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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2015 16:24:02 GMT -5
What, I replied immediately, only it took 23 minutes. I still think you can do better . I did a whole thread on this once, ATA-MT, Where are ~you~? Nobody really got the answer. When everybody got tired of the subject (44 pages) I began to give hint after hint, but still nobody really got it. I will give verification by another means. Does (little) zd's answer make sense to anyone else? What say ye? Just play with it a little, experiment, notice.
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Post by zin on Jul 2, 2015 16:27:00 GMT -5
I still think you can do better . I did a whole thread on this once, ATA-MT, Where are ~you~? Nobody really got the answer. When everybody got tired of the subject (44 pages) I began to give hint after hint, but still nobody really got it. I will give verification by another means. Does (little) zd's answer make sense to anyone else? What say ye? Just play with it a little, experiment, notice. Do I remind you of ZD?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2015 17:29:53 GMT -5
I did a whole thread on this once, ATA-MT, Where are ~you~? Nobody really got the answer. When everybody got tired of the subject (44 pages) I began to give hint after hint, but still nobody really got it. I will give verification by another means. Does (little) zd's answer make sense to anyone else? What say ye? Just play with it a little, experiment, notice. Do I remind you of ZD? In name only, zin darud.... :-( ...........or :-) ....... (not sure which)
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Post by zin on Jul 2, 2015 17:36:38 GMT -5
In name only, zin darud.... :-( ...........or :-) ....... (not sure which) I would've liked to give some lectures on SR! but I can't .
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Post by zin on Jul 5, 2015 17:49:11 GMT -5
What is "work with awareness"? (...) However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. (...) Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also?
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jazz
Full Member
Posts: 197
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Post by jazz on Jul 5, 2015 22:06:42 GMT -5
(...) However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. (...) Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also? Not meaning to be stand in for Laughter but I'd say yes, notice thoughts and feelings also. How do you know you have a "feeling"? There's energy felt in the body together with words (thoughts) like "scared", "joy", etc etc. Look for feelings see what they are made of. Notice the minds tendency to name, comment, explain on the data recieved through the senses. Notice how there might be contractions in the body when something is percieved as threathening and notice the body opening to what's percieved as desirable or "good". It's fascinating to be aware of the machinery that is "you" You might also notice resistance to noticing. Let that be part of what you notice and then notice how you try to change, how you try not to resist, and so on. And be kind and gentle with yourself. In the end there's nowhere to go.
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Post by zin on Jul 6, 2015 5:51:07 GMT -5
Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also? Not meaning to be stand in for Laughter but I'd say yes, notice thoughts and feelings also. How do you know you have a "feeling"? There's energy felt in the body together with words (thoughts) like "scared", "joy", etc etc. Look for feelings see what they are made of. Notice the minds tendency to name, comment, explain on the data recieved through the senses. Notice how there might be contractions in the body when something is percieved as threathening and notice the body opening to what's percieved as desirable or "good". It's fascinating to be aware of the machinery that is "you" You might also notice resistance to noticing. Let that be part of what you notice and then notice how you try to change, how you try not to resist, and so on. And be kind and gentle with yourself. In the end there's nowhere to go. Thanks! I remember you and Laughter were talking on these things on your Self improvement thread. My question here is more about, why does SDP call becoming more conscious as 'juggling'? And I may add one or two other questions later. Addition: 'Noticing' is a bit different from observation, right? Maybe I'm mainly focusing on 'bringing awareness' here, just the first moment of it. I am curious about its relation to 'self-remembering'.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 6, 2015 10:38:07 GMT -5
(...) However, there is what's called preparatory work. This can be given and can be written about, I was given this at my first meeting in March of 1976. It is called noticing, the noticing of sensations, the five senses. You can notice colors, the shapes of material objects, sounds, the tone of your own voice, your facial expression, your posture, tension in the body, your gestures, odors, tastes, touch. I have mentioned these here on ST's before. (...) Is this noticing (or any other thing!) for thoughts and feelings also? Yes, sure.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 6, 2015 11:03:40 GMT -5
Not meaning to be stand in for Laughter but I'd say yes, notice thoughts and feelings also. How do you know you have a "feeling"? There's energy felt in the body together with words (thoughts) like "scared", "joy", etc etc. Look for feelings see what they are made of. Notice the minds tendency to name, comment, explain on the data recieved through the senses. Notice how there might be contractions in the body when something is percieved as threathening and notice the body opening to what's percieved as desirable or "good". It's fascinating to be aware of the machinery that is "you" You might also notice resistance to noticing. Let that be part of what you notice and then notice how you try to change, how you try not to resist, and so on. And be kind and gentle with yourself. In the end there's nowhere to go. Thanks! I remember you and Laughter were talking on these things on your Self improvement thread. My question here is more about, why does SDP call becoming more conscious as 'juggling'? And I may add one or two other questions later. Addition: 'Noticing' is a bit different from observation, right? Maybe I'm mainly focusing on 'bringing awareness' here, just the first moment of it. I am curious about its relation to 'self-remembering'. It is not really an analogy, not really a metaphor. I tried to explain in the OP. You have to come to see, in yourself, when you are less conscious, when more conscious. Less conscious, you are operating mechanically on automatic pilot. This, is what is effortless. Juggling, in and of itself, has nothing to do with being more conscious. Juggling or learning to juggle can take place with only mechanical efforts. But I was trying to point out that it does require effort. The hands have to be active, the eyes. Likewise, being more conscious has to be active. This activeness has nothing to do with self-reflective thought, nothing to do with self-as-ego. It is not of a split-mind, because the 'what' that is conscious is not an intellectual capacity. Now, it's talked about in various other ways by other people here, and I've quoted numerous sources which talk about it. Maybe the best way talked about here is awareness of awareness. You can sit in a chair, and be aware. You hear the TV, noise of cooking in the kitchen, the jet roar by outside. These only require ordinary consciousness. But you can sit in a chair, and be aware of sitting in the chair. This is not a passive awareness, it cannot be done on auto-pilot. This is all I'm trying to say. The thread title probably should have been, Being more conscious is like learning to juggle. Because if you know how to juggle, you can do it unconsciously, by formed habit, by muscle memory. Then you can do it passively. But you can never become more conscious, passively, you can never be more conscious, unconsciously. What does learning to juggle require? I will try to answer your full post later.
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Post by zin on Jul 6, 2015 15:21:24 GMT -5
Thanks! I remember you and Laughter were talking on these things on your Self improvement thread. My question here is more about, why does SDP call becoming more conscious as 'juggling'? And I may add one or two other questions later. Addition: 'Noticing' is a bit different from observation, right? Maybe I'm mainly focusing on 'bringing awareness' here, just the first moment of it. I am curious about its relation to 'self-remembering'. (...) I will try to answer your full post later. OK, will be appreciated!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 6, 2015 18:32:03 GMT -5
Not meaning to be stand in for Laughter but I'd say yes, notice thoughts and feelings also. How do you know you have a "feeling"? There's energy felt in the body together with words (thoughts) like "scared", "joy", etc etc. Look for feelings see what they are made of. Notice the minds tendency to name, comment, explain on the data recieved through the senses. Notice how there might be contractions in the body when something is percieved as threathening and notice the body opening to what's percieved as desirable or "good". It's fascinating to be aware of the machinery that is "you" You might also notice resistance to noticing. Let that be part of what you notice and then notice how you try to change, how you try not to resist, and so on. And be kind and gentle with yourself. In the end there's nowhere to go. Thanks! I remember you and Laughter were talking on these things on your Self improvement thread. My question here is more about, why does SDP call becoming more conscious as 'juggling'? And I may add one or two other questions later. Addition: 'Noticing' is a bit different from observation, right? Maybe I'm mainly focusing on 'bringing awareness' here, just the first moment of it. I am curious about its relation to 'self-remembering'. OK, I got you latest post. .....continued: Yes, noticing is different from self-observation. Noticing is mostly noticing the exterior world (what's outside the 'skin'). Some weeks ago I gave the seven requirements for correct self-observation. One of these was, limited to the field of the subject. So self-observation is observation of the functions, instinctive (sensations), moving (learned bodily movements), emotional/feeling, intellectual. It is done with voluntary attention. Noticing is done with interested attention. But strictly speaking, there is this difference between noticing the instinctive center (mostly the five senses) and observing the moving center, the feeling/emotional center and the intellectual center. Why? Because the contents of the three latter centers is what constitutes the personality, which I have also called ego/imaginary self/cultural self/false self and a few more things. The contents of the centers are learned, versus the instinctive center, which we are born with, no learning necessary. self-remembering is different. It is done with awareness (or saying the same, consciousness, the terms self-awareness, self-consciousness and self-remembering are equated). I really cannot make a permanent record of much more. ......but you can ask your other questions........
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Post by zin on Jul 7, 2015 16:33:44 GMT -5
Thanks! I remember you and Laughter were talking on these things on your Self improvement thread. My question here is more about, why does SDP call becoming more conscious as 'juggling'? And I may add one or two other questions later. Addition: 'Noticing' is a bit different from observation, right? Maybe I'm mainly focusing on 'bringing awareness' here, just the first moment of it. I am curious about its relation to 'self-remembering'. OK, I got you latest post. .....continued: Yes, noticing is different from self-observation. Noticing is mostly noticing the exterior world (what's outside the 'skin'). Some weeks ago I gave the seven requirements for correct self-observation. One of these was, limited to the field of the subject. So self-observation is observation of the functions, instinctive (sensations), moving (learned bodily movements), emotional/feeling, intellectual. It is done with voluntary attention. Noticing is done with interested attention. But strictly speaking, there is this difference between noticing the instinctive center (mostly the five senses) and observing the moving center, the feeling/emotional center and the intellectual center. Why? Because the contents of the three latter centers is what constitutes the personality, which I have also called ego/imaginary self/cultural self/false self and a few more things. The contents of the centers are learned, versus the instinctive center, which we are born with, no learning necessary. self-remembering is different. It is done with awareness (or saying the same, consciousness, the terms self-awareness, self-consciousness and self-remembering are equated). I really cannot make a permanent record of much more. ......but you can ask your other questions........ from your previous post: Maybe the best way talked about here is awareness of awareness. You can sit in a chair, and be aware. You hear the TV, noise of cooking in the kitchen, the jet roar by outside. These only require ordinary consciousness. But you can sit in a chair, and be aware of sitting in the chair. This is not a passive awareness, it cannot be done on auto-pilot. This is all I'm trying to say. The thread title probably should have been, Being more conscious is like learning to juggle. Because if you know how to juggle, you can do it unconsciously, by formed habit, by muscle memory. Then you can do it passively. But you can never become more conscious, passively, you can never be more conscious, unconsciously. What does learning to juggle require? Thanks for this one, too! When I look at them together I see that what I want to get to is something related to the *whole of oneself*. The things that are told here, noticing and observation, yes as you say they are limited to specifically chosen things. And the only thing I remember from Gurdjieff that is related to the whole and also is related to self-remembering is "full-sensing of the whole of myself (...) during (...) self-remembering"... Is there anything else like that? Also for me there is a curious situation there, because there is a kind of two-ness in this state, namely, I sense the whole of myself, I know myself from the inside, but at the same time I know I am not it. Is this split mindedness? Anyway. The question at the end, "What does learning to juggle require?": it requires attention. But attention is not the answer to my wholeness problem (or I am horribly nonsensing). At least 'directed attention' is not the answer, it is again limited to where it is directed to. I only understand that one has to know where it is, there isn't anything else on my mind. (I guess there is not much that can be said upon such a post .. so please say whatever you can about the wholeness thing)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 7, 2015 18:13:16 GMT -5
OK, I got you latest post. .....continued: Yes, noticing is different from self-observation. Noticing is mostly noticing the exterior world (what's outside the 'skin'). Some weeks ago I gave the seven requirements for correct self-observation. One of these was, limited to the field of the subject. So self-observation is observation of the functions, instinctive (sensations), moving (learned bodily movements), emotional/feeling, intellectual. It is done with voluntary attention. Noticing is done with interested attention. But strictly speaking, there is this difference between noticing the instinctive center (mostly the five senses) and observing the moving center, the feeling/emotional center and the intellectual center. Why? Because the contents of the three latter centers is what constitutes the personality, which I have also called ego/imaginary self/cultural self/false self and a few more things. The contents of the centers are learned, versus the instinctive center, which we are born with, no learning necessary. self-remembering is different. It is done with awareness (or saying the same, consciousness, the terms self-awareness, self-consciousness and self-remembering are equated). I really cannot make a permanent record of much more. ......but you can ask your other questions........ from your previous post: Maybe the best way talked about here is awareness of awareness. You can sit in a chair, and be aware. You hear the TV, noise of cooking in the kitchen, the jet roar by outside. These only require ordinary consciousness. But you can sit in a chair, and be aware of sitting in the chair. This is not a passive awareness, it cannot be done on auto-pilot. This is all I'm trying to say. The thread title probably should have been, Being more conscious is like learning to juggle. Because if you know how to juggle, you can do it unconsciously, by formed habit, by muscle memory. Then you can do it passively. But you can never become more conscious, passively, you can never be more conscious, unconsciously. What does learning to juggle require? Thanks for this one, too! When I look at them together I see that what I want to get to is something related to the *whole of oneself*. The things that are told here, noticing and observation, yes as you say they are limited to specifically chosen things. And the only thing I remember from Gurdjieff that is related to the whole and also is related to self-remembering is "full-sensing of the whole of myself (...) during (...) self-remembering"... Is there anything else like that? Also for me there is a curious situation there, because there is a kind of two-ness in this state, namely, I sense the whole of myself, I know myself from the inside, but at the same time I know I am not it. Is this split mindedness? Anyway. The question at the end, "What does learning to juggle require?": it requires attention. But attention is not the answer to my wholeness problem (or I am horribly nonsensing). At least 'directed attention' is not the answer, it is again limited to where it is directed to. I only understand that one has to know where it is, there isn't anything else on my mind. (I guess there is not much that can be said upon such a post .. so please say whatever you can about the wholeness thing) As for the "curious situation", we don't ever try to analyze, just keep trying what you are trying, experiment, explore. You will probably keep shifting from mind to the trying, just know that the effort involved is not intellectual in any way. Mind cannot help trying to enter, so yes, because of this there will be the split mindedness. But that is incorrect effort......that is, when the mind jumps in. When understanding comes, it doesn't come from the intellectual center. The last paragraph. Yes, right answer, learning to juggle requires attention. (I'm going to presume you actually tried ). And right again, attention is not the answer to the wholeness problem.
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Post by zin on Jul 8, 2015 4:39:32 GMT -5
Thanks for this one, too! When I look at them together I see that what I want to get to is something related to the *whole of oneself*. The things that are told here, noticing and observation, yes as you say they are limited to specifically chosen things. And the only thing I remember from Gurdjieff that is related to the whole and also is related to self-remembering is "full-sensing of the whole of myself (...) during (...) self-remembering"... Is there anything else like that? Also for me there is a curious situation there, because there is a kind of two-ness in this state, namely, I sense the whole of myself, I know myself from the inside, but at the same time I know I am not it. Is this split mindedness? Anyway. The question at the end, "What does learning to juggle require?": it requires attention. But attention is not the answer to my wholeness problem (or I am horribly nonsensing). At least 'directed attention' is not the answer, it is again limited to where it is directed to. I only understand that one has to know where it is, there isn't anything else on my mind. (I guess there is not much that can be said upon such a post .. so please say whatever you can about the wholeness thing) I will say one thing.....that in relation to other things I have said, when Gurdjieff says: "full sensing of the whole of myself (...) during (...) self-remembering", for one who has come through the tradition, that person knows he is saying something else by this. As for the "curious situation", we don't ever try to analyze, just keep trying what you are trying, experiment, explore. You will probably keep shifting from mind to the trying, just know that the effort involved is not intellectual in any way. Mind cannot help trying to enter, so yes, because of this there will be the split mindedness. But that is incorrect effort......that is, when the mind jumps in. When understanding comes, it doesn't come from the intellectual center. The last paragraph. Yes, right answer, learning to juggle requires attention. (I'm going to presume you actually tried ). And right again, attention is not the answer to the wholeness problem. Attention involves a particular thing, like a spot light. Awareness is like a flood light, taking in wholeness. Well, you don't say much, again! And no I haven't tried juggling, I have some foresight . Yesterday I was sitting at the seaside watching something, turned my head right and saw these peeps.. we looked at each other for about fifteen minutes.. presently that's all.. Thanks for all you've written.
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2015 23:14:43 GMT -5
Thanks, sdp. I appreciate the thorough answer. So now I'm curious about this: Has your experience shown you that what you've written is true or is it that these explanations resonate with you (or something else)? In other words, on what do you base the fact that these are your views? Hey quinn, I've read tons of New Age and all kinds of metaphysical goobledygook. I pretty-much hated Gurdjieff for years, lots of reasons. If not for some personal experience, all that I've written here would just be more goobledygook, and would have been left behind years ago. So, all that has virtually nothing to do with any type of intellectual resonance. One reason I don't discuss personal experience, specifically, is I don't want to be a punching bag, but that's really a minor reason. The number one principle I was taught from day one is that you must verify what's taught. I read In Search of the Miraculous in March of 1976 and it answered many questions I already had, mostly the why of many experiences even from an early age. The answer is experience. You move from theory to practice to experience which leads to further theory, further practice and on and on. So you've experienced crystallization of the second body and acquired a soul through your efforts and such?
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