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Dec 22, 2017 18:07:48 GMT -5
Post by eputkonen on Dec 22, 2017 18:07:48 GMT -5
Everybody suffers - your vid proves that much at least. Are you trying to say you don't suffer? I'm not sure what you're really trying to say here. It is a good point- dying "tonight content and happy... after no longer fearing death..." When did or does that 'after' no longer fearing death part enter? Does it enter twice or what? There is the possibility for the cessation of suffering...and I am one of many who no longer suffer. Suffering is mentally created hurt/misery...a fiction of mind really...we do it to ourselves. Pain is due to the nerves of the body. It is possible to sense pain, but not suffer because of the pain. Suffering and pain are two different things. My vid was to show that pain can be experienced and yet not suffer...and actually enjoy yourself even with pain. As for the last...I was perhaps not clear - so let me clarify, there is no fear of death now...so what further scare can there be? I could die tonight...content and happy. I do not fear death. Getting older and more mileage under the belt will hold no scares for me. I embrace it all...as it comes. |
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Post by eputkonen on Dec 22, 2017 18:13:48 GMT -5
But, seeing as you've mentioned dukkha… That death is dukkha, as will be the subsequent rebirth, it's samsaric - a round which in its entirety is subject to the entire mass of stress and suffering, and which will continue in perpetuity, until such time as true liberation from samsara is apprehended. Which incidentally comes through the cessation of ignorance. "And what is ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called ignorance." No room for complacency. Death is not dukkha...nor is rebirth...unless you say it is...and then it is dukkha for you. The cessation of dukkha does not mean you will live forever in this body or never being reborn. Dukkha is suffering, discontent, and unsatisfactoriness. I am not discontented or unsatisfied by the death of this body/mind...so death is not dukkha for me...nor is life dukkha for me. Ultimately, nirvana is not other or outside of samsara. Yes, the cessation of ignorance is the key...but it is ignorance to think that "true liberation" is escaping what-is. |
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Dec 22, 2017 18:35:53 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Dec 22, 2017 18:35:53 GMT -5
But, seeing as you've mentioned dukkha… That death is dukkha, as will be the subsequent rebirth, it's samsaric - a round which in its entirety is subject to the entire mass of stress and suffering, and which will continue in perpetuity, until such time as true liberation from samsara is apprehended. Which incidentally comes through the cessation of ignorance. "And what is ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called ignorance." No room for complacency. Death is not dukkha...nor is rebirth...unless you say it is...and then it is dukkha for you. That death is dukkha is the case regardless of the saying of it or not. But to be clear, I say it, as did the Buddha. Certainly not. Dukkha ceases in conjunction with the cessation of rebirth. You've simply redefined it narrowly, to suit your position. That won't cut the mustard in the long run. Hmmm, neither are places as such, it would be closer to talk about it in terms of states of being. But there's some truth in what you say insofar as nibbana transcends samsara. To be clear though, true liberation from samsara is paranibbana. In this instance, "what-is" is ignorance. |
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Dec 22, 2017 20:13:27 GMT -5
Post by eputkonen on Dec 22, 2017 20:13:27 GMT -5
That death is dukkha is the case regardless of the saying of it or not. But to be clear, I say it, as did the Buddha. The Buddha also said dukkha can end and he was awake...so death is dukkha for those who are not awake. Life is dukkha for those who are not awake. Unless you are saying that the Buddha still had dukkha even till death? But I would disagree. The Buddha was liberated from such illusions of the mind (i.e. ignorance). He was speaking of the cessation of dukkha from experience (which means...while alive)...not as some theoretical thing that might happen after his death. You think so, but "what-is" that I spoke of is regardless of ignorance or wisdom. Ignorance is of the mind...what-is is regardless of thought or the mind. But you can believe what you want. |
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Dec 22, 2017 22:15:25 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Dec 22, 2017 22:15:25 GMT -5
That death is dukkha is the case regardless of the saying of it or not. But to be clear, I say it, as did the Buddha. The Buddha also said dukkha can end and he was awake...so death is dukkha for those who are not awake. Life is dukkha for those who are not awake. Unless you are saying that the Buddha still had dukkha even till death? But I would disagree. The Buddha was liberated from such illusions of the mind (i.e. ignorance). He was speaking of the cessation of dukkha from experience (which means...while alive)...not as some theoretical thing that might happen after his death. You think so, but "what-is" that I spoke of is regardless of ignorance or wisdom. Ignorance is of the mind...what-is is regardless of thought or the mind. But you can believe what you want. Total agreement here. |
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Dec 22, 2017 23:45:06 GMT -5
Post by silver on Dec 22, 2017 23:45:06 GMT -5
Everybody suffers - your vid proves that much at least. Are you trying to say you don't suffer? I'm not sure what you're really trying to say here. It is a good point- dying "tonight content and happy... after no longer fearing death..." When did or does that 'after' no longer fearing death part enter? Does it enter twice or what? There is the possibility for the cessation of suffering...and I am one of many who no longer suffer. Suffering is mentally created hurt/misery...a fiction of mind really...we do it to ourselves. Pain is due to the nerves of the body. It is possible to sense pain, but not suffer because of the pain. Suffering and pain are two different things. My vid was to show that pain can be experienced and yet not suffer...and actually enjoy yourself even with pain. As for the last...I was perhaps not clear - so let me clarify, there is no fear of death now...so what further scare can there be? I could die tonight...content and happy. I do not fear death. Getting older and more mileage under the belt will hold no scares for me. I embrace it all...as it comes. I do tend to think that pain and suffering is very personal thing - you can say to yourself and tell yourself that you no longer fear pain/suffering/death, but what about not knowing what it will be like to cross that bridge until you actually come to it yourself? I have my doubts about anyone thinking that they won't react to something more severe than they've ever experienced before - I think only then can we really know for sure how it will turn out. A person can philosophize about their own response/reactions until the cows come home, but I don't think anybody can count those chickens before they're hatched. Some of the best things in life are surprises. Some of the worst things in life are surprises. |
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Dec 23, 2017 0:15:40 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Dec 23, 2017 0:15:40 GMT -5
Everybody suffers - your vid proves that much at least. Are you trying to say you don't suffer? I'm not sure what you're really trying to say here. It is a good point- dying "tonight content and happy... after no longer fearing death..." When did or does that 'after' no longer fearing death part enter? Does it enter twice or what? There is the possibility for the cessation of suffering...and I am one of many who no longer suffer. Suffering is mentally created hurt/misery...a fiction of mind really...we do it to ourselves. Pain is due to the nerves of the body. It is possible to sense pain, but not suffer because of the pain. Suffering and pain are two different things. My vid was to show that pain can be experienced and yet not suffer...and actually enjoy yourself even with pain. As for the last...I was perhaps not clear - so let me clarify, there is no fear of death now...so what further scare can there be? I could die tonight...content and happy. I do not fear death. Getting older and more mileage under the belt will hold no scares for me. I embrace it all...as it comes. Understanding that pain can always get worse can mitigate suffering, but it's still a positioning of oneself relative to the pain, rather than a freedom from suffering. Ultimately, the distinction between pain and suffering loses it's meaning if the pain gets intense enough. I understand what you mean by the end of suffering -- especially as it relates to the end of the fear of death, and I'm not questioning your freedom. But the nature of suffering is entangled with the nature of what it is that we are, and there is no simple way to explain what either are without pointing. Some people might accept the distinction between pain and suffering intellectually, and miss the depth of the pointing. They're probably worse off from people who reject the pointing, because the ones who reject the pointing can at least still find a different pointing to the truth of what they are that might catch their conscious attention. While the ones who nod along because of a relative sense of self-mastery have just stumbled onto a way to anesthetize themselves. In this way the distinction between pain and suffering becomes a tool that a person uses to improve their life situation. |
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Dec 23, 2017 8:25:08 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Dec 23, 2017 8:25:08 GMT -5
That death is dukkha is the case regardless of the saying of it or not. But to be clear, I say it, as did the Buddha. The Buddha also said dukkha can end and he was awake...so death is dukkha for those who are not awake. Life is dukkha for those who are not awake. Unless you are saying that the Buddha still had dukkha even till death? But I would disagree. The Buddha was liberated from such illusions of the mind (i.e. ignorance). He was speaking of the cessation of dukkha from experience (which means...while alive)...not as some theoretical thing that might happen after his death. Dukkha isn't really something someone has. A brief and somewhat clumsy version of the story goes that, upon the final watch (his full enlightenment), the Buddha, having transmuted all kamma, was ready to transcend samsara and enter into paranibbana, but instead was moved to remain in order to pass on the perfect wisdom he had 'attained' so other beings may be freed from bondage. Anyway, as such, it wasn't really until some forty years later, upon the final dissolution of the aggregates (i.e. the localised mind-body expression that was the shakyamuni), that release from samsara, (to which dukkha is intrinsic), took place. During that interim period he did reside in a state of nibbana, a relatively blissful state, where the production of new kamma has ceased. This idea of 'liberation while still living in body' pops up from time to time but it's an incredibly tricky and nuanced notion, and despite the occasional claim to the contrary, no-one here has apprehended such a state. It's perhaps also worth mentioning that Buddhists specifically tend not to talk in terms of the death of the Buddha as such, because as the tathagata ("One who had thus gone beyond"), he didn't identify with the previously mentioned expression that was subject to dissolution, i.e. death and decay. In this instance, "what-is" is ignorance. You think so, but "what-is" that I spoke of is regardless of ignorance or wisdom. Ignorance is of the mind...what-is is regardless of thought or the mind. It doesn't entirely surprise me seeing all this dismissed as merely mind-stuff, it's basically the charge I've seen levelled at AV, (that it's mostly just concerned with psychological stuff.) It's why the Buddhist's say AV and Buddhism aren't really compatible, and really the Dhamma went much further than all that. In the end you don't get to have your cake and eat it. So all said and done, I maintain my position on this, but I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I don't want to hijack the quotes thread. Basically, in this instance I see "what-is" as another case of misguided affirmationism. Just to be clear, my position is that beliefs are overrated, and that I'm speaking from a position of penetrating insight. |
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Dec 23, 2017 8:49:51 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Dec 23, 2017 8:49:51 GMT -5
The Buddha also said dukkha can end and he was awake...so death is dukkha for those who are not awake. Life is dukkha for those who are not awake. Unless you are saying that the Buddha still had dukkha even till death? But I would disagree. The Buddha was liberated from such illusions of the mind (i.e. ignorance). He was speaking of the cessation of dukkha from experience (which means...while alive)...not as some theoretical thing that might happen after his death. Dukkha isn't really something someone has. A brief and somewhat clumsy version of the story goes that, upon the final watch (his full enlightenment), the Buddha, having transmuted all kamma, was ready to transcend samsara and enter into paranibbana, but instead was moved to remain in order to pass on the perfect wisdom he had 'attained' so other beings may be freed from bondage. Anyway, as such, it wasn't really until some forty years later, upon the final dissolution of the aggregates (i.e. the localised mind-body expression that was the shakyamuni), that release from samsara, (to which dukkha is intrinsic), took place. During that interim period he did reside in a state of nibbana, a relatively blissful state, where the production of new kamma has ceased. This idea of 'liberation while still living in body' pops up from time to time but it's an incredibly tricky and nuanced notion, and despite the occasional claim to the contrary, no-one here has apprehended such a state. It's perhaps also worth mentioning that Buddhists specifically tend not to talk in terms of the death of the Buddha as such, because as the tathagata ("One who had thus gone beyond"), he didn't identify with the previously mentioned expression that was subject to dissolution, i.e. death and decay. You think so, but "what-is" that I spoke of is regardless of ignorance or wisdom. Ignorance is of the mind...what-is is regardless of thought or the mind. It doesn't entirely surprise me seeing all this dismissed as merely mind-stuff, it's basically the charge I've seen levelled at AV, (that it's mostly just concerned with psychological stuff.) It's why the Buddhist's say AV and Buddhism aren't really compatible, and really the Dhamma went much further than all that. In the end you don't get to have your cake and eat it. So all said and done, I maintain my position on this, but I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I don't want to hijack the quotes thread. Basically, in this instance I see "what-is" as another case of misguided affirmationism. Just to be clear, my position is that beliefs are overrated, and that I'm speaking from a position of penetrating insight. "My position?" Uh oh. |
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Dec 23, 2017 9:15:32 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Dec 23, 2017 9:15:32 GMT -5
Dukkha isn't really something someone has. A brief and somewhat clumsy version of the story goes that, upon the final watch (his full enlightenment), the Buddha, having transmuted all kamma, was ready to transcend samsara and enter into paranibbana, but instead was moved to remain in order to pass on the perfect wisdom he had 'attained' so other beings may be freed from bondage. Anyway, as such, it wasn't really until some forty years later, upon the final dissolution of the aggregates (i.e. the localised mind-body expression that was the shakyamuni), that release from samsara, (to which dukkha is intrinsic), took place. During that interim period he did reside in a state of nibbana, a relatively blissful state, where the production of new kamma has ceased. This idea of 'liberation while still living in body' pops up from time to time but it's an incredibly tricky and nuanced notion, and despite the occasional claim to the contrary, no-one here has apprehended such a state. It's perhaps also worth mentioning that Buddhists specifically tend not to talk in terms of the death of the Buddha as such, because as the tathagata ("One who had thus gone beyond"), he didn't identify with the previously mentioned expression that was subject to dissolution, i.e. death and decay. It doesn't entirely surprise me seeing all this dismissed as merely mind-stuff, it's basically the charge I've seen levelled at AV, (that it's mostly just concerned with psychological stuff.) It's why the Buddhist's say AV and Buddhism aren't really compatible, and really the Dhamma went much further than all that. In the end you don't get to have your cake and eat it. So all said and done, I maintain my position on this, but I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I don't want to hijack the quotes thread. Basically, in this instance I see "what-is" as another case of misguided affirmationism. Just to be clear, my position is that beliefs are overrated, and that I'm speaking from a position of penetrating insight. "My position?" Uh oh. I don't purport to have transcended views right now, on the contrary, I recognise them as the nature of the beast. Being conscious of the situation goes a long way ... |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 23, 2017 10:28:02 GMT -5
I don't purport to have transcended views right now, on the contrary, I recognise them as the nature of the beast. Being conscious of the situation goes a long way ... FWIW, there's no person who could possibly have views, or transcend views, or recognize anything, or be conscious of anything, or go anywhere. Penetrating the illusion of selfhood reveals what lies beyond all such ideas. |
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Dec 23, 2017 10:50:12 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Dec 23, 2017 10:50:12 GMT -5
I don't purport to have transcended views right now, on the contrary, I recognise them as the nature of the beast. Being conscious of the situation goes a long way ... Penetrating the illusion of selfhood reveals what lies beyond all such ideas. That's just brown-bearing (an unfortunate side effect of affirmationism.) |
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Dec 24, 2017 10:20:43 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2017 10:20:43 GMT -5
"If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would be seen as it is, infinite." William Blake
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Dec 24, 2017 10:38:16 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2017 10:38:16 GMT -5
"Discovering the Infinite is paramount above all else." Bob Harwood
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Dec 24, 2017 10:39:13 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2017 10:39:13 GMT -5
"I saw the truth for fifteen seconds, and I became a servant for life." Kabir
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