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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2015 15:26:58 GMT -5
(...) So what is the role of ego/personality/cultural self/imaginary self in all this? Ego/etc. is a drain of energy. If one lives primarily through ego/etc., he or she can never accumulate the energy required for awakening, excuse me, for self-remembering. So, one has to "keep the balls in the air" via conscious efforts to such an extent that the energy entering the organism exceeds that exiting the organism, generally through the sieve that ego/personality/imaginary self, is. Working with attention saves energy, by working with awareness, one creates this finer quality of energy and likewise saves it. (...) What is "work with awareness"? Hey (little) zd, I can't specifically say, as these things are never written down. In 1976 I went to a meeting every week for six months before I was given the practices self-remembering and self-observation. I would probably never do otherwise for anyone else, minimally. There are various reasons for this, but basically the interior work is an oral tradition. However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. This is essentially ZD's ATA-T (you eventually notice that +T is an obstruction to noticing). I will add one thing, if you notice say the tension in your face, and later are otherwise occupied, do you ever notice the absence of awareness of what is always present?
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Post by zin on Jul 2, 2015 15:37:43 GMT -5
What is "work with awareness"? I can't specifically say, as these things are never written down. In 1976 I went to a meeting every week for six months before I was given the practices self-remembering and self-observation. I would probably never do otherwise for anyone else, minimally. There are various reasons for this, but basically the interior work is an oral tradition. However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. This is essentially ZD's ATA-T (you eventually notice that +T is an obstruction to noticing). I will add one thing, if you notice say the tension in your face, and later are otherwise occupied, do you ever notice the absence of awareness of what is always present? I don't notice the absence of awareness of body, I just become aware of it. (the body) But there must be a way to talk about this "work with awareness"??
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Post by zin on Jul 5, 2015 17:49:11 GMT -5
What is "work with awareness"? (...) However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. (...) Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also?
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Jul 5, 2015 22:06:42 GMT -5
(...) However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. (...) Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also? Not meaning to be stand in for Laughter but I'd say yes, notice thoughts and feelings also. How do you know you have a "feeling"? There's energy felt in the body together with words (thoughts) like "scared", "joy", etc etc. Look for feelings see what they are made of. Notice the minds tendency to name, comment, explain on the data recieved through the senses. Notice how there might be contractions in the body when something is percieved as threathening and notice the body opening to what's percieved as desirable or "good". It's fascinating to be aware of the machinery that is "you" You might also notice resistance to noticing. Let that be part of what you notice and then notice how you try to change, how you try not to resist, and so on. And be kind and gentle with yourself. In the end there's nowhere to go.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 6, 2015 10:38:07 GMT -5
(...) However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. (...) Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also? Yes, sure.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 14, 2019 21:57:33 GMT -5
Bearing in mind one name for the Gurdjieff teaching is the Work, and making conscious efforts is called work (on oneself), and the last sentence of my last post, and that post in general, "No work can be done in sleep" (the second state of consciousness), Gurdjieff. So one has to judge the value of "efforting", and the results, and what sleep is (the second state), and what it means to not-be asleep. (IOW, one comes to love and enjoy conscious efforts, and to such an extent that the results are simply a bonus). But of course you will still interpret all this from your own POV. I am going to ask about 'conscious efforts' (I haven't read this thread from the start this time). I don't know about any formal practice; neither zazen nor self-remembering. What I am reading nowadays about Gurdjieff's teaching focuses on harmonious working of three centers of man (intellectual center, feeling center, instinctive-moving center). It seems one just tries not to get lost in one of them - one tries to use all three as much as possible. Is that right?
I think the intellectual center brings the possibility of seeing; the body, doing; and the emotional center gives 'depth'. I don't know what brings them together exactly.. But the 'effort' there does not look like an effort of sitting at some place for hours.. I mean it is a normal activity, but not always possible due to abnormal habits. First paragraph. Gurdjieff taught that for each person one center predominates. When the moving or instinctive center predominates, this is man #1. If the heart/emotional center predominates, this is man #2. If the intellectual center predominates, this is man (or of course woman too), man #3. Work is to work toward balancing the centers. So yes, we should use our weaker centers, daily. I knew immediately my weakest center is the emotional center. Best way to work on emotional center is to mix with people. Also to get involved in some manner some art. But yes also, try not to become lost in the using of the center, (understanding what this means is a good start). A first primary goal is to work toward becoming a balanced man, man #4. Getting into 2nd paragraph, another thing is to use the appropriate center for it's appropriate work, this saves energy. Right work of the centers is somewhat expressed in the Chuang Tzu story of the cook, who went 19 years without having to sharpen his knife, cutting up thousands of oxen. Now...conscious efforts are not done with the centers, not thinking, not feeling/emotions, not bodily-actions, not sensations. zd's ATA-T is/can be a kind of conscious effort, but it is closer to preparatory work, it is sensing (which is preparatory work). Conscious efforts can take place simultaneously with the use of the centers, any time, any place, so yes, along with any normal activity. One other thing, feeling center can give another kind of knowledge, other than intellectual knowledge, (so your word 'depth' might apply). Your other points, the work is like building a ladder. You build the rungs (learn how to eventually answer your own questions). This is expressed, somewhat, in the Chuang Tzu story of the Wheelwright.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 8:38:12 GMT -5
I am going to ask about 'conscious efforts' (I haven't read this thread from the start this time). I don't know about any formal practice; neither zazen nor self-remembering. What I am reading nowadays about Gurdjieff's teaching focuses on harmonious working of three centers of man (intellectual center, feeling center, instinctive-moving center). It seems one just tries not to get lost in one of them - one tries to use all three as much as possible. Is that right?
I think the intellectual center brings the possibility of seeing; the body, doing; and the emotional center gives 'depth'. I don't know what brings them together exactly.. But the 'effort' there does not look like an effort of sitting at some place for hours.. I mean it is a normal activity, but not always possible due to abnormal habits. First paragraph. Gurdjieff taught that for each person one center predominates. When the moving or instinctive center predominates, this is man #1. If the heart/emotional center predominates, this is man #2. If the intellectual center predominates, this is man (or of course woman too), man #3. Work is to work toward balancing the centers. So yes, we should use our weaker centers, daily. I knew immediately my weakest center is the emotional center. Best way to work on emotional center is to mix with people. Also to get involved in some manner some art. But yes also, try not to become lost in the using of the center, (understanding what this means is a good start). A first primary goal is to work toward becoming a balanced man, man #4. Getting into 2nd paragraph, another thing is to use the appropriate center for it's appropriate work, this saves energy. Right work of the centers is somewhat expressed in the Chuang Tzu story of the cook, who went 19 years without having to sharpen his knife, cutting up thousands of oxen. Now...conscious efforts are not done with the centers, not thinking, not feeling/emotions, not bodily-actions, not sensations. zd's ATA-T is/can be a kind of conscious effort, but it is closer to preparatory work, it is sensing (which is preparatory work). Conscious efforts can take place simultaneously with the use of the centers, any time, any place, so yes, along with any normal activity. One other thing, feeling center can give another kind of knowledge, other than intellectual knowledge, (so your word 'depth' might apply). Your other points, the work is like building a ladder. You build the rungs (learn how to eventually answer your own questions). This is expressed, somewhat, in the Chuang Tzu story of the Wheelwright. My mother always said those who practice their art for the sake of something greater are missing the point. Life is an art form.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 15, 2019 8:55:42 GMT -5
First paragraph. Gurdjieff taught that for each person one center predominates. When the moving or instinctive center predominates, this is man #1. If the heart/emotional center predominates, this is man #2. If the intellectual center predominates, this is man (or of course woman too), man #3. Work is to work toward balancing the centers. So yes, we should use our weaker centers, daily. I knew immediately my weakest center is the emotional center. Best way to work on emotional center is to mix with people. Also to get involved in some manner some art. But yes also, try not to become lost in the using of the center, (understanding what this means is a good start). A first primary goal is to work toward becoming a balanced man, man #4. Getting into 2nd paragraph, another thing is to use the appropriate center for it's appropriate work, this saves energy. Right work of the centers is somewhat expressed in the Chuang Tzu story of the cook, who went 19 years without having to sharpen his knife, cutting up thousands of oxen. Now...conscious efforts are not done with the centers, not thinking, not feeling/emotions, not bodily-actions, not sensations. zd's ATA-T is/can be a kind of conscious effort, but it is closer to preparatory work, it is sensing (which is preparatory work). Conscious efforts can take place simultaneously with the use of the centers, any time, any place, so yes, along with any normal activity. One other thing, feeling center can give another kind of knowledge, other than intellectual knowledge, (so your word 'depth' might apply). Your other points, the work is like building a ladder. You build the rungs (learn how to eventually answer your own questions). This is expressed, somewhat, in the Chuang Tzu story of the Wheelwright. My mother always said those who practice their art for the sake of something greater are missing the point. Life is an art form. Yes. But sometimes can apply, "Two birds, one stone". (This does not mean multitasking).
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Post by zin on Sept 21, 2019 21:30:55 GMT -5
I am going to ask about 'conscious efforts' (I haven't read this thread from the start this time). I don't know about any formal practice; neither zazen nor self-remembering. What I am reading nowadays about Gurdjieff's teaching focuses on harmonious working of three centers of man (intellectual center, feeling center, instinctive-moving center). It seems one just tries not to get lost in one of them - one tries to use all three as much as possible. Is that right?
I think the intellectual center brings the possibility of seeing; the body, doing; and the emotional center gives 'depth'. I don't know what brings them together exactly.. But the 'effort' there does not look like an effort of sitting at some place for hours.. I mean it is a normal activity, but not always possible due to abnormal habits. .... Now...conscious efforts are not done with the centers, not thinking, not feeling/emotions, not bodily-actions, not sensations. zd's ATA-T is/can be a kind of conscious effort, but it is closer to preparatory work, it is sensing (which is preparatory work). Conscious efforts can take place simultaneously with the use of the centers, any time, any place, so yes, along with any normal activity. .... What about the 'higher centers'? Do they do anything? As I understand, a person can 'use' the lower centers, but I don't know how is it with the higher ones.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 22, 2019 8:30:05 GMT -5
.... Now...conscious efforts are not done with the centers, not thinking, not feeling/emotions, not bodily-actions, not sensations. zd's ATA-T is/can be a kind of conscious effort, but it is closer to preparatory work, it is sensing (which is preparatory work). Conscious efforts can take place simultaneously with the use of the centers, any time, any place, so yes, along with any normal activity. .... What about the 'higher centers'? Do they do anything? As I understand, a person can 'use' the lower centers, but I don't know how is it with the higher ones. The two higher centers are always functioning, in everyone. But we are not normally aware of their functioning. The higher emotional center is contacted through the emotional center, but our emotional center is so clogged with ~nasty~ emotions, these burn off a surplus of energy which has the possibility of being transformed into an energy which allows connection with the higher emotional center. One could say the whole of the Work is working toward being able to be connected to the higher centers. So work really begins with balancing the centers so that each center works with its own energy, thus saving energy, and transforming this energy to a finer quality which can connect to the higher centers. This is a process of learning, which begins with self-study.
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