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Post by enigma on Feb 7, 2015 20:55:47 GMT -5
We can't know that thoughts are happening unless we are 'watching' from outside the thoughts. From that position, we can 'listen'. It can be deceiving because we typically identify ourselves as the thinker rather than the observer, and the thinker would not be able to step away from the thinking in order to observe the process. The average adult doesn't see a conflict with the idea of the thinker observing/hearing his own thoughts because he's learned to just accept that idea, but a child might notice a problem with it. The simple answer is, you are the observer and mind is talking to you. You are not the movement of mind, but rather the witness to that movement. I am the average adult. Do you think all noticing of thoughts is done by the observer? I ask because observer is a new concept for me. I want to understand a bit better before I use it in a talk. Thanks. Yes. Noticing that there is an observer of thoughts that is not engaged in the thinking, is actually a realization, though a relatively simple one. If you can find the right words to talk about it, it might even be obvious to a 10 year old before it is obvious to you.
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Post by runstill on Feb 7, 2015 21:26:12 GMT -5
For the rest of her life society will be telling her how important it is to use her mind to think stuff through , figure things out, to believe the thoughts of others that cause more thoughts to arise , its like being on a infinite hamster wheel that few will get off. Tell her thoughts come and go but she is never the thought, tell her if she finds her self not having thoughts its her true nature , tell her no 'thought' can see what is seen without a 'thought'... she may surprise you! Is the language of thoughts audible?If that ever happens call an exorcist....
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 7, 2015 21:27:19 GMT -5
We can't know that thoughts are happening unless we are 'watching' from outside the thoughts. From that position, we can 'listen'. It can be deceiving because we typically identify ourselves as the thinker rather than the observer, and the thinker would not be able to step away from the thinking in order to observe the process. The average adult doesn't see a conflict with the idea of the thinker observing/hearing his own thoughts because he's learned to just accept that idea, but a child might notice a problem with it. The simple answer is, you are the observer and mind is talking to you. You are not the movement of mind, but rather the witness to that movement. I am the average adult. Do you think all noticing of thoughts is done by the observer? I ask because observer is a new concept for me. I want to understand a bit better before I use it in a talk. Thanks. You are the observer, your daughter is the observer, it's really pretty simple.. the more explaining that is needed to achieve understanding, the more likely it is that the understanding is imagined.. caution is warranted when discussing existential beliefs with young people.. i once heard an answer that i liked for its ability to be built upon as the young person becomes more curious, and in synch with the level of understanding revealed.. it went something like: 'that's a discussion between you and your soul/spirit'..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 21:35:30 GMT -5
I am the average adult. Do you think all noticing of thoughts is done by the observer? I ask because observer is a new concept for me. I want to understand a bit better before I use it in a talk. Thanks. You are the observer, your daughter is the observer, it's really pretty simple.. the more explaining that is needed to achieve understanding, the more likely it is that the understanding is imagined.. caution is warranted when discussing existential beliefs with young people.. i once heard an answer that i liked for its ability to be built upon as the young person becomes more curious, and in synch with the level of understanding revealed.. it went something like: 'that's a discussion between you and your soul/spirit'.. Right. Or just 'what do you think?' I've found my 10-year old daughter to be incredibly insightful especially without all my heady mumbojumbo.
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Post by steven on Feb 7, 2015 22:20:37 GMT -5
Hi, I've been reading you for a while. I write now to ask advice about how to answer my (10 year old) daughter. Recently she asked "How do we talk to ourselves, I mean how does that voice talk in my head?"... I mumbled some things like "the brain... err.. some part of it.. tells... recorded words.. err.. the other part... listens" but she asked for a better explanation... I happened to be reading a psychology book for an exam, showed her some pictures (of dendrites, axons) but that didn't help either What can I tell her? Thanks. Note: I have only watched some videos from Adyashanti and Mooji, about Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than the last time you proposed a question from a school age girl ;-) Thoughts are your most basic essence, your conciousness, moving and dancing and playing, all your thoughts together make up your mind, and whatever else you do with your body and whatever happens around you is the reflection of your mind shining outward. So words spoken silently in your mind are movements of your conciousness that you are keeping inside, instead of letting those movements out into this shared space we call the world. Some movements of the mind are just for you, a kind of private exploration or private conversation with yourself, while other movements of the mind are meant to be shared with everyone else. Silent thoughts inside your mind happen when your conciousness wants to talk to itself in a private way, and spoken thoughts happen when your conciousness wants to have thoughts that are shared with other parts of itself. In a real life situation, talking to an actual 10 year old, it would probably be best to say: 'It's a mystery that no one really knows the answer to, maybe you should try to find out for everyone else.'
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 7, 2015 23:04:40 GMT -5
Hi, I've been reading you for a while. I write now to ask advice about how to answer my (10 year old) daughter. Recently she asked "How do we talk to ourselves, I mean how does that voice talk in my head?"... I mumbled some things like "the brain... err.. some part of it.. tells... recorded words.. err.. the other part... listens" but she asked for a better explanation... I happened to be reading a psychology book for an exam, showed her some pictures (of dendrites, axons) but that didn't help either What can I tell her? Thanks. Note: I have only watched some videos from Adyashanti and Mooji, about Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than the last time you proposed a question from a school age girl ;-) Thoughts are your most basic essence, your conciousness, moving and dancing and playing, all your thoughts together make up your mind, and whatever else you do with your body and whatever happens around you is the reflection of your mind shining outward. So words spoken silently in your mind are movements of your conciousness that you are keeping inside, instead of letting those movements out into this shared space we call the world. Some movements of the mind are just for you, a kind of private exploration or private conversation with yourself, while other movements of the mind are meant to be shared with everyone else. Silent thoughts inside your mind happen when your conciousness wants to talk to itself in a private way, and spoken thoughts happen when your conciousness wants to have thoughts that are shared with other parts of itself. In a real life situation, talking to an actual 10 year old, it would probably be best to say: 'It's a mystery that no one really knows the answer to, maybe you should try to find out for everyone else.' I would be more inclined to suggest that she find out 'for herself', there's already too many people telling others what they should think..
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Post by steven on Feb 7, 2015 23:27:58 GMT -5
Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than the last time you proposed a question from a school age girl ;-) Thoughts are your most basic essence, your conciousness, moving and dancing and playing, all your thoughts together make up your mind, and whatever else you do with your body and whatever happens around you is the reflection of your mind shining outward. So words spoken silently in your mind are movements of your conciousness that you are keeping inside, instead of letting those movements out into this shared space we call the world. Some movements of the mind are just for you, a kind of private exploration or private conversation with yourself, while other movements of the mind are meant to be shared with everyone else. Silent thoughts inside your mind happen when your conciousness wants to talk to itself in a private way, and spoken thoughts happen when your conciousness wants to have thoughts that are shared with other parts of itself. In a real life situation, talking to an actual 10 year old, it would probably be best to say: 'It's a mystery that no one really knows the answer to, maybe you should try to find out for everyone else.' I would be more inclined to suggest that she find out 'for herself', there's already too many people telling others what they should think.. Valid point.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 8, 2015 2:09:20 GMT -5
Hi Zindarud: Your daughter is extremely perceptive to have asked such a question, but to engage her at the level of her question, you, yourself, would need to understand much more. Her question could be answered with several types of questions, such as, "How do you talk to anyone?" This is a koan, but kids at her age are amazingly good at answering koans and understanding the issues they deal with. The problem is that if she answered that question at a direct non-conceptual level, you would not understand her answer. You could also ask her, "When you talk to someone, is there one person inside of you that talks, and another person inside of you that hears what's being said?" Here, too, if she answered directly, you would not understand her answer.
I once taught a science class to fifth and sixth graders in which I explained the difference between direct understanding and conceptual understanding. They understood the difference very quickly, but their teachers did not. I then proceeded to ask them science-related questions in two ways, one conceptual and one non-conceptual to illustrate the two different ways humans can interact with the world. For example, I asked them, "What is electricity?" and invited them to answer the question intellectually. They answered the question in a conventional way. I then said, "Okay, what is electricity, REALLY?" and invited them to answer the question non-conceptually (directly through the body). They went wild with laughter and with their answers, but the adults in the room had no idea what was going on.
I then went on to ask other koans, such as "What is the true nature of a dog, really?" (just to hammer the point home), and pandemonium broke out because they understood what I was asking in contrast to their usual schooling which primarily teaches interacting with the world conceptually. I used the word "really" to distinguish between when I was asking a question requiring a non-conceptual answer rather than a conceptual answer.
Children have not yet become locked into an adult mindset, so they are much closer to the truth than adults and far more perceptive.
A young child once asked Zen Master Seung Sahn an existential question, and SS looked at her with extreme attentiveness, and said very slowly, "You already understand the answer to that question." The little girl looked perplexed for a moment or two, but then her face lit up, she laughed, and she answered the koan. As she turned away, she looked back at SS, laughed, and said, "But I'm not going to tell anyone else that. They wouldn't understand."
FWIW, at the age of 7 my daughter could answer koans that I, as a 42-year old, had not yet penetrated, but as she grew older, she became unable to do so because she had learned to live in her head. At the age of 35 she had to have a refresher course in order to re-penetrate koans that she had answered effortlessly at the age of 7.
The best thing that you can do if she asks you similar questions in the future is to say, "I'm an adult, so I can't answer your question, but you can do it because deep down you already understand what you want to know." This will invite her to look within herself, and thereby discover what's going on. You could do that, too, but it would take you a lot longer than it would take her because she's not yet locked 100% into a conceptual way of interacting with the world.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 4:33:36 GMT -5
Is the language of thoughts audible? If that ever happens call an exorcist.... Do you have one you can recommend?
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Post by zin on Feb 8, 2015 7:00:05 GMT -5
"The whole of her-self is the iceberg." "Nope.....not for a ten year old." Hey zi.....I didn't understand your response? ? [edit: I just now understood what you said, Nope, this is not information for a ten year old.........I'll keep the post anyway..... I thought you were saying that for a ten year old, the whole of her-self is not the iceberg..... {that's me, not you}. ] I probably wasn't clear enough. I was just trying to make an analogy between self and iceberg. There is much about ourselves that we do not know about and do not understand. (snip)And then the voice in her head is only a very tiny part of all that. .......What I wanted to say hasn't come back yet........it had to do with a way to point out for herself, so that she could see for herself what's going on.......... ............................................. But from a nondual standpoint, much more is going on. The following is the sense I am a non-dualist. Where does the energy come from that we use every day as fuel for the body? It comes from the sun. In the center of the sun hydrogen is being transformed into helium, the result of the process is light in the form of gamma rays, which are deadly to us. The light from the sun started its journey 100,000 million years ago from the center of the sun. It bounces around for 100,000 million years in trying to reach the surface of the sun. In the process the deadly gamma rays are turned into photons. When a photon reaches the surface of the sun and leaves the sun it then takes eight minutes to reach the earth. And then through photosynthesis the photons are turned to chemical energy by plants. We then can eat the plants or eat animals who eat the plants. .......But then there would be no earth without the sun, and there would be no sun without being a part of the galaxy. And you could study thousands of facts from the standpoint of physics that make human beings possible, taking away one you have no human beings. This is called the Anthropic Principle, or the nonscientific name, the Goldilocks universe (not too "hard", not to "soft", but just right). Chuang Tzu expressed this idea over 2000 years ago. He said that when you walk across the ground, your feet touch only a small part of the earth, but the tons and tons of dirt underneath the part you walk on is what makes walking possible. Likewise, The Anthropic Principle tells us there are about twenty constants in physics which if any one were just a tiny fraction different, life would not be possible. Oh, probably it was me who was not clear. I wrote the replies under headache, after big homework fights. Of course, keep the post, I for one like galaxy talk Analogy between self and iceberg.. can be another thread subject, some other time. "What I wanted to say hasn't come back yet.": Write when it is back. zi!
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Post by zin on Feb 8, 2015 7:04:39 GMT -5
I am the average adult. Do you think all noticing of thoughts is done by the observer? I ask because observer is a new concept for me. I want to understand a bit better before I use it in a talk. Thanks. Yes. Noticing that there is an observer of thoughts that is not engaged in the thinking, is actually a realization, though a relatively simple one. If you can find the right words to talk about it, it might even be obvious to a 10 year old before it is obvious to you. What you write sounds like all the observers are the same observer, and that gives me a hilarious feeling! Thanks!
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Post by zin on Feb 8, 2015 7:14:06 GMT -5
I am the average adult. Do you think all noticing of thoughts is done by the observer? I ask because observer is a new concept for me. I want to understand a bit better before I use it in a talk. Thanks. You are the observer, your daughter is the observer, it's really pretty simple.. the more explaining that is needed to achieve understanding, the more likely it is that the understanding is imagined.. caution is warranted when discussing existential beliefs with young people.. i once heard an answer that i liked for its ability to be built upon as the young person becomes more curious, and in synch with the level of understanding revealed.. it went something like: 'that's a discussion between you and your soul/spirit'.. Yes I agree, more explaining clouds things. Also I said to myself "why didn't I say this?" when I read maxdprophet's words. Thanks.
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Post by zin on Feb 8, 2015 7:27:38 GMT -5
Hi, I've been reading you for a while. I write now to ask advice about how to answer my (10 year old) daughter. Recently she asked "How do we talk to ourselves, I mean how does that voice talk in my head?"... I mumbled some things like "the brain... err.. some part of it.. tells... recorded words.. err.. the other part... listens" but she asked for a better explanation... I happened to be reading a psychology book for an exam, showed her some pictures (of dendrites, axons) but that didn't help either What can I tell her? Thanks. Note: I have only watched some videos from Adyashanti and Mooji, about Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than Hi Question, this is a much nicer version of this inquiry than the last time you proposed a question from a school age girl ;-) Thoughts are your most basic essence, your conciousness, moving and dancing and playing, all your thoughts together make up your mind, and whatever else you do with your body and whatever happens around you is the reflection of your mind shining outward. So words spoken silently in your mind are movements of your conciousness that you are keeping inside, instead of letting those movements out into this shared space we call the world. Some movements of the mind are just for you, a kind of private exploration or private conversation with yourself, while other movements of the mind are meant to be shared with everyone else. Silent thoughts inside your mind happen when your conciousness wants to talk to itself in a private way, and spoken thoughts happen when your conciousness wants to have thoughts that are shared with other parts of itself. In a real life situation, talking to an actual 10 year old, it would probably be best to say: 'It's a mystery that no one really knows the answer to, maybe you should try to find out for everyone else.' Hi Steve, I've been reading this forum intermittently, and I remember waay back there was a thread about a mentally challenged teenage girl but I am not the one who started/wrote it. You wrote "whatever happens around you is the reflection of your mind shining outward": I do live this. And thanks for the thoughts/mind explanations. All my thoughts make up my mind, but why? Probably, it is just so
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Post by zin on Feb 8, 2015 7:42:16 GMT -5
Hi Zindarud: Your daughter is extremely perceptive to have asked such a question, but to engage her at the level of her question, you, yourself, would need to understand much more. Her question could be answered with several types of questions, such as, "How do you talk to anyone?" This is a koan, but kids at her age are amazingly good at answering koans and understanding the issues they deal with. The problem is that if she answered that question at a direct non-conceptual level, you would not understand her answer. You could also ask her, "When you talk to someone, is there one person inside of you that talks, and another person inside of you that hears what's being said?" Here, too, if she answered directly, you would not understand her answer. I once taught a science class to fifth and sixth graders in which I explained the difference between direct understanding and conceptual understanding. They understood the difference very quickly, but their teachers did not. I then proceeded to ask them science-related questions in two ways, one conceptual and one non-conceptual to illustrate the two different ways humans can interact with the world. For example, I asked them, "What is electricity?" and invited them to answer the question intellectually. They answered the question in a conventional way. I then said, "Okay, what is electricity, REALLY?" and invited them to answer the question non-conceptually (directly through the body). They went wild with laughter and with their answers, but the adults in the room had no idea what was going on. I then went on to ask other koans, such as "What is the true nature of a dog, really?" (just to hammer the point home), and pandemonium broke out because they understood what I was asking in contrast to their usual schooling which primarily teaches interacting with the world conceptually. I used the word "really" to distinguish between when I was asking a question requiring a non-conceptual answer rather than a conceptual answer. Children have not yet become locked into an adult mindset, so they are much closer to the truth than adults and far more perceptive. A young child once asked Zen Master Seung Sahn an existential question, and SS looked at her with extreme attentiveness, and said very slowly, "You already understand the answer to that question." The little girl looked perplexed for a moment or two, but then her face lit up, she laughed, and she answered the koan. As she turned away, she looked back at SS, laughed, and said, "But I'm not going to tell anyone else that. They wouldn't understand." FWIW, at the age of 7 my daughter could answer koans that I, as a 42-year old, had not yet penetrated, but as she grew older, she became unable to do so because she had learned to live in her head. At the age of 35 she had to have a refresher course in order to re-penetrate koans that she had answered effortlessly at the age of 7. The best thing that you can do if she asks you similar questions in the future is to say, "I'm an adult, so I can't answer your question, but you can do it because deep down you already understand what you want to know." This will invite her to look within herself, and thereby discover what's going on. You could do that, too, but it would take you a lot longer than it would take her because she's not yet locked 100% into a conceptual way of interacting with the world. Hi Zendancer, your fifth and sixth graders class reminded me of this: When my daughter was about five they had an end of the year celebration at the kindergarten. The children, about fifty of them, were on the stage behind a curtain. The curtain opened and they all began to sing a bit of Ode to Joy (of Beethoven). All those shining faces and the force of their singing, wow, hit me like a truck! Thanks for the advices.
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Post by enigma on Feb 8, 2015 10:08:22 GMT -5
Yes. Noticing that there is an observer of thoughts that is not engaged in the thinking, is actually a realization, though a relatively simple one. If you can find the right words to talk about it, it might even be obvious to a 10 year old before it is obvious to you. What you write sounds like all the observers are the same observer, and that gives me a hilarious feeling! Thanks! Yes, same observer.
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