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Post by ventura23 on Nov 19, 2009 12:58:12 GMT -5
Hello
I thought this site was on the teachings of Vernon Howard and I don't see the similarity.
Thank you.
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Post by dramos on Nov 19, 2009 15:41:59 GMT -5
Hello Ventura, what was it you were looking to find?  |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 19, 2009 18:24:44 GMT -5
Ventura: I spent an hour or so reading about Vernon Howard on the internet, and he seems to be another American original in the vein of Richard Rose. From what I could tell, without buying and reading his books, he seems to be talking about the same thing that everyone on this site is talking about--non-duality. How do you understand Howard's teaching and what do you think he is pointing to? Some people seem to use his teachings like a formula to have a better life and get rid of their problems. Is that what you're looking for?
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Post by question on Nov 19, 2009 22:43:02 GMT -5
Question: The reason various masters refer to inanimate objects as part of cosmic consciousness is because they see that there is no separation within "what is." They have a direct experience that Reality is unified and alive. If I am conscious, then everything is part of that field of consciousness. If oneness is alive, then all things are part of that aliveness. This is why some spiritual masters have said things like, "Every grain of sand is endlessly preaching the dharma." Sometimes they say those sorts of things to shock students into realization, but what they are saying is literally true. Alan Watts once wrote that if aliens landed on earth six billion years ago, they might have concluded that earth was a lifeless hunk of rock, but if they came back today, they would say, "Oh, we were wrong; this was a peopling rock." Consciousness extends out through Creation. There is no "end point" of Consciousness. The mind Creates end points for ideas and such, and so there can be the appearance of a separate world in which to interact in, but even those thoughts that divide ARE it. They appear within the same Awareness. When we identify with a individual, then we assume that our Consciousness is localized, and that closes us off to see anything that could not be experienced by a localized "person". When the realization is that we are not individualized, then our Consciousness is seen as the non-localized thing that it really is. And it extends outward to infinity. And there is no point in between any perception or conception that our Awareness does not permeate. Again, the mind may not grasp all of it, but it is all within our Awareness anyway. Eventually, the realization is that there is nothing separate, and nothing other than Consciousness. That means, in other words, that there is nothing separate than, or different from, the process of perceiving. All "objects" perceived, along with all "subjects" perceiving are actually just that same continuous, unbroken process of perception. And the very thing which makes them appear distinct - the mind (thoughts) - ARE that exact same process of perception. Do you see what I'm saying? If not, what is unclear? Thanks guys, now I'm totally confused.   Ok so let me see if I understand you correctly: Zendancer says that consciousness is one of many expressions of THAT? And Lightmystic says that it's specifically consciousness that is THAT? Lightmystic, I simply can't believe you. I've never in my life consciously experienced something, that I couldn't categorize as a perception constructed by my brain. Not even consciousness itself. If there is consciousness here where I am, then it is one that goes away when I sleep deeply. Consciosness is the last stop that I know of, and I know that what I'm referring to, when I say "consciousness", isn't permanent. So it's not consciousness that I'm looking for. I don't know where else to look, and I don't know what I'm looking for. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 20, 2009 0:26:20 GMT -5
Question: Wait a minute. Where did I say that consciousness is one of many expressions of THAT? I said (in so many words) that there is only one thing in the universe (that is not a thing) and it is a unified whole. That wholeness is what sees your thoughts (the internal world). That wholeness also looks out of your eyes at the external world. That wholeness is all there is. Everything (every thing) else is an illusion. You are always one-with that wholeness, but you can use your intellect to imagine that you are separate. Enlightenment is seeing through the intellectually-generated illusion of separateness.
You can't reason your way to a direct realization of this. However, if you don't know where to look and you don;t know what you're looking for, that's good. It means that you have a beginner's mind, and that is the jumping off point into the unknown. That means that you have a don't-know mind. This is excellent because what both Lightmystic and I are talking about and pointing to can't be known with the mind. It comes through the body, as if the body, itself, has some sort of a direct downlink to God. This is why Adyashanti said that enlightenment comes from the neck down. I can tell you that when I had an initial kensho experience, it felt as if some unknown organ of perception had become activated. What I perceived through the body was infinite, beyond time and space, and beyond the mind's power to grasp. I knew that what I was experiencing was absolute and that everything appears and disappears within THAT. THAT is what is looking out of the eyes of every living thing. It will still be here even if every living thing in the universe dies. It is the only thing that is ever here because that's all there is, and there is nothing separate from THAT. Some people call it "God," but there is no adequate word for it.
Rather than continuing to think about this, try some feeling exercises instead. Nisargadatta spent three years trying to feel the sense of "I am" and woke up. Other people have dropped into unity-consciousness by trying to feel their breathing. Still others have concentrated on feeling their bodies as they moved through their daily activities. Feeling can take us out of our heads and connect us with the body in a more intimate way. Notice that if you try to feel your breathing or your body, your thoughts will instantly stop. Give it a try and experiment with it.
One small glimpse of the Absolute will show you that the Absolute is always here and that you are always one-with THAT. This is why people who wake up never worry about dying. They have discovered that they are one-with THAT which never dies. Who I am and who you are is simultaneously looking out of the eyes of a trillion life forms. When these bodies die, we/IT will still be looking, but through other eyes. Every minute billions of creatures are born and die but only one thing is looking out of all of those eyes. There is no other.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 20, 2009 13:10:05 GMT -5
Question, First of all, you should never just believe me. You should question me and continue looking until you verify for yourself one way or the other. That said, what is it that consciously experiences things? That consciousness never changes....the thoughts, the person identified with, etc. may change. But those are just more things that appear within your own Awareness. Even feelings and ideas of individuality are just more things that impersonally appear within your Awareness. That Awareness is what notices. Anything that changes happens WITHIN the noticing. You must see that...yes? From there, it's just recognizing that the noticing is not separate from the "objects" that are noticed. Perception extends all the way out and encompasses. Of course, ideas/assumptions of separateness can get in the way of that. And fear of annihilation can get in the way of really looking openly at the lack of separateness, and so it can be tricky. But the key is to keep undoing, and to keep feeling into something until you can 100% for sure verify it or disprove it one way or the other. And then we can talk about that, because that can be very useful. I would suggest that consciousness doesn't actually go anywhere when you sleep. It's just that the mind shuts off, so there is no content to be conscious of....There is a continuity that goes on even during deep sleep. How do you know you slept? There is a subtle recognition of sleep that's not based purely on inferences...That continuity is so natural that it's overlooked. Like trying to point out water to a fish. But it IS there.... It's very easy to associate consciousness with the mind and thoughts and such. But the mind is actually contained by consciousness. The mind is just another thing that appears within consciousness. When the mind goes, consciousness remains, even if it cannot recognize that because there is no mind to have the "recognizing thoughts." ZD and I are not saying different things, so it's become koan to crack, pointing at the same thing from two different directions. Consciousness, I will suggest, IS what you are looking for. But it's the realization of what your own Consciousness really is that's useful, not ideas about what it is. Because, based on limited ideas of what it is, it's really not useful. But it's the Awareness at the most basic level that reveals that things never were separate. Not putting SO much stock in the mind all the time shows the fallacy of Creation itself. And Consciousness is recognized to be the only thing stable, ever lasting, and all pervading....And that brings so much peace, safety, connectedness, and appreciation.... Lightmystic, I simply can't believe you. I've never in my life consciously experienced something, that I couldn't categorize as a perception constructed by my brain. Not even consciousness itself. If there is consciousness here where I am, then it is one that goes away when I sleep deeply. Consciosness is the last stop that I know of, and I know that what I'm referring to, when I say "consciousness", isn't permanent. So it's not consciousness that I'm looking for. I don't know where else to look, and I don't know what I'm looking for. |
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Post by Zendancer1 on Nov 20, 2009 17:28:38 GMT -5
Question: I agree with what LM wrote in the preceding post. I would add that during samadhi there is pure awareness with no content whatsoever (body and mind have fallen off). Awareness is therefore primary and unchanging. It is present whether or not there is any content.
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