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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 13:00:49 GMT -5
People answer this question differently. In my case, I would say that I found concrete answers to questions that put the issues totally to rest. To me the questions were important and the answers were even more important. Examples? 1. What is a tree, really ("das ding an sich")? Silently points to a tree. I realized the difference between the idea "tree" and what a tree IS. 2. What is a subatomic particle, really? It is an idea/image--an imaginary inference. I realized the difference between "reality" and models of reality. Models can be intellectually understood; reality cannot. Reality can only be apprehended or understood directly--through the body. 3. Who am I, really? I am "what is." Who I thought I was was a thought, only. 4. Is there a God? The totality of "what is" is a unified living presence that is vast and incomprehensible to the mind. Call it whatever you wish. Seeing THAT puts the issue to rest. My short answer would be "Yes, but it isn't what you think. What it IS cannot be imagined." 5. What should I do in a particular high-stakes personal real-life koan situation? After contemplation, the answer became crystal clear. I realized that I had to be true to the truth of what I am, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought about that decision, and it didn't matter what happened as a result of that decision. I realized how reality had to manifest through this particular body/mind in that particular situation. This realization led to vast freedom. 6. How is it possible for a person to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently? It isn't possible, because there is no person experiencing different states of mind. "What is" is a unified whole, and everything that happens happens within THAT. Another way of saying the same thing is that nothing ever happens; everything is simply an unfoldment of isness. I could list fifty more examples, but these are enough to provide the flavor of how things unfolded for this body/mind. Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger. Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-) For this body/mind there was a long list of questions for which answers were sought. It never let go of active seeking until every question had been answered but one. The list just got shorter and shorter until only one question was left. I knew that there was nothing I could do to find the answer to that question other than what I was already doing--staying attentive to "what is" and remaining substantially non-reflective--, so in a sense, the active seeking stopped at that point. The body/mind kept doing ATA-MT in a casual intermittent way, and periodically it did ATA-MT intensely (while on solo hikes and retreats). Several months after active seeking stopped, a realization occurred which answered my final question (informed mind), and that ended the search completely. The only times I can remember answers leading to more questions was during the first few years after an initial CC experience. That experience added dozens of new questions to my long list. It gave me the answers to 7 specific questions, but 20 new ones sprang up. Ha ha. Then, after starting to go on silent meditation retreats, many things happened that generated new questions related to what I might call "the path leading to silent presence." I suspect that this is what happens to most people who pursue such a path. A lot of new stuff happens, and the mind goes into warpspeed trying to fit everything into a new and larger model than the previous model. As soon as we realize that reality is not what we think it is, the mind goes wild trying to get a grip on what it actually is--much wilder than when we thought we knew. ha ha.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 13:26:40 GMT -5
Sure it does, if it's realized. ZD has talked about getting answers to tons of questions. I have also, though I didn't have as many questions as ZD. In the most wonderful of those moments, the most satisfying of those moments, did you find an answer, or did you release the question by seeing as no longer having the same relevance or importance? Ultimately, realization dissolves the questions. It's 'satisfying' nonetheless.
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 13:33:10 GMT -5
Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger. Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-) For this body/mind there was a long list of questions for which answers were sought. It never let go of active seeking until every question had been answered but one. The list just got shorter and shorter until only one question was left. I knew that there was nothing I could do to find the answer to that question other than what I was already doing--staying attentive to "what is" and remaining substantially non-reflective--, so in a sense, the active seeking stopped at that point. The body/mind kept doing ATA-MT in a casual intermittent way, and periodically it did ATA-MT intensely (while on solo hikes and retreats). Several months after active seeking stopped, a realization occurred which answered my final question (informed mind), and that ended the search completely. The only times I can remember answers leading to more questions was during the first few years after an initial CC experience. That experience added dozens of new questions to my long list. It gave me the answers to 7 specific questions, but 20 new ones sprang up. Ha ha. Then, after starting to go on silent meditation retreats, many things happened that generated new questions related to what I might call "the path leading to silent presence." I suspect that this is what happens to most people who pursue such a path. A lot of new stuff happens, and the mind goes into warpspeed trying to fit everything into a new and larger model than the previous model. As soon as we realize that reality is not what we think it is, the mind goes wild trying to get a grip on what it actually is--much wilder than when we thought we knew. ha ha. Since I've been meditating/being mindful, I've gotten that feeling too - the way you describe it hits a note within me, about mind going into warpspeed and trying to fit everything into 'reality' (my way of putting it). This has happened several times recently. I don't know if you've mentioned anything more about the questions you had on the forum somewhere, but I'd like to know if all of those questions were existential ones or if some were personal or what - if you don't mind explaining. I have yet to get the feeling that reality isn't what we think it is...I suspect that whatever future realizations may come to me, will be 'in addition to' present reality.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 13:38:31 GMT -5
This is how it works right... I don't have a clue what WIBIGO means, so when it's said, no model or meaning occurs to my mind. That's the thing, innit. You're unnecessarily complicating it. There are various levels and contexts of what's going on, which all involve seeing through illusions. Revealing unconscious processes is one level, and self realization is another.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 13:40:15 GMT -5
This is quibbling, but seeing and looking are synonyms. ...empty mind still mind sees/looks; active mind thinking mind thinks... Yes.
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 13:41:08 GMT -5
I was addressing poppee and he's already understood what I was saying and responded to it. yes, and no Oh! Which part is yes? Enigma thinks he needs to know.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 13:44:51 GMT -5
Actually, he had the same question I did, and I didn't see where he indicated he understood, or even responded. You gave him the same sort of unrelated answer you gave me. I don't think you know what you mean, which is weird. It's not weird, it's poetry, silver is a poet. Poets write stuff they don't understand all the time, it's practically a "job" description. I'd be willing to guess that you don't read much poetry. You need but look at silver's avatars and know she's an artist. You're a head person, silver is a heart person, you don't speak the same language. You really do need to relax a little E, chill out. Automagically is a great word. ...........you know, like meatphysics......... .........you don't have to understand it.......you feel it in your bones.....automagically is probably like.....Harry Pottering......... ..........it was like the equanimity was imagined, not real........automagically....Harry Pottering.....6 of 1....1/2 dozen of the other.......what silver said makes perfect sense....... You don't know what you're talking about. Satsang Poetry
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 13:55:58 GMT -5
People answer this question differently. In my case, I would say that I found concrete answers to questions that put the issues totally to rest. To me the questions were important and the answers were even more important. Examples? 1. What is a tree, really ("das ding an sich")? Silently points to a tree. I realized the difference between the idea "tree" and what a tree IS. 2. What is a subatomic particle, really? It is an idea/image--an imaginary inference. I realized the difference between "reality" and models of reality. Models can be intellectually understood; reality cannot. Reality can only be apprehended or understood directly--through the body. 3. Who am I, really? I am "what is." Who I thought I was was a thought, only. 4. Is there a God? The totality of "what is" is a unified living presence that is vast and incomprehensible to the mind. Call it whatever you wish. Seeing THAT puts the issue to rest. My short answer would be "Yes, but it isn't what you think. What it IS cannot be imagined." 5. What should I do in a particular high-stakes personal real-life koan situation? After contemplation, the answer became crystal clear. I realized that I had to be true to the truth of what I am, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought about that decision, and it didn't matter what happened as a result of that decision. I realized how reality had to manifest through this particular body/mind in that particular situation. This realization led to vast freedom. 6. How is it possible for a person to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently? It isn't possible, because there is no person experiencing different states of mind. "What is" is a unified whole, and everything that happens happens within THAT. Another way of saying the same thing is that nothing ever happens; everything is simply an unfoldment of isness. I could list fifty more examples, but these are enough to provide the flavor of how things unfolded for this body/mind. Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger. Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-) Imaginary answers have their own boundaries, and these lead to more imaginary questions. Realization resolves the questions by revealing the misconceptions.
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 13:57:12 GMT -5
It's not weird, it's poetry, silver is a poet. Poets write stuff they don't understand all the time, it's practically a "job" description. I'd be willing to guess that you don't read much poetry. You need but look at silver's avatars and know she's an artist. You're a head person, silver is a heart person, you don't speak the same language. You really do need to relax a little E, chill out. Automagically is a great word. ...........you know, like meatphysics......... .........you don't have to understand it.......you feel it in your bones.....automagically is probably like.....Harry Pottering......... ..........it was like the equanimity was imagined, not real........automagically....Harry Pottering.....6 of 1....1/2 dozen of the other.......what silver said makes perfect sense....... You don't know what you're talking about. Satsang PoetryYeah. I was gonna say, frogdaddy is quite the poet sometimes! It's just that Mars / Venus - masculine / feminine factor: some people think one 'type' of poetry or the other is lame.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 14:03:32 GMT -5
yes, and no Oh! Which part is yes? Enigma thinks he needs to know. He might be able to explain it to both of us.
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Post by figgles on Jan 17, 2015 14:05:10 GMT -5
People answer this question differently. In my case, I would say that I found concrete answers to questions that put the issues totally to rest. To me the questions were important and the answers were even more important. Examples? 1. What is a tree, really ("das ding an sich")? Silently points to a tree. I realized the difference between the idea "tree" and what a tree IS. 2. What is a subatomic particle, really? It is an idea/image--an imaginary inference. I realized the difference between "reality" and models of reality. Models can be intellectually understood; reality cannot. Reality can only be apprehended or understood directly--through the body. 3. Who am I, really? I am "what is." Who I thought I was was a thought, only. 4. Is there a God? The totality of "what is" is a unified living presence that is vast and incomprehensible to the mind. Call it whatever you wish. Seeing THAT puts the issue to rest. My short answer would be "Yes, but it isn't what you think. What it IS cannot be imagined." 5. What should I do in a particular high-stakes personal real-life koan situation? After contemplation, the answer became crystal clear. I realized that I had to be true to the truth of what I am, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought about that decision, and it didn't matter what happened as a result of that decision. I realized how reality had to manifest through this particular body/mind in that particular situation. This realization led to vast freedom. 6. How is it possible for a person to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently? It isn't possible, because there is no person experiencing different states of mind. "What is" is a unified whole, and everything that happens happens within THAT. Another way of saying the same thing is that nothing ever happens; everything is simply an unfoldment of isness. I could list fifty more examples, but these are enough to provide the flavor of how things unfolded for this body/mind. Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger.Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-) Yup Steve, rezzing very much with that. To invoke the now weary 'ol mountain metaphor; 2nd (position) peace, is conditional upon pat answers to existential questions, at 3rd position, not knowing is A-okay...as you say, "no discomfort"..... there's no longer any impetus or urge, and most importantly, 'need' to 'know' as there was at "no mountain".
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 14:06:37 GMT -5
Yeah. I was gonna say, frogdaddy is quite the poet sometimes! It's just that Mars / Venus - masculine / feminine factor: some people think one 'type' of poetry or the other is lame. Yeah, it's the pearl diver thingy. Mind without heart is sterile. Heart without mind is sentimental. The pearl diver takes all to the depths, His courage and his wits, His wonder and his wisdom. One eye for beauty, And the other for clarity.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 14:07:00 GMT -5
Silver: 99% of my questions were existential, but along the way one or two personal life situations became problematic. Because I'm primarily a thinker rather than a feeler, the questions were always highly specific. In one situation that seemed to seriously challenge the core of my being it was simply, "Faced with this serious issue, what should I do?" The answer that arose after a period of intense contemplation was, "I must be true to what I am regardless of the consequences." The body knew the answer to the question, but a realization had to occur in order for the mind to understand and become informed that there was no real choice. The quandary had been a mind-quandary, only. Once the truth was seen I knew what to do. I had no way of knowing what would happen as a result of attaining clarity concerning the situation, but it didn't really matter. I was so certain of what I had to do that nothing could have made me question my resolution.
Everyone has the capability of discovering the truth concerning any existential (or personal) question that might arise, but to do so requires that the mind must learn what the body already knows. Another way of putting this is that the mind and body must become psychologically unified. Meditation/contemplation is a means of attaining that kind of unity and overcoming split-mind thinking. Most people live in their heads, and all of their problems are generated by thoughts. If there are no thoughts, there are no problems. When there are no thoughts, there is only the perfect unfolding of "what is." Tzu's "still mind" admonition is pointing to the same thing.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 14:07:36 GMT -5
Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger. Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-) Imaginary answers have their own boundaries, and these lead to more imaginary questions. Realization resolves the questions by revealing the misconceptions. Yes.
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Post by figgles on Jan 17, 2015 14:11:58 GMT -5
An answer does not satisfy the appetite of the questioner, it only increases it. ;-) Sure it does, if it's realized. ZD has talked about getting answers to tons of questions. I have also, though I didn't have as many questions as ZD. I thought realization meant a falling away/absence, and not a presence? You now seem to be saying that you have 'realized' certain answers that satisfied your appetite...? An answer to an existential question is a presence, not an absence. If the question goes away because a pat 'answer' was arrived at, that's adding more to your spiritual knapsack, not lightening your load.
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