enlightenment?

[robert]

is everyone actually seeking enlightenment? and yes i have read all of the writers who say that it does not exist yet i understand it to mean that it does not exist for any individual because the very concept of individuality ceases upon enlightenment. so is anyone actually seeking the source?

[zendancer]

Robert: Yes, I suspect that most people on this website are either seeking the source or have found the source. I can't imagine why anyone would be here otherwise. What are your thoughts?

[robert]

i do not think that most people know what enlightenment is.

[Peter]

You're looking for a definition?

I don't think anyone really knows until they get there.

What do you think it is?

Cheers,
Peter

[robert]

well, as usual i went about this bassackward and i apologize i am robert. i think that the only definition that makes any sense is abiding non-dual awareness. the rest seem sort of fantasy like.

[zendancer]

Hi Robert. Welcome to the board. You're correct; most people don't know what enlightenment is, but what choice to they have? Until they get to peek behind the curtain, all they have are ideas. Like Peter says, they won't know until they get there.

People sometimes have dramatic kensho experiences during which they disappear as observers and experience unity consciousness. This is called "seeing into one's true nature," but they almost always come back to a dualistic perspective. We can say that they have had an enlightenment experience, but are they enlightened? Hardly. They usually still feel as if they are separate entities confronting an externalized reality, and they usually continue to search for some sort of ultimate state of being that will conform to their ideas. Some people think they will find bliss. Other people think that all of their problems will disappear. Behind all of their searches is the idea that they are entities that need to get something. A few of them, if they are lucky, eventually realize that they are not who and what they thought they were. They see through the illusion of selfhood completely and discover the truth. Zen calls this experience "satori," or final enlightenment. But then what happens? Most of them go right on living their lives in much the same way as before with two major differences; they are no longer seeking anything, and they no longer live under the illusion that they have any self-existence. They have discovered their oneness with what is.

After their realization, some of them become teachers, but many of them don't. Some of them live in monastic communities, remain unmarried, spend a lot of time in meditation, and live relatively simple lives (Tibetan or Carthusian monks, for example). Others work in the business world, have families, don't have time to meditate very often, and lead lives that are relatively complex. Clearly, the lives of people who have no obligations and spend huge amounts of time in contemplation will look differently than people who teach in a university setting, perform on TV, or run a business. If you get a chance, read the book, "Everyday Enlightenment." It gives a good sense of how enlightenment manifests in a wide variety of lifestyles.

As a definition of enlightenment, "abiding in non-dual awareness," is a great idea, but it is just an idea. In actuality the enlightened person is aware of both the relative and the absolute, understands and perceives the difference, and allows the mind to function freely. Such a person abides in emptiness, or suchness, in a state of being that is beyond the power of the mind to imagine.

So, how about you? Are you searching for enlightenment or just thinking about searching for it?

[lightmystic]

Yep, abiding nondual Awareness is what it is.

And nondual, means nondual. There is not two. The relative (which some consider fantasy) is not in any way separate from the Absolute (the unchanging reality). They are the same thing.

Oct 29, 2009 6:39:55 GMT -5 @robert said:

well, as usual i went about this bassackward and i apologize i am robert. i think that the only definition that makes any sense is abiding non-dual awareness. the rest seem sort of fantasy like.

[robert]

until recently i must admit that i was on a misguided path. yet i was struck by the idea that it all seemed so complicated and i wondered why? what was i doing incorrectly or misunderstanding? but then i returned to nisargadatta's I AM THAT. i reread and began the I AM practice in earnest trying to stay focused on the simple statement as much as possible. then i read his Consciousness and the Absolute. and it really struck a chord. so i would say that i have begun to understand the path as well as its all inclusive truth.

[zendancer]

Robert: Yes, Nisargadatta's practice works as well as anything to bring the mind to one-pointedness. Ramana's "Who am I?" works the same way, as does focusing on seeing or hearing. However, after re-reading the last few lines of my last post, I realized that I made enlightenment sound a bit too mysterious. Living without the illusion of a personal self is just living your ordinary everyday life without imagining that anything is separate or imagining that "you" exist. It doesn't even matter if you act AS IF you exist separately because underneath it all is a connectedness and realization of essential oneness that never goes away.

In the book "Everyday Enlightenment" there is high-powered business guy, named "C," who says that periodically he falls back into the old habit of being C. He describes what happened when his son was in a terrible auto accident. As soon as he learned of the accident, he fell back into being a father worried about his son, and he rushed to the hospital to find out how bad it was. He got there and found that his son was alive and the doctors were busy working on him. Then he sunk inward, reconnected with his core, saw everything from a more cosmic perspective, and felt grateful that the docs were doing their best. He, like one or two others in the book, describes what it was like to learn of the death of someone close to them. In those cases there was a matter-of-fact acceptance of what had happened and an underlying knowledge that regardless of particular events the universe is always operating perfectly.

The reason that it is so hard to communicate anything meaningful about the awakened state is that enlightened people often respond so differently to what life presents them with. Here are two true stories and some koans that deal with this issue:

The wife of an enlightened guy died. He seemed utterly unconcerned at her funeral, and when someone asked him why he wasn't expressing any grief, he replied, "Why should I? She hasn't gone anywhere."

In contrast to this, an enlightened woman's granddaughter died. The woman was sobbing so much at the funeral that someone said to her, "You're supposed to be enlightened. Why are you carrying on like this?" She replied, "Do you understand how important my tears are? They are greater than all the sutras, all the words of the patriarchs, and all possible ceremonies. When my granddaughter hears me crying, she will enter Nirvana." Then she shouted to all the visitors, "Do you understand this?" No one understood. (This story is reported in Zen Master Seung Sahn's book--edited by Stephen Mitchell-- "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha."

There are several possible koans that these stories pose. First, were the responses of the man and woman the same or different? Second, was their understanding the same or different? Third, what did the grandmother mean by her statement that her granddaughter would hear her crying and enter Nirvana? These questions cannot be answered using the intellect.

The non-dual path can involve a lot more than simply waking up from the dream of personal selfhood (although that is the primary goal for most people). It can involve seeing through many other common illusions, finding peace and contentment in a world that often seems mad, and becoming free from the domination of mind. Cheers.

[robert]

thank you.

[lightmystic]

Right, it's actually TOO simple, and we've been resisting it. It's something more fundamental than the mind, it is that which gives rise to the mind and contains the mind. So the mind cannot contain it. It can only be known directly, and pointed to with words. No combination of finger pointing or movements can be equivalent to the moon, and the moon cannot be given directly (i.e. I cannot "hand" you the moon), but if one can look at what those movements and pointings are pointing to, THEN one has a real chance of finding where it has been ignored. It's, again, TOO simple. It's the context within which all perception takes place.

It's that moment in between thoughts where nothing is recognized, but perception hasn't gone anywhere.

It's a fish looking for water.

So, a great principle that was really useful while searching for this stuff was that it's always less, not more. Less in the way, something removed, so that vision is clearer. It's always simpler, more natural, less clinging....

I hope you see what I mean....

Oct 29, 2009 12:12:47 GMT -5 @robert said:

until recently i must admit that i was on a misguided path. yet i was struck by the idea that it all seemed so complicated and i wondered why? what was i doing incorrectly or misunderstanding? but then i returned to nisargadatta's I AM THAT. i reread and began the I AM practice in earnest trying to stay focused on the simple statement as much as possible. then i read his Consciousness and the Absolute. and it really struck a chord. so i would say that i have begun to understand the path as well as its all inclusive truth.

[robert]

i do see the too simple, the most fundamental, to quote another, " that which can be divided no further" . as i said i can see it but as far as direct experience is that even possible. unity consciousness is that it is that the goal? as you said above they can have the experience but they almost always come back. is there a further or would that call for a collapse, as in a singularity, from which the individual never returns or would even want to return?

[zendancer1]

Robert: Yes, it is possible. The reason that so many keep seeking after having unity conscious experiences is that they equate miraculous experiences with enlightenment. They don't yet realize that their ordinary everyday experiences are part of the same continuum that contains the unusual stuff. Eventually, a lot of seekers find what they're looking for and realize that all of their experiences are part of the same oneness. Once they see this, and also realize that they are one-with that oneness, they get to relax. Once they see this, they realize that there is no going or returning. They realize that they have always been THAT. There is no one who could go or return because there is nothing separate in THAT.

[robert]

well said. the true realization is that what we call extraordinary is actually just another part of the unity, and my path as seeker is an individual path that is mearly a finite part of an infinite IS.

[astenny]

I was watching a trailer for an upcoming movie where the director went around the world asking people "What is God?" Much like enlightenment, we really cannot answer. I can say it is this, or that, or the other thing. In truth it is all those things, it is not all those things, and it is so much more.

We are all on our own journeys, and each path we take is different from the one who may be standing right next to us. Welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your stay.