satori comes with an intuitive insight. That is to say, there is a metaphysical aspect to it, which allows us to be more intuitive. Without this characteristic, Satori looses its meaning. Furthermore, Suzuki states that Satori is both ‘authoritative’ in nature and is an ‘affirmation’, which means that no matter what logic we desire to give to override Satori, we can never hope to supersede Satori with logic. “Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.”4 An affirmation is like a declaration of truth and usually used in a positive connotation. A ‘Sense of the beyond’ is yet another pivotal characteristic of Satori. When we are performing Satori, we feel we are longer encased in our body, we are up and beyond, where we transcend the so-called real and witness the surreal, is what this characteristic all about. Impersonal Tone, a feeling of exaltation, and momentariness are few other integral features, spoken of by Suzuki. The experience is Satori is not personal, i.e. the ego ceases to exist and that is why it becomes universal. This freedom from the bondages of mundane thinking, brings about a feeling of elation. Lastly, but most importantly the momentary nature of Satori defines it to the core. It is abrupt, may last for a few moments or minutes or hours or days and vanish. “if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not Satori”, says Suzuki.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 5, 2018 10:25:54 GMT -5
It's called "satori," or at least that's how i understand the use of the term. And yes, I think the primary focus of Zen is upon CC. Zen people consider "kensho" (a CC experience) to be the initial important breakthrough, and freedom comes later with satori, followed by other clarifying realizations (the five ranks of Tozan). Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here. Yes, there are dozens of accounts of kensho experiences, but not much is written about satori. That's why I'm not sure if there's agreement in the Zen community regarding exactly what it means. ZM Hakuin wrote that he had had more than a hundred kensho experiences, but only a handful of them went deep. He claimed that his deepest kensho occurred long after satori (at the age of about 60) and was triggered by the sound of falling snow. Katsuki Sekida, a lay executive, described his first big experience in a letter to a ZM: "Thank you for the happy day I spent at your monastery. You remember the discussion which arose about Self-realization centering around that American. At that time I hardly imagined that in a few days I would be reporting to you my own experience. The day after I called on you I was riding home on the train with my wife. I was reading a book on Zen by Son-o, who, you may recall, was a master of Soto Zen living in Sendai during the Genroku period (1688-1703). As the train was nearing Ofuna station, I ran across the line: 'I came to realize clearly that Mind is no other than mountains and rivers and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars.' I had read this before, but this time it impressed itself upon me so vividly that I was startled. I said to myself, 'After seven or eight years of zazen I have finally perceived the essence of this statement," and couldn't suppress the tears that began to well up. Somewhat ashamed to find myself crying among the crowd, I averted my face and dabbed at my eyes.' Meanwhile the train had arrived at Kamakura station and my wife and I got off. On the way home I said to her, 'In my present exhilarated state of mind I could rise to the greatest heights.' At midnight I abruptly awakened. At first my mind was foggy, then suddenly that quotation flashed into my consciousness: 'I came to realize clearly that....' And I repeated it. Then all at once I was struck as though by lightning, and the next instant heaven and earth crumbled and disappeared. Instantaneously, like surging waves, a tremendous delight welled up in me, a veritable hurricane of delight, as I laughed loudly and wildly: "Ha, ha, ha, ha ha,! There's no reasoning here, no reasoning at all! Ha, ha, ha, ha!' The empty sky split in two, then opened its enormous mouth and began to laugh uproariously: 'Ha, ha, ha!' Later one of the members of my family told me that my laughter sounded inhuman. I was now lying on my back. Suddenly I sat up and struck the bed with all my might and beat the floor with my feet, as if trying to smash it, all the while laughing riotously. My wife, and youngest son, sleeping near me, were now awake and frightened. Covering my mouth with her hand, my wife exclaimed, 'What's the matter with you?' But I wasn't aware of this until told about it later. My son told me later he thought that I had gone mad. 'I've come to enlightenment! The Buddha and the patriarchs haven't deceived me! They haven't deceived me!' I remember crying out. When I calmed down I apologized to the rest of the family, who had come downstairs frightened by the commotion." There's more to his account, along with several other similar accounts in Philip Kapleau's "The Three Pillars of Zen." At one time I collected a dozen or more accounts similar to this one in intensity. This executive went on to become a ZM himself and wrote a book, "Zen Training" that discusses a lot of interesting issues related to kensho experiences in detail. On one Zen retreat I met a fellow who at one time had been a biochemist. He told me that while he was on a Zen retreat in the past, he had a similar experience to the one described above. Afterwards, he left his high-paying scientific job behind and became a Zen monk. Later he became a Zen Master. When I get a chance, I'll look through some of the books in my library and see if I can find anyone who clearly explains what the word "satori" describes. I've always assumed that satori is the one realization that leads to freedom, so I equated that realization with Self-realization.
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Post by laughter on Mar 5, 2018 10:29:14 GMT -5
Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here. D.T. Suzuki comes to mind (Below is excerpt from fractalenlightenment.com/34882/spirituality/satori-the-zen-concept-of-enlightenment-and-self-realisation)But, typically, at least how I've heard,vstudents of Zen are veered away from "discussion" as they will likely move back into trying to "bring it down to the rational/conceptual/self-referential level of mind. Characteristics of SatoriAlthough Satori is beyond intellectual and logical analysis and no set argument or explanation can tell what true Satori is like, there are a few basic characteristics which might help in better understanding certain principles of Satori. D.T. Suzuki said that Satori is defined by irrationality. It does not have any intellectual reasoning or conclusion to it. This concept transcends the barrier of logic. Moving further, Satori comes with an intuitive insight. That is to say, there is a metaphysical aspect to it, which allows us to be more intuitive. Without this characteristic, Satori looses its meaning. Furthermore, Suzuki states that Satori is both ‘authoritative’ in nature and is an ‘affirmation’, which means that no matter what logic we desire to give to override Satori, we can never hope to supersede Satori with logic. “Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.”4 An affirmation is like a declaration of truth and usually used in a positive connotation. A ‘Sense of the beyond’ is yet another pivotal characteristic of Satori. When we are performing Satori, we feel we are longer encased in our body, we are up and beyond, where we transcend the so-called real and witness the surreal, is what this characteristic all about. Impersonal Tone, a feeling of exaltation, and momentariness are few other integral features, spoken of by Suzuki. The experience is Satori is not personal, i.e. the ego ceases to exist and that is why it becomes universal. This freedom from the bondages of mundane thinking, brings about a feeling of elation. Lastly, but most importantly the momentary nature of Satori defines it to the core. It is abrupt, may last for a few moments or minutes or hours or days and vanish. “if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not Satori”, says Suzuki. Adyashanti's another guy who started out Zen. If I recall his interview at the back of "Emptiness Dancing" correctly, he fielded a question to the effect of "how do you know your last realization was the final realization?" His answer included this quality, and he went on to say that for him it was completely unenergetic. He explained that he'd had several of those cathartic-type experiences prior to this one. But for this one, there was no emotion to it, no big release of pent-up tension. Just a before, and then an after when he knew the seeking was over.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 5, 2018 12:12:00 GMT -5
D.T. Suzuki comes to mind (Below is excerpt from fractalenlightenment.com/34882/spirituality/satori-the-zen-concept-of-enlightenment-and-self-realisation)But, typically, at least how I've heard,vstudents of Zen are veered away from "discussion" as they will likely move back into trying to "bring it down to the rational/conceptual/self-referential level of mind. Characteristics of SatoriAlthough Satori is beyond intellectual and logical analysis and no set argument or explanation can tell what true Satori is like, there are a few basic characteristics which might help in better understanding certain principles of Satori. D.T. Suzuki said that Satori is defined by irrationality. It does not have any intellectual reasoning or conclusion to it. This concept transcends the barrier of logic. Moving further, Satori comes with an intuitive insight. That is to say, there is a metaphysical aspect to it, which allows us to be more intuitive. Without this characteristic, Satori looses its meaning. Furthermore, Suzuki states that Satori is both ‘authoritative’ in nature and is an ‘affirmation’, which means that no matter what logic we desire to give to override Satori, we can never hope to supersede Satori with logic. “Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.”4 An affirmation is like a declaration of truth and usually used in a positive connotation. A ‘Sense of the beyond’ is yet another pivotal characteristic of Satori. When we are performing Satori, we feel we are longer encased in our body, we are up and beyond, where we transcend the so-called real and witness the surreal, is what this characteristic all about. Impersonal Tone, a feeling of exaltation, and momentariness are few other integral features, spoken of by Suzuki. The experience is Satori is not personal, i.e. the ego ceases to exist and that is why it becomes universal. This freedom from the bondages of mundane thinking, brings about a feeling of elation. Lastly, but most importantly the momentary nature of Satori defines it to the core. It is abrupt, may last for a few moments or minutes or hours or days and vanish. “if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not Satori”, says Suzuki. Adyashanti's another guy who started out Zen. If I recall his interview at the back of "Emptiness Dancing" correctly, he fielded a question to the effect of "how do you know your last realization was the final realization?" His answer included this quality, and he went on to say that for him it was completely unenergetic. He explained that he'd had several of those cathartic-type experiences prior to this one. But for this one, there was no emotion to it, no big release of pent-up tension. Just a before, and then an after when he knew the seeking was over. That was precisely what happened to me. I had one huge CC experience followed by dozens of significant realizations during subsequent years. All of those realizations had effects upon my understanding and changed my way of life (I became more and more non-reflective), but none of them resulted in psychological freedom--there was still some fundamental piece of the puzzle missing. SR was that missing piece of the puzzle. It was instant, unenergetic, and obvious. I saw that I had never been who I had thought I was (because the little guy in the head had totally vanished), and then I realized what I really am--the entire cosmos, undivided. The little guy and the stories about the little guy were all an illusion. Like Adya, I instantly knew that I was free, and I knew that my search for truth had come to an end. I finally had seen the Big Picture, and seeing the Big Picture put the mind to rest. After that realization, all kinds of previous self-referential thought patterns and processes simply ceased to appear, and life became a kind of unified flow. Other minor realizations occurred later, but they were relatively unimportant compared to SR.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 5, 2018 12:59:05 GMT -5
Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here. Yes, there are dozens of accounts of kensho experiences, but not much is written about satori. That's why I'm not sure if there's agreement in the Zen community regarding exactly what it means. ZM Hakuin wrote that he had had more than a hundred kensho experiences, but only a handful of them went deep. He claimed that his deepest kensho occurred long after satori (at the age of about 60) and was triggered by the sound of falling snow. Katsuki Sekida, a lay executive, described his first big experience in a letter to a ZM: When I get a chance, I'll look through some of the books in my library and see if I can find anyone who clearly explains what the word "satori" describes. I've always assumed that satori is the one realization that leads to freedom, so I equated that realization with Self-realization. I think it's at the end of The Tree Pillars of Zen (Philip Kapleau) that Albert Low gives his description of satori. (I don't have it handy). He takes several pages, it is very energetic. He describes what leads up to it, something unusual he knows is going on. His teacher (I think Kapleau) sort-of helps guide him along (in a manner of speaking). If you find that it might be interesting to post...
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Post by laughter on Mar 5, 2018 14:21:05 GMT -5
Adyashanti's another guy who started out Zen. If I recall his interview at the back of "Emptiness Dancing" correctly, he fielded a question to the effect of "how do you know your last realization was the final realization?" His answer included this quality, and he went on to say that for him it was completely unenergetic. He explained that he'd had several of those cathartic-type experiences prior to this one. But for this one, there was no emotion to it, no big release of pent-up tension. Just a before, and then an after when he knew the seeking was over. That was precisely what happened to me. I had one huge CC experience followed by dozens of significant realizations during subsequent years. All of those realizations had effects upon my understanding and changed my way of life (I became more and more non-reflective), but none of them resulted in psychological freedom--there was still some fundamental piece of the puzzle missing. SR was that missing piece of the puzzle. It was instant, unenergetic, and obvious. I saw that I had never been who I had thought I was (because the little guy in the head had totally vanished), and then I realized what I really am--the entire cosmos, undivided. The little guy and the stories about the little guy were all an illusion. Like Adya, I instantly knew that I was free, and I knew that my search for truth had come to an end. I finally had seen the Big Picture, and seeing the Big Picture put the mind to rest. After that realization, all kinds of previous self-referential thought patterns and processes simply ceased to appear, and life became a kind of unified flow. Other minor realizations occurred later, but they were relatively unimportant compared to SR. Yeah the similarity was hard to miss. None of the experiences prior to his realization I've read Adya describe are as intensely disorienting as your phone ringing. But one of them I rezzed with pretty well. He tells about how one time when he was doing a walking mediation in his yard, he heard birdsong (or a chirp or whatever), and had a sudden epiphany about the source of the perception that completely re-arranged his perspective in a way that he really felt the change.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 5, 2018 15:00:36 GMT -5
Yes, there are dozens of accounts of kensho experiences, but not much is written about satori. That's why I'm not sure if there's agreement in the Zen community regarding exactly what it means. ZM Hakuin wrote that he had had more than a hundred kensho experiences, but only a handful of them went deep. He claimed that his deepest kensho occurred long after satori (at the age of about 60) and was triggered by the sound of falling snow. Katsuki Sekida, a lay executive, described his first big experience in a letter to a ZM: When I get a chance, I'll look through some of the books in my library and see if I can find anyone who clearly explains what the word "satori" describes. I've always assumed that satori is the one realization that leads to freedom, so I equated that realization with Self-realization. I think it's at the end of The Tree Pillars of Zen (Philip Kapleau) that Albert Low gives his description of satori. (I don't have it handy). He takes several pages, it is very energetic. He describes what leads up to it, something unusual he knows is going on. His teacher (I think Kapleau) sort-of helps guide him along (in a manner of speaking). If you find that it might be interesting to post... I scanned 3 Pillars and also several other Zen books, and most writers seem to equate a CC experience with enlightenment, and some writers use both the term kensho and satori as equivalent meanings of the term "enlightenment," but this is obviously not the case. Sekida says that absolute samadhi is the precursor to kensho, and he appears to think that absolute samadhi (nirvikalpa samadhi) and positive samadhi are the most important things to attain in Zen training. From my POV this emphasis derives from his own experience, and is way off the mark. From reading about Sekida, it appears that he attained freedom, but he was deeply conditioned by the Zen tradition, and never seems to have realized that many of the things Zen emphasizes are just part of that tradition, and are, IMO, extremely misguided. If I were still involved in the Zen tradition, I would tell people that the term "satori" ought to be used only as a synonym for SR. When I was involved in the Zen tradition, I used to wonder, "Will it always be necessary to meditate every day in the way that these people claim?" Today, I know that the answer to that question is a resounding "No." Zazen is just one way of temporarily silencing the mind to enhance the likelihood of realizations. ATA-T was equally effective for me, and after SR, the entire idea of a daily practice becomes a complete nonsense. The real goal of the spiritual search is to find out what's going on (to see the Big Picture), and to then live an ordinary life in a psychologically-unified state of mind--to live in what some of us call "the natural state." The ultimate realization can be stated as, "I am what is, and there is no other, and whatever is happening is an unfoldment of what I am." Going to the grocery store is what I am; looking at a sunset is what I am, reflecting about what I am is what I am, and even being deluded about what I am is what I am. There is no inside or outside to what I am. This body/mind, like all body/minds, is one-with the Infinite, and whatever it does is a movement of the Infinite.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 5, 2018 23:44:03 GMT -5
Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here. D.T. Suzuki comes to mind (Below is excerpt from fractalenlightenment.com/34882/spirituality/satori-the-zen-concept-of-enlightenment-and-self-realisation)But, typically, at least how I've heard,vstudents of Zen are veered away from "discussion" as they will likely move back into trying to "bring it down to the rational/conceptual/self-referential level of mind. Characteristics of SatoriAlthough Satori is beyond intellectual and logical analysis and no set argument or explanation can tell what true Satori is like, there are a few basic characteristics which might help in better understanding certain principles of Satori. D.T. Suzuki said that Satori is defined by irrationality. It does not have any intellectual reasoning or conclusion to it. This concept transcends the barrier of logic. Moving further, Satori comes with an intuitive insight. That is to say, there is a metaphysical aspect to it, which allows us to be more intuitive. Without this characteristic, Satori looses its meaning. Furthermore, Suzuki states that Satori is both ‘authoritative’ in nature and is an ‘affirmation’, which means that no matter what logic we desire to give to override Satori, we can never hope to supersede Satori with logic. “Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.”4 An affirmation is like a declaration of truth and usually used in a positive connotation. A ‘Sense of the beyond’ is yet another pivotal characteristic of Satori. When we are performing Satori, we feel we are longer encased in our body, we are up and beyond, where we transcend the so-called real and witness the surreal, is what this characteristic all about. Impersonal Tone, a feeling of exaltation, and momentariness are few other integral features, spoken of by Suzuki. The experience is Satori is not personal, i.e. the ego ceases to exist and that is why it becomes universal. This freedom from the bondages of mundane thinking, brings about a feeling of elation. Lastly, but most importantly the momentary nature of Satori defines it to the core. It is abrupt, may last for a few moments or minutes or hours or days and vanish. “if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not Satori”, says Suzuki. I read Suzuki's books in my early seeker days with great interest. But he is a scholar and he doesn't seem to speak from first hand experience. What he describes there, that's not what we call SR, actually not even a deep CC. Most likely it's one of the deeper samadhi states. So I'm a little surprised to see this kind of confusion in the Zen literature when it comes to SR.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 6, 2018 0:14:15 GMT -5
Right, satori! Well, if you look at what the Chinese characters mean, then kensho (見性) literally means looking into your (true) nature (見 to see or look; 性 character, nature or essence). And that's basically what we call CC. Satori (悟) just mans realization or understanding. But I've often seen the character 悟 translated as enlightenment. So here it's not so clear. Do you know of any references or descriptions of kensho and satori in the zen classics? What I usually came across in zen books were mostly stories that just described the circumstance of these realizations, e.g. a monk was sweeping the floor, heard a strange noise and suddenly he had a realization. I've never actually read a detailed description of the content or nature of the realization. Would be interesting to compare that with what we are discussing here. Yes, there are dozens of accounts of kensho experiences, but not much is written about satori. That's why I'm not sure if there's agreement in the Zen community regarding exactly what it means. ZM Hakuin wrote that he had had more than a hundred kensho experiences, but only a handful of them went deep. He claimed that his deepest kensho occurred long after satori (at the age of about 60) and was triggered by the sound of falling snow. Katsuki Sekida, a lay executive, described his first big experience in a letter to a ZM: "Thank you for the happy day I spent at your monastery. You remember the discussion which arose about Self-realization centering around that American. At that time I hardly imagined that in a few days I would be reporting to you my own experience. The day after I called on you I was riding home on the train with my wife. I was reading a book on Zen by Son-o, who, you may recall, was a master of Soto Zen living in Sendai during the Genroku period (1688-1703). As the train was nearing Ofuna station, I ran across the line: 'I came to realize clearly that Mind is no other than mountains and rivers and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars.' I had read this before, but this time it impressed itself upon me so vividly that I was startled. I said to myself, 'After seven or eight years of zazen I have finally perceived the essence of this statement," and couldn't suppress the tears that began to well up. Somewhat ashamed to find myself crying among the crowd, I averted my face and dabbed at my eyes.' Meanwhile the train had arrived at Kamakura station and my wife and I got off. On the way home I said to her, 'In my present exhilarated state of mind I could rise to the greatest heights.' At midnight I abruptly awakened. At first my mind was foggy, then suddenly that quotation flashed into my consciousness: 'I came to realize clearly that....' And I repeated it. Then all at once I was struck as though by lightning, and the next instant heaven and earth crumbled and disappeared. Instantaneously, like surging waves, a tremendous delight welled up in me, a veritable hurricane of delight, as I laughed loudly and wildly: "Ha, ha, ha, ha ha,! There's no reasoning here, no reasoning at all! Ha, ha, ha, ha!' The empty sky split in two, then opened its enormous mouth and began to laugh uproariously: 'Ha, ha, ha!' Later one of the members of my family told me that my laughter sounded inhuman. I was now lying on my back. Suddenly I sat up and struck the bed with all my might and beat the floor with my feet, as if trying to smash it, all the while laughing riotously. My wife, and youngest son, sleeping near me, were now awake and frightened. Covering my mouth with her hand, my wife exclaimed, 'What's the matter with you?' But I wasn't aware of this until told about it later. My son told me later he thought that I had gone mad. 'I've come to enlightenment! The Buddha and the patriarchs haven't deceived me! They haven't deceived me!' I remember crying out. When I calmed down I apologized to the rest of the family, who had come downstairs frightened by the commotion." There's more to his account, along with several other similar accounts in Philip Kapleau's "The Three Pillars of Zen." At one time I collected a dozen or more accounts similar to this one in intensity. This executive went on to become a ZM himself and wrote a book, "Zen Training" that discusses a lot of interesting issues related to kensho experiences in detail. On one Zen retreat I met a fellow who at one time had been a biochemist. He told me that while he was on a Zen retreat in the past, he had a similar experience to the one described above. Afterwards, he left his high-paying scientific job behind and became a Zen monk. Later he became a Zen Master. When I get a chance, I'll look through some of the books in my library and see if I can find anyone who clearly explains what the word "satori" describes. I've always assumed that satori is the one realization that leads to freedom, so I equated that realization with Self-realization. Thanks for the long quote. Very interesting.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 6, 2018 0:20:05 GMT -5
I think it's at the end of The Tree Pillars of Zen (Philip Kapleau) that Albert Low gives his description of satori. (I don't have it handy). He takes several pages, it is very energetic. He describes what leads up to it, something unusual he knows is going on. His teacher (I think Kapleau) sort-of helps guide him along (in a manner of speaking). If you find that it might be interesting to post... I scanned 3 Pillars and also several other Zen books, and most writers seem to equate a CC experience with enlightenment, and some writers use both the term kensho and satori as equivalent meanings of the term "enlightenment," but this is obviously not the case. Sekida says that absolute samadhi is the precursor to kensho, and he appears to think that absolute samadhi (nirvikalpa samadhi) and positive samadhi are the most important things to attain in Zen training. From my POV this emphasis derives from his own experience, and is way off the mark. From reading about Sekida, it appears that he attained freedom, but he was deeply conditioned by the Zen tradition, and never seems to have realized that many of the things Zen emphasizes are just part of that tradition, and are, IMO, extremely misguided. If I were still involved in the Zen tradition, I would tell people that the term "satori" ought to be used only as a synonym for SR. When I was involved in the Zen tradition, I used to wonder, "Will it always be necessary to meditate every day in the way that these people claim?" Today, I know that the answer to that question is a resounding "No." Zazen is just one way of temporarily silencing the mind to enhance the likelihood of realizations. ATA-T was equally effective for me, and after SR, the entire idea of a daily practice becomes a complete nonsense. The real goal of the spiritual search is to find out what's going on (to see the Big Picture), and to then live an ordinary life in a psychologically-unified state of mind--to live in what some of us call "the natural state." The ultimate realization can be stated as, "I am what is, and there is no other, and whatever is happening is an unfoldment of what I am." Going to the grocery store is what I am; looking at a sunset is what I am, reflecting about what I am is what I am, and even being deluded about what I am is what I am. There is no inside or outside to what I am. This body/mind, like all body/minds, is one-with the Infinite, and whatever it does is a movement of the Infinite. My impression, and I am just speaking from memory of my early seeker days when I read every zen book I could get my hands on, is that there's a difference between the early zen (chan) in China and the later zen in Japan. The native religion and mindset of China is Taoism, not Buddhism. And to me it seemed that when zen moved to Japan that they went almost fully Buddhism. I remember some of the older chan texts actually referencing the Daodejing. What I also noticed is that those who translated early Chinese zen (chan) texts all used later Japanese commentaries as their blueprints. So now that you are somehow confirming that there is a certain uncertainty or confusion regarding Satori and it's actual meaning, I think maybe something got lost in translation when chan died out in China and was later resurrected as zen in Japan. I had no idea they were passing on such nonsense. Fascinating!
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Post by explorer on Mar 6, 2018 4:31:57 GMT -5
"The idea of a daily practice becomes a complete nonsense" after enlightenment, it is said. That may be the rare case after complete unalloyed enlightenment but I prefer to take the view that there are levels of enlightenment and that continuing meditation can enrich and deepen the experience of enlightenment. Some might say that in that case we are not talking about real enlightenment, but I think that would be a bit of a harsh judgement!
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