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Post by japhy on Feb 20, 2015 16:32:52 GMT -5
I don't live interconnectedness and isolation as opposites... 'Appearances' issue is a big thing for me, I don't even know if its definition changes from one belief system to another. And, all right, no realization Ahhh, I'm no judge of realization. I'm just a guest in that parlor anyway, as it's a word I don't tend to use first. The distinction between feeling connected and an absence of separation might sound like a linguistic subtlety but it's not, and it's directly related to the difference between a monism and not two. This isn't to say that feeling connected isn't a good thing or that isolation has to inevitably result from it. There do seem to be degrees of how in touch we are with our sense of being, and at the core of that is what is meant by the pointer of the absence of separation. Generally speaking, the more grounded we are, the less extreme our moods will be, and extremity of mood is relatable to dichotomies similar to isolation/connectedness. "Appearence" is a radical term, yes. I have the feeling that we sometimes hold a certain position. "I have to do it alone." And then we see: It is not true. Now mind jumps in and says "Hey, if it is not true, the opposite must be true." We live the other position and one day we might see: It's not true either. Of course this is a very raw sketch, but I believe at times mind overreacts to an realization and obscures it :-D.
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Post by laughter on Feb 20, 2015 16:39:40 GMT -5
Ahhh, I'm no judge of realization. I'm just a guest in that parlor anyway, as it's a word I don't tend to use first. The distinction between feeling connected and an absence of separation might sound like a linguistic subtlety but it's not, and it's directly related to the difference between a monism and not two. Feeling connected---> monism? Yes, I understand.. I mean, the 'it is not a linguistic subtlety' part. But after here (above) I got lost Because, for me "pointer" is also a radical term. What can be a pointer of absence of separation? The notion of absence can play a subtle trick with the mind but that's just an opportunity. Absence of separation doesn't mean that we're the same person or all of the same mind, and it isn't a denial that there is the appearance of all sorts of boundaries. It is, however, a suggestion about any sort of alienation or estrangement that we might have embodied at one time or another. It's referred to as a pointer because it's not something that the thinking rational mind can grasp or that even directly translates into any feeling.
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Post by zin on Feb 20, 2015 16:48:18 GMT -5
.... Because, for me "pointer" is also a radical term. What can be a pointer of absence of separation? The notion of absence can play a subtle trick with the mind but that's just an opportunity. Absence of separation doesn't mean that we're the same person or all of the same mind, and it isn't a denial that there is the appearance of all sorts of boundaries. It is, however, a suggestion about any sort of alienation or estrangement that we might have embodied at one time or another. It's referred to as a pointer because it's not something that the thinking rational mind can grasp or that even directly translates into any feeling. What do you mean by suggestion here? What does it say about estragement or alienation? Does it say they are wrong, for example? This is really like Chinese to me (thanks for telling immediately!)
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Post by laughter on Feb 20, 2015 16:48:51 GMT -5
I believe at times mind overreacts to an realization and obscures it :-D. From my own experience, I can directly relate to this particular idea, yes. Generally speaking, assumptions, conclusions, logical structures ... essentially, any building block of a conceptual model, will obscure.
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Post by zin on Feb 20, 2015 16:56:56 GMT -5
Ahhh, I'm no judge of realization. I'm just a guest in that parlor anyway, as it's a word I don't tend to use first. The distinction between feeling connected and an absence of separation might sound like a linguistic subtlety but it's not, and it's directly related to the difference between a monism and not two. This isn't to say that feeling connected isn't a good thing or that isolation has to inevitably result from it. There do seem to be degrees of how in touch we are with our sense of being, and at the core of that is what is meant by the pointer of the absence of separation. Generally speaking, the more grounded we are, the less extreme our moods will be, and extremity of mood is relatable to dichotomies similar to isolation/connectedness. "Appearence" is a radical term, yes. I have the feeling that we sometimes hold a certain position. "I have to do it alone." And then we see: It is not true. Now mind jumps in and says "Hey, if it is not true, the opposite must be true." We live the other position and one day we might see: It's not true either. Of course this is a very raw sketch, but I believe at times mind overreacts to an realization and obscures it :-D. I can't relate to the realization part but I know the running from one thing to the other, part. Even in one hour things can change twice. Many many times I've asked myself "HOW can it be that things feel exactly the opposite?".. And *important things* (feel the opposite), mind you.. I wonder if there is a way to remember (the previous feeling).
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Post by japhy on Feb 20, 2015 17:22:38 GMT -5
I can't relate to the realization part but I know the running from one thing to the other, part. Even in one hour things can change twice. Many many times I've asked myself "HOW can it be that things feel exactly the opposite?".. And *important things* (feel the opposite), mind you.. I wonder if there is a way to remember (the previous feeling). One can remember the feeling, but one can not experience it, if it is not there. I also experience this monkey mind very strongly-. I can't change it, so I have relaxed a bit into the position of watching.
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Post by laughter on Feb 20, 2015 17:25:54 GMT -5
The notion of absence can play a subtle trick with the mind but that's just an opportunity. Absence of separation doesn't mean that we're the same person or all of the same mind, and it isn't a denial that there is the appearance of all sorts of boundaries. It is, however, a suggestion about any sort of alienation or estrangement that we might have embodied at one time or another. It's referred to as a pointer because it's not something that the thinking rational mind can grasp or that even directly translates into any feeling. What do you mean by suggestion here? What does it say about estragement or alienation? Does it say they are wrong, for example? This is really like Chinese to me (thanks for telling immediately!) Well they happen, and like any other negative emotion they are evidence of a sense of separateness. An artifact of a wall between what we take ourselves to be -- what it is that is "me" -- and everything that's not that. What is it that would name them "wrong" though? If someone cuts me off in traffic or gets angry 'cause I very obviously did a proper lane change then there might be a reaction but that's just knee-jerk conditioning. Tornado's happen too but we don't track down specific wind currents and put them in jail. Also, a sense of camaraderie, a sense of feeling connected with someone or some group might be based on the same wall, the same artifact, the same boundary, just expanded to an "us" and a "them" rather than a "me" and a "not-me". In that case, the associated emotions are positive. One sense that is in common between the two types of walls though, regardless of the polarity of associated emotion, is the phenomenon of resistance.
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 19:14:33 GMT -5
What (if anything) does this realization hinge on? Does something have to happen, or be seen, or realized, in order that 'nothing can be done' can be realized? Actually you can't do anything, there is an inner order for this to happen, that's an impersonal movement. But I tell you what has happen to me When I suffer I try to control the thoughts or divert the thoughts in some other direction which means I would try to think some happy thoughts, when I do this, it seems to be subsided, but later on time, again I would end up with new situation where I suffer, I would do the same practise of controlling those thoughts,In those days what I thought was one day in future this suffering would come to an end If I keep on controlling the thoughts, but this same situation kept on repeating in my life, then somewhere on the net, I have read that controlling never brings the end to suffering, but allowing would bring an end to this suffering, then I start allowing thoughts but then this allowing kept on repeating in my life, but later, I heard this seeing idea from Enigma, So I started to practise this 'seeing' technique, then I started to notice that this seeing too repeats, that's where the tremendous realization happens, whatever I do whether it's controlling,allowing,seeing would surely would be repeated by mind, because this all are creations of mind. So I realized that nothing can be done from my level, If do, I would end up with repeating those actions along with my suffering. Once I realized this great truth 'nothing can be done' that's where the suffering came to an end. This realization is called direct seeing. There is an another kind of realization is there, this kind of realization would suddenly hits you, once this happens, the recalling starts to happen, then everything would become clear to you. But I tell you, these realizations are something that happens from impersonal level though it includes all your mistake as a part it. It has it's own order to happen. Seeing = direct seeing
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 19:19:08 GMT -5
May be, but this can't be reached by some means(looking consistently) I didn't say it could.
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 19:23:11 GMT -5
Yes, we're talking about the nature of realization itself. I'm saying it's not hidden. enigma, yeah it's not hidden, I'm probably just over thinking it. Same thought occurred to me.
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 19:54:56 GMT -5
Probably depends on your definition of alone. I wouldn't rely on other people doing the job for you in this buiness, but zindarud seems to refer to some interconnectedness. I don't see a problem. I don't see a problem, either; but the thing is, enigma does not see it as a 'realization'. Probably wouldn't say it was a realization if I had said the opposite, either. It may not be one, that's OK. Only, it is a new thing for me. I don't see a problem either, so maybe we have a quarum? In a sense, you don't do it alone because 'you' don't do it at all. Another way to look at it is that your world is a reflection of your own boundaries, which keeps you focused on what you need to look at, whether you want to or not. Still, they're your boundaries, and your willingness and sincerity, or not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 23:27:15 GMT -5
Actually you can't do anything, there is an inner order for this to happen, that's an impersonal movement. But I tell you what has happen to me When I suffer I try to control the thoughts or divert the thoughts in some other direction which means I would try to think some happy thoughts, when I do this, it seems to be subsided, but later on time, again I would end up with new situation where I suffer, I would do the same practise of controlling those thoughts,In those days what I thought was one day in future this suffering would come to an end If I keep on controlling the thoughts, but this same situation kept on repeating in my life, then somewhere on the net, I have read that controlling never brings the end to suffering, but allowing would bring an end to this suffering, then I start allowing thoughts but then this allowing kept on repeating in my life, but later, I heard this seeing idea from Enigma, So I started to practise this 'seeing' technique, then I started to notice that this seeing too repeats, that's where the tremendous realization happens, whatever I do whether it's controlling,allowing,seeing would surely would be repeated by mind, because this all are creations of mind. So I realized that nothing can be done from my level, If do, I would end up with repeating those actions along with my suffering. Once I realized this great truth 'nothing can be done' that's where the suffering came to an end. This realization is called direct seeing. There is an another kind of realization is there, this kind of realization would suddenly hits you, once this happens, the recalling starts to happen, then everything would become clear to you. But I tell you, these realizations are something that happens from impersonal level though it includes all your mistake as a part it. It has it's own order to happen. Thanks for sharing, I have a couple of questions percolating but now's not a good time so I'll get back to you. Sure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 23:36:36 GMT -5
Realization is knowing the truth for certain, I am very sure, this seeing would not lead to the truth because this seeing is also another creation to the mind. Seeing would be re-created as any other creation. Not in any way that can be stated directly with an idea or described by a feeling, no. I am not talking about the idea or feeling, I am talking about the direct seeing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 23:39:02 GMT -5
There are certain things I know more than 100%, For an example, Happy/unhappy is the roller coaster, Freewill is illusion, Seeing never lead you to realize the truth, Seeing would be an another creation like controlling,allowing. Seeing is not better than controlling,allowing or any type of mind creation. Seeing is in fact another mind creation, But I would say clear knowing would break the illusion, but this clear knowing can't be caused from your level. When the realization happens, it's a sudden movement and once it happen and subsequently it would be revealed in thoughts, I would say it's kind of recalling starts to happen. There's no cause applicable to what's already the case. I am saying any technique can not be prescribed to achieve this realization,it's something automatically happens. There is an order for this to happen at an impersonal level, you have nothing to do with that.
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Post by laughter on Feb 21, 2015 1:03:24 GMT -5
There's no cause applicable to what's already the case. I am saying any technique can not be prescribed to achieve this realization,it's something automatically happens. There is an order for this to happen at an impersonal level, you have nothing to do with that. It's not an achievement, no, more like a birth right.
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